Another one for the drivers re: Stop boards

[adc82140]

Hello,

I've noticed recently the FGW trains (3 coaches long) at Guildford stop at different points along the platform depending on which driver you get. There is no 3 car stop board on platform 8, only a 4/5/6 car stop board.

Is there official guidance for what happens in this case, or is it up to driver discretion? From what I can tell, some drivers stop at the 4/5/6 car board, others seem to estimate where the beginning of the second coach of a 4 car would be and stop there, ie 1 coach length short of the board.

It's not a huge issue, just that if I'm waiting on platform 8 and want to travel in the front coach, I'm never sure exactly where to stand. It can be the difference between getting a seat and not getting one during the evening rush!!

 

[driver9000]

If there is no car stop marker for your length of train it is up to you to stop so it is accommodated in the platform. Some platforms have a generic S marker for all trains to stop at. If I stop at a platform with no car marker for my length of train, I will use my judgement for stopping in the platform.

 

[strange6]

Easiest way would be to stop right at the end of the platform perimeter, LU style. Some of these 185's I see around peak-time going into Manchester are very long, so it would particularly apply to them!

 

[O L Leigh]

The "Car Stop" boards are used primarily for DOO passenger services because there is no guard onboard to check that a train is fully into the platform before releasing the doors, although they could still be required for other services where the driver retains control over the doors. Therefore the driver needs to know how far along the platform to stop in order that the entire train is accommodated. At staffed stations they can also indicate where to stop so that platform staff can get a good view along the train for despatch purposes.

However, unless there are specific reasons why a service should stop at a particular point along the platform, it seems that trains operated by a driver and guard do not have such critical tolerances on stopping points. That said, I'm sure that drivers are given stopping points by their instructors when training so that they have an idea about where along the platform they should be stopping.

O L Leigh

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I use my discretion in those instances, and even then usually stop in the spot where the guy who taught me the route usually stops. It's quite a dull answer I know.

 

[adc82140]

Thanks guys for your comprehensive answers

 

[N Levers]

These are great answers.

I always asumed that they would stop at the first bigger number...

 

[pendolino]

Personally, if I'm driving a 3-car and there's no 3 car mark, I'll stop at the 4 car mark. There's no ambiguity then, I know the entire train is on the platform.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The "Car Stop" boards are used primarily for DOO passenger services because there is no guard onboard to check that a train is fully into the platform before releasing the doors, although they could still be required for other services where the driver retains control over the doors. Therefore the driver needs to know how far along the platform to stop in order that the entire train is accommodated. At staffed stations they can also indicate where to stop so that platform staff can get a good view along the train for despatch purposes.

However, unless there are specific reasons why a service should stop at a particular point along the platform, it seems that trains operated by a driver and guard do not have such critical tolerances on stopping points. That said, I'm sure that drivers are given stopping points by their instructors when training so that they have an idea about where along the platform they should be stopping.

O L Leigh

I know you work for a different TOC to me so local instructions may differ, but if I was to stop anywhere other than the correct stop mark on the platform (regardless of whether the service is DOO or with a guard), I would be in for a stiff talking to (to put it politely).

 

[Crossover]

Interesting and is a topic I have wondered about before.

I don't think the platforms at Stafford have stop boards and that may be why on my late night train last week the train stopped at platform 4 right up the end of the platform, such that the back of the train was not far off being beyond the steps! I put it down to the driver forgetting he only had a 4 car 220 at his disposal!!!

 

[NSEFAN]

I've seen passengers be confused by car stop signs before, thinking they were the sign for the platform!

Out of interest, when were standard stop signs introduced? The 1970s?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

These are great answers.

I always asumed that they would stop at the first bigger number...

It's not always necessary to do that. If you arrive with a four car train and the next biggest number is the six car stop board then drawing right up to it might mean half of the passengers waiting on the platform now have a 40 yard walk to the nearest set of doors, and all of those people will be trying to board the train through that same set of doors. If you see a six car board and you know you have four on, then what is wrong with stopping about two cars short of the six car board?

 

[barrykas]

The rule book (Module TW2 in this case) says the following:

You must stop your train as indicated by the train stop markers.

Where train stop markers are not provided, you must not stop your train with the first coach beyond the platform, except when:

• authorised to do so, or
• the train is too long for the platform.

Which is rather ambiguous when it comes to what you're supposed to do if there's no specific stop board provided for your length of train.

If I was a driver, however, I'd be inclined to go for the next stop board above the length of the train, doubly so if DOO and the mirror/monitors was by the stop board.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[turbo mick]

for me when iam driving i stop at the bottom of the stairs of the overbridge london end of platform 8 and at the stop board tunnel end near the signal

 

[driver9000]

The part about there being no marker for your train gives you the allowance to stop so that the train is within the platform as long as you don't run the off the end of the platform. When I'm driving a 2 or 3 car train and there is only a 4 car or higher board I will stop short of the marker as it doesn't apply to my train - so long as the whole of my train is in the platform there is no problem and it saves passengers a longer walk. I usually aim for footbridge steps, subways or another exit, when I learnt the routes I work over I was taught common stopping marks. If there is an S marker then I will take all trains regardless of length to the board. Should I manage to stop short for any reason and the train is hanging off the platforms then the Guard will give 6 on the buzzer to tell me to draw forward.

 

[strange6]

Should I manage to stop short for any reason and the train is hanging off the platforms then the Guard will give 6 on the buzzer to tell me to draw forward.

have you ever done that?

 

[driver9000]

have you ever done that?

Once or twice.

 

[strange6]

Once or twice.

Good, honest answer

 

[causton]

Obviously this doesn't really apply as much in DOO areas - which is why I believe FCC took out the 3/4 car stop at Hatfield's platform 3 (maybe 2 as well?) to save the cost of a second set of trackside monitors - so now all the trains stop right at the end!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It happens to a certain extent on DOO stations too. Haddenham & Thame and Bicester North are prime examples of where the driver can (and does) use his or her discretion on where to stop.

 

[GearJammer]

Erm sorry to go a bit off topic but um.... FGW at Guildford? I did'nt know FGW served Guildford, what service is this? I always thought Guildford was only served by SWT?

 

[driver9000]

Erm sorry to go a bit off topic but um.... FGW at Guildford? I did'nt know FGW served Guildford, what service is this? I always thought Guildford was only served by SWT?

Reading to Gatwick Airport.

 

[Minilad]

When we have ride assessments one of the things the DTM looks for is stopping at the relevant stop board. You would be advised about stopping at them if you didn't
Some of our smaller stations have precision stop boards if the platform is a tight fit

 

[pendolino]

Obviously this doesn't really apply as much in DOO areas - which is why I believe FCC took out the 3/4 car stop at Hatfield's platform 3 (maybe 2 as well?) to save the cost of a second set of trackside monitors - so now all the trains stop right at the end!

This is only an assumption, but it's possible that may be to reduce 'stop short' incidents.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen passengers be confused by car stop signs before, thinking they were the sign for the platform!

Out of interest, when were standard stop signs introduced? The 1970s?

Finsbury Park has car stop signs on platforms 5/6 which are generally followed accurately, but on platform 1 the driver rarely stops at the stop sign - which means it's near impossible to ever be in the right position for the doors! But, it's not a problem as the driver is merely looking for the CD and RA sign.

(It is a problem when the dispatcher isn't looking and goes from CD to RA straight away without turning around, but that's another story).

FCC has tried to confuse people at Drayton Park where it has reversed the colours of the platform signs and the car stop signs. However, the size of the signs should be a clue! Not that many people use that station, and those that do probably know which way they're going!

Now at Old Street, the train can often stop at different positions even though it's a DOO train and the driver has monitors to look at. If the train can be up to two metres further ahead than another time, how do they clearly see the display given LCD screens have a fairly narrow viewing angle?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Obviously this doesn't really apply as much in DOO areas - which is why I believe FCC took out the 3/4 car stop at Hatfield's platform 3 (maybe 2 as well?) to save the cost of a second set of trackside monitors - so now all the trains stop right at the end!

They've still got the CCTV and screens for platform 2, so 4-car trains stop where they should (nearest the steps) but there were only mirrors for platform 3 (where most of the trains stop) and so now there's a single 'S' stop at the far end. Great for a 3-car 313, not. As you may have seen, some drivers still stop where they used to, even though the markings on the platform edge have been covered, and don't go all the way down.

FCC still hasn't put a speaker down at the far end of platform 3 either, but it doesn't matter as the volume is so low the only place you can hear anything is in the main ticket hall!!

What gets me is that Network Rail has installed CCTV and screens at Potters Bar and New Barnet (and maybe others) but Hatfield seems to have been ignored. Even the new bridge/lifts has been shelved for the millionth time too.

 

[causton]

What gets me is that Network Rail has installed CCTV and screens at Potters Bar and New Barnet (and maybe others) but Hatfield seems to have been ignored. Even the new bridge/lifts has been shelved for the millionth time too.

New Southgate at least as well - I know. Hatfield is just being abandoned - both as a station and as a town in general!

 

[HugePilchard]

I've seen passengers be confused by car stop signs before, thinking they were the sign for the platform!

"The train now standing at platforms 4, 5 and 6..."

 

[Dr.iver]

Obviously this doesn't really apply as much in DOO areas - which is why I believe FCC took out the 3/4 car stop at Hatfield's platform 3 (maybe 2 as well?) to save the cost of a second set of trackside monitors - so now all the trains stop right at the end!

Err no - as inconvenient as it is for Hatfield passengers the S stop board on platform 3 was introduced due to the large number of stop short incidents that were occurring, and there is only a poor quality mirror to use. I always use the S board as it helps save my job, any driver that stops anywhere else although commendable from a passenger point of view does take a risk that mgmt would and do frown upon.
IMHO all DOO trains should stop at the far end of any platform to reduce the stop short incidents

 

[island]

Irish Rail seems to manage without stop boards. But this makes it a pain in various body parts for the pax when a train that's less than half the length of the platform can choose its own place to stop...

 

[mumrar]

Whilst on the subject of stop boards you have reminded me about Audley End.

On the London bound platform there is a 4car stop board that precedes a 2 car one. Very odd.

 

[O L Leigh]

AXC have their own 2 and 3 "Car Stop" boards at Audley End. Quite why they're as far down the platform as they are I cannot fathom. The only plausible explanation is that this is the best location to give the guard an uninterrupted view of the train.

O L Leigh