Antisocial behaviour on trains

[Merle Haggard]

On the subject of the screaming and uncontrolled children. Would it be fair to fight fire with fire? Does anyone know where I can get a saxophone? I'm sure I could make a sound just as piercing and irritating whilst I'm learning

 

[Peter0124]

On Voyagers the Quiet Coach also contains the wheelchair space. Two issues result. Firstly you do get the odd occurrence where a wheelchair user occupies their space and due to their disabilities may create a lot of noise. Secondly (and much more commonly) a family with a pushchair will occupy the space and the rest of the carriage has to put up with screaming kids.

That is an example of poor design. Not the fact theres a wheelchair space in there (some disabled people might want the quiet coach). But the fact its also used by prams/pushchairs, and might be the only one on the 5 car train.

The quiet coach should really be the one beside First Class.

I would support a blanket ban on young children in quiet coaches (with exceptions for neurodiverse children). But how that gets enforced I don't know. Maybe only really enforceable on longer express trains like the Glasgow-Euston's.

 

[D6130]

On the subject of the screaming and uncontrolled children. Would it be fair to fight fire with fire? Does anyone know where I can get a saxophone? I'm sure I could make a sound just as piercing and irritating whilst I'm learning

An alternative strategy - should you be unable to obtain or afford a saxaphone - would be to play a YouTube trad jazz video at full volume on your phone. Should have the same effect more-or-less!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

An alternative strategy - should you be unable to obtain or afford a saxaphone - would be to play a YouTube trad jazz video at full volume on your phone. Should have the same effect more-or-less!

Or just start screaming and crying yourself!
A grown human can probably easily out-screech a child.

 

[Krokodil]

On the subject of the screaming and uncontrolled children. Would it be fair to fight fire with fire? Does anyone know where I can get a saxophone? I'm sure I could make a sound just as piercing and irritating whilst I'm learning

Wouldn't a recorder be better?

That is an example of poor design. Not the fact theres a wheelchair space in there (some disabled people might want the quiet coach). But the fact its also used by prams/pushchairs, and might be the only one on the 5 car train.

The first aspect of poor design is that a Voyager is only formed of five coaches. It just gets worse from there. If only we had designated family carriages like SBB does.

Or just start screaming and crying yourself!
A grown human can probably easily out-screech a child.

They couldn't achieve the same piercing pitch though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is an example of poor design. Not the fact theres a wheelchair space in there (some disabled people might want the quiet coach). But the fact its also used by prams/pushchairs, and might be the only one on the 5 car train.

The quiet coach should really be the one beside First Class.

I would support a blanket ban on young children in quiet coaches (with exceptions for neurodiverse children). But how that gets enforced I don't know. Maybe only really enforceable on longer express trains like the Glasgow-Euston's.

On longer trains a dedicated family coach laid out as all tables, with a play area etc would be good.

 

[Purple Train]

On the subject of the screaming and uncontrolled children. Would it be fair to fight fire with fire? Does anyone know where I can get a saxophone? I'm sure I could make a sound just as piercing and irritating whilst I'm learning

"I once had a whim and I had to obey it
To buy a French horn in a second-hand shop,
I polished it up and I started to play it
In spite of the neighbours, who begged me to stop."
(Flanders and Swann, Ill Wind)

I suspect a piccolo would be a better option than a saxophone.



My best plan would be to storm out of the carriage, start playing The Phantom of the Opera, and storm majestically back in again to the accompaniment of the opening organ riff. Then, if that doesn't work, take up position in the vestibule outside the lavatory, rope in some willing volunteers, and start line-dancing. Not to Phantom though, that won't work!

 

[Ladder23]

I have this experience in a local food restaurant I visit often, although it’s nothing of expense it’s beside the point, you can’t ignore it either, if anything it aggravates you so much you listen in more without meaning to

 

[Halwynd]

I watched a YouTube video last night of a vlogger making a trip from Penzance to the Isles of Scilly on the Scillonian III a few days ago. Before departure the general safety announcements included a request for passengers to only use audio and video with headphones, much to the approval of the vlogger.

What's the point of railway by-laws if the TOCs merely pick and choose which of them they enforce? It's time they acted before a passenger confrontation becomes nasty.

 

[trebor79]

I remember a few years ago on an evening train from Norwich along the Breckland line, there was a particularly uncouth family sat at a bay. Kids (aged about 6 and 9) swearing, parents swearing. Every station we stopped at, one of the "adults" would "joke" "Oh, we're at x, it's a f***ing s***hole [obviously didn't get the irony when they alighted at Thetford, as I privately predicted".
Things only got worse when some argy bargy started between the 2 kids, when on of the "adults" intervened the kid spat at her, so she spat back at him hurling a torrent of expletives, and then they all started spitting at each other. they were still effing and jeffing and spitting when they got off.

Unbelievable.

 

[AdamWW]

So I've now been given a gobful of abuse by a woman on a train for politely asking if she'd turn the rubbish she was playing out on full volume down a little (not even off) so I couldn't hear it over the music from my earphones.

A while back I politely asked someone to turn the volume down on a train.

He refused, and complained that I was in his "personal space". He was in a window seat, I was standing in the aisle.

Under the circumstances I think accusing me of being a "Karen" was perhaps a little rich.

 

[Intercity110]

I remember a few years ago on an evening train from Norwich along the Breckland line, there was a particularly uncouth family sat at a bay. Kids (aged about 6 and 9) swearing, parents swearing. Every station we stopped at, one of the "adults" would "joke" "Oh, we're at x, it's a f***ing s***hole [obviously didn't get the irony when they alighted at Thetford, as I privately predicted".
Things only got worse when some argy bargy started between the 2 kids, when on of the "adults" intervened the kid spat at her, so she spat back at him hurling a torrent of expletives, and then they all started spitting at each other. they were still effing and jeffing and spitting when they got off.

Unbelievable.

not that they do much to help, but isn't spitting against the railway byelaws?

 

[al78]

accusing me of being a "Karen"

is another example of the UK population trying to turn into Americans (which is where that term came from, along with "woke").

 

[physics34]

Basically there needs to a campaign of some sort to try to correct this. In the london area im sorry to say its generally foreign people who play things/have conversations on loudspeaker. No regard for anyone else.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Basically there needs to a campaign of some sort to try to correct this.

Agreed.

In the london area im sorry to say its generally foreign people who play things/have conversations on loudspeaker. No regard for anyone else.

Of the last three offenders I've come across, all were white British. The abusive woman referred to above was a Scot, then the one on the later train (on which it didn't persist for very long, so I didn't do anything) was a Scouse woman's kids. The lad I referred to was from Aylesbury (based on where he got off).

Having said that, your observation doesn't seem to wide of the mark when it comes to phone conversations (rather than music/TV) - it does genuinely almost seem that, to paraphrase the old BT advert, that Asian cultures think it's good to talk but European ones think it's better to text, but I find those nowhere near as annoying as after all they could just be a conversation on the train, and when done on speaker they do seem to be at the same sort of volume - people shouting into phones tends to happen when NOT using speaker.

 

[Crepello]

I remember a few years ago on an evening train from Norwich along the Breckland line, there was a particularly uncouth family sat at a bay. Kids (aged about 6 and 9) swearing, parents swearing. Every station we stopped at, one of the "adults" would "joke" "Oh, we're at x, it's a f***ing s***hole [obviously didn't get the irony when they alighted at Thetford, as I privately predicted".
Things only got worse when some argy bargy started between the 2 kids, when on of the "adults" intervened the kid spat at her, so she spat back at him hurling a torrent of expletives, and then they all started spitting at each other. they were still effing and jeffing and spitting when they got off.

Unbelievable.

All too believable, alas
Problem is, it's widely tolerated in the UK - and indeed, had you addressed them I don't doubt you'd have become a target for all four.
Was pleased to see a situation handled rather better in the US, within recent months: I was aboard an Amtrak twixt DC and NYC; a young female felt that rules didn't apply to her, and that she could travel without a ticket wherever she pleased.
The conductor didn't dally but continued with his duty. At the *very* next station, Amtrak PD boarded for a short conversation, which ended in jewelry being applied. Zero delay to train. And... who knew... if you don't accept this crap, it happens *much* less frequently!

 

[WesternBiker]

All too believable, alas
Problem is, it's widely tolerated in the UK - and indeed, had you addressed them I don't doubt you'd have become a target for all four.
Was pleased to see a situation handled rather better in the US, within recent months: I was aboard an Amtrak twixt DC and NYC; a young female felt that rules didn't apply to her, and that she could travel without a ticket wherever she pleased.
The conductor didn't dally but continued with his duty. At the *very* next station, Amtrak PD boarded for a short conversation, which ended in jewelry being applied. Zero delay to train. And... who knew... if you don't accept this crap, it happens *much* less frequently!

That was my experience of the Acela Express too: a very firm (and very traditionally uniformed) conductor saying at each stop, "X and Y are the quiet cars: and by quiet, that means no telephone conversations, no music audible to other passengers, and no conversation above a quiet whisper". And he came through and enforced it between each stop.

 

[greyman42]

Agreed.



Of the last three offenders I've come across, all were white British. The abusive woman referred to above was a Scot, then the one on the later train (on which it didn't persist for very long, so I didn't do anything) was a Scouse woman's kids. The lad I referred to was from Aylesbury (based on where he got off).

Having said that, your observation doesn't seem to wide of the mark when it comes to phone conversations (rather than music/TV) - it does genuinely almost seem that, to paraphrase the old BT advert, that Asian cultures think it's good to talk but European ones think it's better to text, but I find those nowhere near as annoying as after all they could just be a conversation on the train, and when done on speaker they do seem to be at the same sort of volume - people shouting into phones tends to happen when NOT using speaker.

I find that people from the southern European countries and the Chinese tend to just about shout at each other in the course of a normal conversation.

 

[D6130]

I find that people from the southern European countries and the Chinese tend to just about shout at each other in the course of a normal conversation.

....not to mention most Americans!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Or just start screaming and crying yourself! A grown human can probably easily out-screech a child.

Judging by the behaviour of a former manager of mine who screeched "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YOU DOING IT WRONG" or "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE NAH THEN YOU LISTEN TO ME" when they themselves screwed the job up for everyone else is more or less around the same decibel range as a screaming child. Either way both irritating.

I remember a few years ago on an evening train from Norwich along the Breckland line, there was a particularly uncouth family sat at a bay. Kids (aged about 6 and 9) swearing, parents swearing. Every station we stopped at, one of the "adults" would "joke" "Oh, we're at x, it's a f***ing s***hole [obviously didn't get the irony when they alighted at Thetford, as I privately predicted". Things only got worse when some argy bargy started between the 2 kids, when on of the "adults" intervened the kid spat at her, so she spat back at him hurling a torrent of expletives, and then they all started spitting at each other. they were still effing and jeffing and spitting when they got off.

Unbelievable.

How I look forward to buying a car. If some feral uncouth family did that near me I'd be wanting them off the train at the next stop.

On longer trains a dedicated family coach laid out as all tables, with a play area etc would be good.

I cannot imagine how long that'd last with jam/chocolate/mud/crayon/excrement being mushed into the seats, along with a feral family or two screaming at each other with spilt drink all over the table/floor and in the usb sockets. Play area would be littered with discarded corporation food wrappers.

What to me is even worse is the content matter of some of the lyrics. The bad language is not pleasant, but the sexual references of what the boys are doing to the girls, or even worse their bitches, can be quite offensive.

Unfortunatley I think rap music has a lot to do with twisting the minds of the young and has lead us to where we are with chronic antisocial behaviour.

I recall one lad who I was in school with who'd boom rap in the middle of class, until I turned to him and said would you do what this moron rapping about to your own wife. If you do then it would be extremely distasteful. He soon turned it off.

 

[Purple Train]

It’s bad enough that you get people playing music of that type at such loud volumes on public transport and in other public places. What to me is even worse is the content matter of some of the lyrics. The bad language is not pleasant, but the sexual references of what the boys are going to the girls, or even worse their bitches, can be quite offensive. I was on a tram in Manchester once where a lady felt extremely threatened and offended by the content of some of this music played loudly. She spoke to the lad playing the music and he became very abusive towards her. Fortunately someone got off quickly at the next stop and informed the driver who refused to move the tram until he got off. Following pressure from other passengers he eventually got off shouting various expletives at everyone as he did so. Fortunately he did get off, but again what weapons could he have been carrying.

To be honest - and not to condone it - but you could probably find that kind of language on every secondary-school playground in the country. It's a very sad indictment of our society, but there we are. As someone of the same generation, I'm not really looking forward to suffering 40+ years of them being my work colleagues!

 

[AdamWW]

How I look forward to buying a car.

Then you can experience the delights of road rage.

I cannot imagine how long that'd last with jam/chocolate/mud/crayon/excrement being mushed into the seats, along with a feral family or two screaming at each other with spilt drink all over the table/floor and in the usb sockets. Play area would be littered with discarded corporation food wrappers.

It seemed to work OK when GWR kept an all-table coach on their HSTs as the family carriage.

I've certainly come across my share of annoying behaviour on trains, but either I'm lucky or this thread is exaggerating how much of a problem there is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've certainly come across my share of annoying behaviour on trains, but either I'm lucky or this thread is exaggerating how much of a problem there is.

What I do think is that there's a major north-south divide on it. As a former Northerner I find this quite sad, but I find that ASB on medium distance trains into London (LNR, GWR, Chiltern etc) is limited to mild annoyances like playing the footy out loud on phones and maybe a bit of drunken loudness on Saturday evening "vomit comets", whereas on similar services around Northern cities (e.g. TPE) it gets far worse, with a rather larger proportion of passengers showing a complete lack of etiquette. By that I don't mean "talking to each other" as is verboten down South, I mean rudeness, aggression, feral kids, daytime drunkenness, littering etc. The exception appears to be Merseyrail, which probably shows the success of their strict enforcement approach, though to be fair it was never *that* bad.

Of course probably the worst is the south London DOO services which wouldn't be far off being described as "crime-ridden", so every rule has an exception.

 

[al78]

Then you can experience the delights of road rage.

I've never experienced road rage myself. I have experienced plenty of thoughtless behaviour on trains and I suspect the latter is way more common than the former.

 

[AdamWW]

I've never experienced road rage myself. I have experienced plenty of thoughtless behaviour on trains and I suspect the latter is way more common than the former.

It was meant a bit tongue in cheek, though I think it's a serious point that sitting safely in your car doesn't actually mean that you don't have to interact with other people - just in a different (and potentially more dangerous) way.

 

[LowLevel]

I've never experienced road rage myself. I have experienced plenty of thoughtless behaviour on trains and I suspect the latter is way more common than the former.

Just the other month I had to intervene in a pair of arseholes trying to batter a motorcylist for daring to overtake them perfectly safely on a dual carriageway. They chased him up a residential street at 1500 when the school there was kicking out and the pavements were full of kids and boxed him in at a red light before getting out and dragging him off the bike.

Unfortunately for them he was pretty handy and promptly broke one of their noses with his gauntlets before I got out of my car with another big bloke doing the same and evened up the odds to break it up, when they sensed they'd lost the crowd they got back in their car and drove off but not before pushing the bike over.

If I was benevolent dictator for life I think I'd have just found them wanting and had them deleted because they were clearly defective and not good humans.

All this within 500 yards of a large police station *sigh*

 

[trainophile]

Absolute bliss. I’m in a 3/4 full southbound Avanti coach E and you could hear a pin drop! I don’t think I’ve ever had such a peaceful journey. No phones, no conversations.

There’s even a couple of small children playing quietly by themselves.

It’s quite uncanny.

 

[Aviator88]

Just the other month I had to intervene in a pair of arseholes trying to batter a motorcylist for daring to overtake them perfectly safely on a dual carriageway. They chased him up a residential street at 1500 when the school there was kicking out and the pavements were full of kids and boxed him in at a red light before getting out and dragging him off the bike.

Unfortunately for them he was pretty handy and promptly broke one of their noses with his gauntlets before I got out of my car with another big bloke doing the same and evened up the odds to break it up, when they sensed they'd lost the crowd they got back in their car and drove off but not before pushing the bike over.

If I was benevolent dictator for life I think I'd have just found them wanting and had them deleted because they were clearly defective and not good humans.

All this within 500 yards of a large police station *sigh*

I do question the logic of people who pick a fight with somebody in body armour!

 

[devon_belle]

Of course probably the worst is the south London DOO services which wouldn't be far off being described as "crime-ridden", so every rule has an exception.

I've experienced a mixed bag since I started travelling regularly by Southern from Victoria. Generally, serious ASB has been very rare (as rare as on-board staff!). Saturday night is the only time I've had problems, usually with excitable youths underage drinking (and spilling their wine over strangers next to them) and roadmen goading passengers for no particular reason.

The contrast with my prior commute by Picc line tube is stark, with regular journeys where I felt genuinely unsafe even in a train full of other passengers. A few texts to 61016 were fortunately dealt with promptly. I feel much safer on the District line, where at least I can escape the ASB by moving to another carriage. Big trains are far more civilised – just don't get me started on London buses. It was a culture shock having grown up in the Westcountry.

Much more significant in my South London experience are mild annoyances like people having phone calls too loud (in the morning peak, this is usually people in team meetings or conducting business with clients). Loud children were an issue in the Summer holiday, but since there is no quiet carriage I cannot complain. Smelly food is an issue in the evening, but who am I to prevent people from having dinner. If I am unlucky, I'll end up with a group of Surrey's 'posh chavs', who do their best to seem 'ard and emulate the Los Angeles lifestyle, albeit juxtaposing their adulation of grime culture with their rose gold iPhones and trust funds! Rah, this song is dutty. Where's my baccy?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting you say that about the Tube as I don't recall ever having felt unsafe on it. Perhaps it's different in the outer reaches I don't frequent.