Any news on the progress of Manchester - Chat Moss electrification ?

[John55]

I read elsewhere that mast bases are now appearing over Chat Moss. Can anyone confirm this ?

I made a return trip on the Chat Moss line from Liverpool to Manchester last Monday (09/04/12) and there were no mast bases to be seen. There is an area just west of Chat Moss where there are drain access points (manholes) which could be mistaken for mast foundations.

The installation of the masts and overhead wires even with the old equipment is relatively automated and quite quick. The upgraded Trent Valley line seemed to be wired quickly when the civils and track was complete. NR's CP4 update just published doesn't breakdown phase 1 (Castlefield Jcn - Lowton Jcn & N le W) but phase 2 (Bootle Branch Junction to Wigan & Earlestown) is due to start "main works" in November 2012. Main works is after the clearance works are complete.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed the deadline is Dec 2013 so with a target date of August/Sep for margin and training we are still over a year from completion.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Indeed the deadline is Dec 2013 so with a target date of August/Sep for margin and training we are still over a year from completion.

The other half into LLS is Dec 2014, after Huyton gets remodelled.

 

[Peter Gl]

Travelled from Patricroft to Liverpool this morning, noticed the footings in place for OLE between Astley SB and Parkside Junction. They weren't there last week.

Pete

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just as a matter of sheer interest, what is the current ground stability (for matters such as OHLE post bases) like on the route of the railway across Chat Moss as it is approaching 200 years since the rail line was originally driven across it. Could there be any underlying water-table problems envisaged...or have all matters such as this now diminished with the passing of time ?

 

[Pumbaa]

As a point, is the Olive Mount Chord and Canada Dock line being electrified as part of the Chat Moss scheme? Utterly wasted opportunity if not.

 

[John55]

Just as a matter of sheer interest, what is the current ground stability (for matters such as OHLE post bases) like on the route of the railway across Chat Moss as it is approaching 200 years since the rail line was originally driven across it. Could there be any underlying water-table problems envisaged...or have all matters such as this now diminished with the passing of time ?

Chat Moss is a 30 foot deep peat bog so it is pretty unstable. The problem being there is poor drainage (otherwise no peat) so when it rains and gets wet or the sun shines and it dries out the peat moves around. Any journey over the route shows the DMUs slowing down between Astley and Patricroft to 45 or 50 mph. Last year I was on a train which did not slow down as much as usual and the swaying around showed why there is a speed limit. Freight is limited to 20 mph I think. The only complete solution is to pile down to something solid as was done somewhere in eastern England a couple of years ago for a few hundred metre stretch. But 5 miles across Chat Moss would be enormously expensive as you are effectively building a 5 mile long viaduct.

I cannot find the reference but NR and Balfour Beatty (or whoever) have come up with a new design of overhead gantry which if I remember correctly has a solid connection under the track through the ballast or foundation material with the "goal posts" fitted above forming a box like structure. This means the support for the masts is the solid ballast and railway foundation not the peat underneath. The whole railway structure including gantries will then continue to "float" as it has done for 182 years.

As a point, is the Olive Mount Chord and Canada Dock line being electrified as part of the Chat Moss scheme? Utterly wasted opportunity if not.

At present none of the traffic from the Docks is capable of electric haulage without changing locos en route. So there doesn't seem much likelihood of anyone paying for the wires to go up. The intermodal trains from Widnes/Garston have the odd electric but most of that is diesel and I guess that is the only additional freight which might return to the Bootle Branch.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

At present none of the traffic from the Docks is capable of electric haulage without changing locos en route. So there doesn't seem much likelihood of anyone paying for the wires to go up. The intermodal trains from Widnes/Garston have the odd electric but most of that is diesel and I guess that is the only additional freight which might return to the Bootle Branch.

Haven't the DfT heard of future proofing?! Oh.... silly question... :roll:

 

[John55]

Haven't the DfT heard of future proofing?! Oh.... silly question... :roll:

The line is being future proofed as clearance for 9' 6" containers either has been or is about to be done despite no containers of any sort working down the line currently.

Electrification would add a lot of cost for no benefit at the moment. Come the day when steel from Sheffield, coal to Fiddlers Ferry/Ratcliffe/Rugeley and someone runs 10 intermodals a day to anywhere that can be worked electrically then it makes sense.

 

[Holly]

... At present none of the traffic from the {Liverpool} Docks is capable of electric haulage without changing locos en route. So there doesn't seem much likelihood of anyone paying for the wires to go up. ... .

Best case for electrification of Bootle Branch is the new Panamax container port under construction together with the fact that the line passes through dense nearby residential areas. Night time diesels (double headers?) hauling heavies up from the coast to Edge Lane could be a major imposition. The solutions being curfew or electrification.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Any journey over the route shows the DMUs slowing down between Astley and Patricroft to 45 or 50 mph. Last year I was on a train which did not slow down as much as usual and the swaying around showed why there is a speed limit. Freight is limited to 20 mph I think.

The speed limit is 60/40 for 3 miles from Astley box to a mile west of Patricroft (essentially at the M60 bridge), as opposed to 75 for the rest of the line.
I take the 40 to refer to 2-axle freight wagons but no doubt the experts will know. Certainly my 175s travel over it at 60, and very tedious it is.
The line speed is due to be upgraded to 90 on open sections of the route, but only 75 over Chat Moss itself.
Although the 60/40 speed limit seems permanent I think it has applied only since the 70s after some track damage.
The line had got into a very poor state until recently.

The M62 passing nearby doesn't seem to need any special treatment, and the landscape is a lot drier than it used to be.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With this particular line and all its known speed restriction and infrastructural problems. was the reason for choosing this route over Chat Moss for the proposed new electric unit Scotland services from Manchester, rather than the Bolton route, a decision based upon the hope that Chat Moss will hopefully become more stable over the years to come...or is there a far more convoluted reason involved ?

 

[John55]

Best case for electrification of Bootle Branch is the new Panamax container port under construction together with the fact that the line passes through dense nearby residential areas. Night time diesels (double headers?) hauling heavies up from the coast to Edge Lane could be a major imposition. The solutions being curfew or electrification.

The new development at Seaforth is the construction of 2 river berths for post Panamax container ships i.e. much bigger. The Gladstone Lock has allowed Panamax vessels into the docks system since the 1920s.

As 23 x 100 tonne wagon coal trains leave the docks single headed by class 60s or 70s I don't think double heading of the much lighter intermodal trains is likely.

Given how quiet modern locos and loaded trains are I doubt if night operation is that big a deal these days. (Of course I don't live near a railway line so I might change my mind if I did!).

However containers are currently trucked to Garston & Widnes for onward rail journeys and I don't know if it is likely the traffic will ever revert to rail haulage from the port.

 

[Nym]

- Shortest possible route to the WCML North.
- Lays the foundation for electrification to Liverpool.
- Allows access to WCML South, diversions in years to come are likely with HS2 works.
- Origonally not going to call at Wigan, therefore via Bolton or Eccles is irrelivant.

Either way, I think the chat moss was the logical first step, with the others added later, all I'd like to see in addition to all this is the addition of Lostock to Wallgate via Hindley, allowing more services to change to EMU operation.

Then until the lines to Southport and/or Kirby are on the cards, or re-signalling of the Atherton route is to take place, one should hang fire on this side of Manchester and look for some other simple infill schemes, like TPE North, SE Manchester Suburban (Lines to New Mills and Chinley), Windermere (1tph, but very low cost), Valley Lines, Southern Infill, etc for Suburban stock and the Midland Mainline for Mainline stock.

 

[John55]

With this particular line and all its known speed restriction and infrastructural problems. was the reason for choosing this route over Chat Moss for the proposed new electric unit Scotland services from Manchester, rather than the Bolton route, a decision based upon the hope that Chat Moss will hopefully become more stable over the years to come...or is there a far more convoluted reason involved ?

The line from Salford Crescent to Euxton Junction via Bolton is not a particularly fast route and has many stations both between Salford and Bolton and between Bolton and Preston, including the 2 new ones at Horwich Parkway and Buckshaw Parkway. This route therefore has a mix of fast and slow trains, which limit the capacity of the route and the ability to run fast.

The route from Ordsall Lane Junction to Euxton Junction via Wigan NW has only 3 stations including Wigan NW and is a fast route (even with a 75mph limit over Chat Moss) with the exception of the Parkside Junction to Golbourne Junction section. This should allow fast trains to be run from Manchester to Preston and release capacity on the route through Bolton. As an example in the draft timetable TPE published for May 2014 the current 17:15 from Manchester Piccadilly to Scotland & Barrow is split into 2 trains with the Barrow train departing at 17:11 via Bolton and the “new” 17:15 to Glasgow via Chat Moss and Wigan. Despite the extra 6 miles of the Chat Moss route they will take the same time to Preston.

One big change for the Chat Moss section is that for many years the route only had 2 trains per hour for almost all the day, 1 all stations Liverpool to Manchester and the 1 semi fast Chester to Manchester. This has gone up to 3 per hour since the Liverpool to Manchester Airport semi-fast was introduced. In a few years there will be 4 trains/hour Liverpool – Manchester, 1 Manchester – Scotland, 1 Manchester – Chester and quite probably some others. There will therefore be a significant change to the maintenance regime on the Chat Moss section as the number of trains and their speed increases. As with any unstable area the more often maintenance is done the easier it is to maintain the standard of the track.

 

[snail]

Historically, haven't height restrictions through the Farnworth tunnels and Chorley arches been mooted as obstacles to this route? Having said that, there wasn't that much time between announcing Chat Moss electrification and announcing that these problems had been resolved.

Also, as for the peat moss stability issues wasn't there a similar type of problem with salt around Sandbach?

 

[swt_passenger]

Historically, haven't height restrictions through the Farnworth tunnels and Chorley arches been mooted as obstacles to this route?

The Chorley arches are sitting in a shed somewhere last I heard, weren't they going to be stored and then reinstated in a different higher position?

 

[John55]

Historically, haven't height restrictions through the Farnworth tunnels and Chorley arches been mooted as obstacles to this route? Having said that, there wasn't that much time between announcing Chat Moss electrification and announcing that these problems had been resolved.

Also, as for the peat moss stability issues wasn't there a similar type of problem with salt around Sandbach?

Salt extraction is more like coal mining where the ground sinks but eventually stops. Hence the adjustable OHLE masts that can be raised when more ballast is dumped to maintain the relative level. Peat can go up and down as it shrinks and expands with the rainfall and often quickly.

Does raise an interesting thought. Would it have been possible to electrify using overhead collection in South Wales, Yorkshire or Nottinghamshire before the 1970s due to the enormous colliery subsidence which used to bedevill the coal mining areas such as these?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I won't quote you all as I'd be here all day ...

The Chat Moss has (been) dried out over the years and the last consultantto report recommended 75 as a maximum speed, 60 for class 6 (freight), but they didn't do much testing to back this up.

The new OLE structures are just installed a bit deeper, as they were at Hest Bank on the WCML.

Crescent - Bolton - Euxton is one of the routes identified for journey time improvements under the Northern Hub, and the electrification scheme is targetting W10 gauge (which will involve slab track through one of the bores at Farnworth, lowering through the other and lowerings (again) through the not-so-flying arches and the tunnel at Chorley. The possible re-instatement of platform 5 at Bolton may also ease the Fast / Slow mix problem.

Sandbach was due long-standing pumped brine extraction causing caverns to form under the railway, with consequent sudden changes in long section in front of trains: the speed was to reduce the incidence of these excursions (caused by vibration) and to reduce the damage caused by the ensuing derailments.

OLE is remarkably tolerant of this, because the track and OLE sink together (pretty much). It's only really a problem when Pway come and lift the dip out of the track and OLE run out of steel (hence the vast piecemeal columns south Sandbach.

 

[Nym]

Platform 5 would be nice at Bolton if they also took the time to extend the overbridge and put in a new multi storey car park on Bradshawgate.

IE: At the East End extend the overbridge into a new satellite ticket office on a floor of the car park with pedestrian access via lift and escalators from Bradshawgate, and install an additional lift to the 'service yard' ex. car park to retain access for bin wagons and rail maintenance vehicles etc, possibly also Staff Parking. This would mean buying up and paving over World of Fassion (former) and the site is currently free and quite available for purchase, a token £1 or £2/day for season ticket holders and standard parking charges for non ticket holders would see it fine on the money front, and further expansion can be done on the other side of the bridge.

Platform wise, Pt.1 would need northbound access and turnout speed improvments in combination to allow overtaking services at Bolton, and Pt.4 plugging into the Clitheroe line, possibly by splitting 4 into 4a and 4b to move the turnout further back to the Manchester end of 4.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I did a trip over the Chat Moss line today, and the OHLE work is making good progress eastwards.
Mast bases are installed for about 3.5 miles on both lines from Parkside to just short of Glazebury, with masts now erected on the Up (eastbound) line over the same stretch.
There was a Balfour Beatty engineering train parked up at Edge Hill, which I imagine is the one doing the construction work.
A couple of pictures attached (from the train, sorry about the quality).

If NR and BB can manage to do the OHL work overnight without significant disruption I guess we will all be pleased.

 

[John55]

I did a trip over the Chat Moss line today, and the OHLE work is making good progress eastwards.
Mast bases are installed for about 3.5 miles on both lines from Parkside to just short of Glazebury, with masts now erected on the Up (eastbound) line over the same stretch.
There was a Balfour Beatty engineering train parked up at Edge Hill, which I imagine is the one doing the construction work.
A couple of pictures attached (from the train, sorry about the quality).

If NR and BB can manage to do the OHL work overnight without significant disruption I guess we will all be pleased.

The foundations on Monday stretched from Parkside East to milepost 21 1/2 and I counted 23 masts standing. As you say the eastbound side is in advance of the westbound line with more foundations and all the masts on the eastbound side. I did notice some holes for foundations just west of Patricroft as well.

The electrification DMU seems to be loaded with 4 masts at a time. I assume there must be some other plant elsewhere which I have not seen as the DMU seems to have hoppers for cement/aggregate but no crane or method of mixing the concrete.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The foundations on Monday stretched from Parkside East to milepost 21 1/2 and I counted 23 masts standing. As you say the eastbound side is in advance of the westbound line with more foundations and all the masts on the eastbound side. I did notice some holes for foundations just west of Patricroft as well.

The electrification DMU seems to be loaded with 4 masts at a time. I assume there must be some other plant elsewhere which I have not seen as the DMU seems to have hoppers for cement/aggregate but no crane or method of mixing the concrete.

Good to know there's more than me counting the rivets!
About 60 mast bases I reckoned on the westbound line.
I couldn't count and take photos at the same time on the eastbound, but overall about the same number.
Nothing visible at Parkside itself or the Golborne banch.
There was a large collection of kit at the former Kenyon Jn, but not sure what it is.
You would probably get a good view of the installation work from Culcheth Golf Course!

There are gaps. I guess these are for the larger OHL structures needed every so often along the route.
I also noticed the big holes either side of Patricroft, and a collection of yellow kit on the Chat Moss stretch, but difficult to ascribe to OHLE work.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

IE: At the East End extend the overbridge into a new satellite ticket office on a floor of the car park with pedestrian access via lift and escalators from Bradshawgate, and install an additional lift to the 'service yard' ex. car park to retain access for bin wagons and rail maintenance vehicles etc, possibly also Staff Parking. This would mean buying up and paving over World of Fashion (former) and the site is currently free.

I feel that you will find that Bolton's share of the available finance for infrastructural works has already been well and truly spent with the improvement works that have been effected at this station in recent times.

 

[Smoggy]

.
There was a Balfour Beatty engineering train parked up at Edge Hill, which I imagine is the one doing the construction work.
A couple of pictures attached (from the train, sorry about the quality).

If NR and BB can manage to do the OHL work overnight without significant disruption I guess we will all be pleased.

The train pictured is the 'new' concrete train which is a modified TRAMM. Can batch 16m3 of concrete per shift. Currently still in testing stage so not been used yet.