Any plans for a 465 refurbishment?

[Luke456001]

Are there any plans to refurbish the 465 fleet on Southeastern?

 

[387star]

They have spent four years working on these units but I agree you would barely know

 

[hassaanhc]

Are there any plans to refurbish the 465 fleet on Southeastern?

I'm not surprised about this question. All except 465901-934 are still in more or less original interior condition, minus the seat covering and interior door buttons, and look incredibly tired (901-934 were originally 201-234 are the exceptions, and only got refurbished as they moved from London area local services to outer-suburban longer distance services and First Class was fitted at both ends of the unit).
Most of them are also lacking even basic RVAR 2010 and PRM TSI compliant accessibility features, such as wheelchair space, contrasting flooring in doorways, and contrasting handrails. Therefore a refresh/refurb program will be necessary to at least ensure they gain the accessibility features to remain compliant beyond the 2019/2020 deadline.

EDIT: I was not aware there was one already in progress
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I suppose one could replace the seat coverings and it would be considered a "refresh"

Hardly anything different from new on most:

465173_TSO_Interior by peter_skuce, on Flickr

Whereas the 465/9 are much better and were refurbished extensively in 2005 due to moving to outer-suburban services:
465923_Standard_Class_Interior by peter_skuce, on Flickr

 

[21C101]

I'm not surprised about this question. All except 465901-934 are still in more or less original interior condition, minus the seat covering and interior door buttons, and look incredibly tired (901-934 were originally 201-234 are the exceptions, and only got refurbished as they moved from London area local services to outer-suburban longer distance services and First Class was fitted at both ends of the unit).
Most of them are also lacking even basic RVAR 2010 and PRM TSI compliant accessibility features, such as wheelchair space, contrasting flooring in doorways, and contrasting handrails. Therefore a refresh/refurb program will be necessary to at least ensure they gain the accessibility features to remain compliant beyond the 2019/2020 deadline.

EDIT: I was not aware there was one already in progress
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I suppose one could replace the seat coverings and it would be considered a "refresh"

Hardly anything different from new on most:

465173_TSO_Interior by peter_skuce, on Flickr

Whereas the 465/9 are much better and were refurbished extensively in 2005 due to moving to outer-suburban services:
465923_Standard_Class_Interior by peter_skuce, on Flickr

Maybe because they were so well designed in the first place. A lot of effort went into the Networker design after all the criticism of the Class 455 "Pox-Boxes"

 

[hassaanhc]

Maybe because they were so well designed in the first place. A lot of effort went into the Networker design after all the criticism of the Class 455 "Pox-Boxes"

I wonder how the similar-aged 319/320/321/322/456 "Dusties" [* :P] were received at the time. On those I find the interior on the dark and cramped side, whereas the 455s I think are pretty open and bright

* Ok I know only LM 321s were given that nickname but still

I much prefer the original 455 interior

Interior of Class 455 unit 5837 by J&LittleHouse, on Flickr
to the really low seats and dim light diffusers on 319s

IMGP2466 by mattbuck4950, on Flickr

Back, to the Networker, I seem to like the FGW refurb for some reason

First Great Western 165106 on the 1218 Reading - Paddington: Interior by hassaanhc, on Flickr
compared to the old, but I feel that isn't really logical :?

465173_DMSO_Interior by peter_skuce, on Flickr

 

[Luke456001]

These are one of my favourite units, however they are in a desperate need of a refurbishment. Instead of wasting time giving them new liveries they need to invest inside them.

 

[21C101]

I wonder how the similar-aged 319/320/321/322/456 "Dusties" [* :P] were received at the time. On those I find the interior on the dark and cramped side, whereas the 455s I think are pretty open and bright

Bearing in mind that thre 455s replaced the 4-Subs which had comfortable full height seats and nine a side slam doors, they were not well received when people discovered that they had bus seats and had to queue to get out of the two doors in each carriage. The front end design was also hideous and didn't have headcodes, just the destination, which when there are about five different routes to Epsom Downs from Victoria wasn't seen as very helpful. (no PIDs or automatic PA in those days, just fingerboards and electromechanical flaps if you were lucky). They also didn't have lavatories which 4-SUBs and 4-EPBs didn't but things like 2-HALs which they replaced on services to Effingham Junction (this is significant) among other places did.

The change from 4-SUBs and 4-EPBs also brought in a permanent slowing down of the service due to the extended dwell times that having only two doors instead of nine had. There were also complaints about the brakes. This was because they were disc brakes not clasp brakes. Clasp brakes burnt off leaf residue whereas clever new disc brakes did not. As a result there were some infamous train ski-ing incidents and sanders had to be re invented.

Hence they were known locally as Pox-Boxes.

and I recall a well known pundit who has since gone to Yorkshire describing them as looking like they were designed by a committee with a grudge.

The later ones were revised 319/320/321/322/456 as a result of this criticism and had decent seats and better front ends with headcodes (as well as lavatories) followed by Chris Green grabbing the bull by the horns and doing the design properly, with said pundit on the design committee I think. The later 455s also had slightly improved front ends.

Unfortunately that lesson, with regards to the seats, seems to have been forgotten with the Class 700s that will replace the 319s and may have to be painfully relearned.

 

[387star]

Southern electric group follow the history of the livery adorning the 465s very well

The equipment covers were upon initial unveiling white whilst there was no stripe... The covers were painted gradually at a later date whilst the stripe was also incorporated...

Not quite sure why there was so much indecision but there you go

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could the networkers eventually get new cabs and front end assemblies with corridor connections (current regs compliant) to make them compatible with electrostars in service?

Could they be retrofitted eventually with pans and any other equipment and wiring necessary for dual voltage?

 

[Mikey C]

Could the networkers eventually get new cabs and front end assemblies with corridor connections (current regs compliant) to make them compatible with electrostars in service?

Could they be retrofitted eventually with pans and any other equipment and wiring necessary for dual voltage?

The 465s will happily live out their days on the 3rd rail Southeastern routes, they're over 20 years old already so will do out be replaced well before the whole of SE England is converted to OHLE!

The networkers were a pretty decent design and have aged very well

 

[DJL]

The 465s will happily live out their days on the 3rd rail Southeastern routes, they're over 20 years old already so will do out be replaced well before the whole of SE England is converted to OHLE!

The networkers were a pretty decent design and have aged very well

They feel much younger than 319s which are, I believe only a few years older

 

[SGS]

I'm not surprised about this question. All except 465901-934 are still in more or less original interior condition, minus the seat covering and interior door buttons, and look incredibly tired

I wonder if, of all the suburban units of the UK, the 465s serve the areas with the most, how shall I put this, challenging clientele? Certainly before the seat re-cover and general repaint work they've had over the last few years, they were very grubby and unpleasant indeed.

 

[hassaanhc]

Bearing in mind that thre 455s replaced the 4-Subs which had comfortable full height seats and nine a side slam doors, they were not well received when people discovered that they had bus seats and had to queue to get out of the two doors in each carriage. The front end design was also hideous and didn't have headcodes, just the destination, which when there are about five different routes to Epsom Downs from Victoria wasn't seen as very helpful. (no PIDs or automatic PA in those days, just fingerboards and electromechanical flaps if you were lucky). They also didn't have lavatories which 4-SUBs and 4-EPBs didn't but things like 2-HALs which they replaced on services to Effingham Junction (this is significant) among other places did.

The change from 4-SUBs and 4-EPBs also brought in a permanent slowing down of the service due to the extended dwell times that having only two doors instead of nine had. There were also complaints about the brakes. This was because they were disc brakes not clasp brakes. Clasp brakes burnt off leaf residue whereas clever new disc brakes did not. As a result there were some infamous train ski-ing incidents and sanders had to be re invented.

Hence they were known locally as Pox-Boxes.

and I recall a well known pundit who has since gone to Yorkshire describing them as looking like they were designed by a committee with a grudge.

The later ones were revised 319/320/321/322/456 as a result of this criticism and had decent seats and better front ends with headcodes (as well as lavatories) followed by Chris Green grabbing the bull by the horns and doing the design properly, with said pundit on the design committee I think. The later 455s also had slightly improved front ends.

Unfortunately that lesson, with regards to the seats, seems to have been forgotten with the Class 700s that will replace the 319s and may have to be painfully relearned.

Thanks for that detailed reply. I can see why people weren't happy about them compared to their predecessors. Even the 456s for local services had a toilet when new, which was removed after a few years! The Networker family have toilets too, even in the 2-car 165 & 466 versions. Even today the 455s are disliked for the lack of toilets, and also for being very hot and stuffy inside (the latter probably due to the window openings being reduced, as only the SWT ones have that problem).

 

[ScotGG]

The 465 is are very good train, and in many ways you'd not know some are 23 years old. However the op is correct that they are now very tied inside. It is curious as to why it has taken 4 years to refresh the fleet (mainly traction motors wasn't it?) but do almost nothing inside, thus they are not compatible with disability regs and will need major work to sort this. There's no disabled toilet or wheelchair space.

Aircon is also needed, and the 365s have it. Another thing that should have been done was turn some banks of 3 seats into 2 to create more standing space. The middle seat is not really usable, and London Bridge rebuilding will greatly increase the levels of crowding in coming years. This should all have been sorted the past 4 years whilst refurbishment was going on.

The 465/9s are far nicer inside after their 2005 refurb. Much brighter and more pleasant. The other 465s are drab inside colour wise.

 

[ac6000cw]

Aircon is also needed, and the 365s have it.

No they don't....only the cabs have been retro-fitted with it (or air cooling - there seems to be some debate about it).

 

[user15681]

I wonder if, of all the suburban units of the UK, the 465s serve the areas with the most, how shall I put this, challenging clientele? Certainly before the seat re-cover and general repaint work they've had over the last few years, they were very grubby and unpleasant indeed.

You could say that about the clientele!

I've posted it before I think, but this picture gets me every time. It would be amusing if the amount of vandalism wasn't so big.

Not long ago there was an entire 465 seat (back and bottom) in the cess around Bickley. How it got there still puzzles me. I'm sure there was no way that thing would fit out the window, so unless someone possessed magical powers, must have egressed a door and thrown it out or taken it off with them at a station and thrown it over the fence. The struggle against vandalism on the is huge.

 

[SF-02]

No they don't....only the cabs have been retro-fitted with it (or air cooling - there seems to be some debate about it).

Does the 165? I thought one member of the networker family had it?

 

[FOH]

Does the 165? I thought one member of the networker family had it?

The Chiltern Turbos have air cooling and closed windows, the Thames Express 166s have air con

 

[SF-02]

You could say that about the clientele!

I've posted it before I think, but this picture gets me every time. It would be amusing if the amount of vandalism wasn't so big.

Not long ago there was an entire 465 seat (back and bottom) in the cess around Bickley. How it got there still puzzles me. I'm sure there was no way that thing would fit out the window, so unless someone possessed magical powers, must have egressed a door and thrown it out or taken it off with them at a station and thrown it over the fence. The struggle against vandalism on the is huge.

That's much more likely to happen with no on-board staff, no barriers at many stations (or open all the time) nor any other form of rail staff to prevent such things. Southeastern is like the old silverlink in that regard - very few staff even on very high frequency routes. Not wise even in 'leafy' areas but very silly in places with lots of social problems which many southeastern routes pass through.

 

[hassaanhc]

The Chiltern Turbos have air cooling and closed windows, the Thames Express 166s have air con

Chiltern actually fitted air conditioning to theirs, hence the removal of the opening windows and different vents to the 166/365. The 365 have opening windows throughout so it is kinda obvious they don't have air conditioning, and the windows aren't marked with notices about that unlike the 166s.

 

[Mikey C]

Chiltern actually fitted air conditioning to theirs, hence the removal of the opening windows and different vents to the 166/365. The 365 have opening windows throughout so it is kinda obvious they don't have air conditioning, and the windows aren't marked with notices about that unlike the 166s.

The 365s are dreadfully noisy at speed because of their open windows, it really stands out on what are otherwise nice trains

 

[SF-02]

So if Chiltern's 166 have them presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to do when the 465/466 get their needed refurbishment?

I think I read on here once that Chiltern asked how much it would be to install air con and was given a ludicrous figure. instead of giving up they seeked out cheaper alternatives and found a way to do it much more cheaply. If so, whenever the 465 refurb comes around I hope those in charge talk to chiltern and learn from it.

 

[hassaanhc]

So if Chiltern's 166 have them presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to do when the 465/466 get their needed refurbishment?

I think I read on here once that Chiltern asked how much it would be to install air con and was given a ludicrous figure. instead of giving up they seeked out cheaper alternatives and found a way to do it much more cheaply. If so, whenever the 465 refurb comes around I hope those in charge talk to chiltern and learn from it.

I'd hope they fit air conditioning to the 376 too in that case. The 376 were the first stock for years to not have it, and probably the last too. What on earth happened there?! It would not be good if the 465/466 got it but the much newer 376 didn't

I don't know what Chiltern did to their 165s (they don't have 166), however the vents are the same as those used on the 168/170/171/172 family of stock.

165030_MSO_Interior by peter_skuce, on Flickr

Chiltern Class 172 101 Interior by XCountry Photographer, on Flickr

 

[SF-02]

It would be good if the 376's got air con but I don't think they'll be needing refurbishment for a while yet unlike the 465/466. There's no toilets of course so no disability rules to worry about. 465/466 will need bigger work done before 2020 so air con could be added at the time.

As for why 376's don't have air con - probably because ordered by connex and the southeastern area has been lumbered with rubbish operators since privatisation with the exception of the state owned running of 2003-2006.

 

[fgwrich]

I'd hope they fit air conditioning to the 376 too in that case. The 376 were the first stock for years to not have it, and probably the last too. What on earth happened there?! It would not be good if the 465/466 got it but the much newer 376 didn't

I don't know what Chiltern did to their 165s (they don't have 166), however the vents are the same as those used on the 168/170/171/172 family of stock.

165030_MSO_Interior by peter_skuce, on Flickr

Chiltern Class 172 101 Interior by XCountry Photographer, on Flickr

I don't think those are actually vents though, more a stylised hinge to the ceiling panels, which Bombardier being the follow on from ABB/Adtranz just reused.

One of the problems that Chiltern faced when installing their Air Conditioning during the refurbishment was that, as with Bombardier Stock built onwards out of extruded aluminium, the ceilings were effectively fitted upside down and welded into place - therefore what may seem simple to fit to the ceiling panels when the roof is laid flat on jigs, is then upside down when the roof is put onto the rest of the train - As this was the standard construction method for all the Networkers, I can imagine any attempt to do the same to the SE Networks will have the same issue. Adtranz/Bombardier I think have got around this issue by installing the air conditioning in modules in cut outs on the roof - and installed before the roof panel is welded to the rest of the trains bodysides.

 

[TheJRB]

Interesting comments here. It must only be me who prefers the blue and grey mix on the /0s, /1s and /2s to the "primary school" style yellow scheme on the /9s. I've also found that the BREL batch have a better ride quality at high speed than the Metro-Cammell batch (although the BREL units are definitely louder at speed), not that that relates to the interior of course.

Every time I travel on a 465/9 there seems to be something wrong with the unit, be it the toilet (or both toilets) out of use, a wheel flat or broken heating in the winter. One particular occasion I recall last winter wasn't pleasant with the heating broken on a cold January evening. Needless to say, changing on to a 375 at Tonbridge made me appreciate the Electrostars that little bit more. Then on the hottest day of last year, I ended up on the 16:57 Charing Cross-Ashford, the only Networker of the day on that line and it was like a furnace! I overheard the driver that was leaving the train at Sevenoaks comment "they don't care if we get cooked alive!".

As for the 2+3 arrangement, I do agree that the third seat is often not used. That said I have insisted in taking the third seat at times rather than standing, even if there isn't much room to breathe without knocking the person next to you!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I don't think those are actually vents though, more a stylised hinge to the ceiling panels, which Bombardier being the follow on from ABB/Adtranz just reused.

They are indeed hinges.

 

[Electrostar]

Certainly the interiors suffer from poor care and attention by Southeastern. The units are often dirty, the new seat coverings are loose and it's quite usual to find cushions missing. Sure much of this is down to passenger behaviour but I get the impression that Southeastern doesn't much care for its fleet.

465/9s are now regularly in service on metro routes especially Victoria-Orpington. The 2+2 first class seating affords more standing on an overcrowded line where cancellations and short-formed trains are usual. However as Southeastern drivers, station PAs and the Twitter feed never bother to announce that first class is declassified when a 465/9 is used on a metro route many passengers refuse to stand or sit in first class. This causes even more overcrowding in the vestibule and standard class aisle.

The livery situation is ridiculous. I remember reading an interview with the GoVia boss who said Southeastern were compelled by the DFT to continue the later style of Connex white and grey branding albeit being allowed to change the old grey stripe to blue.

The Railway Centre website has an artists impression of the 465 looking more like its 165/166 cousins with streamlined skirt instead of chunky buffers (which a few years after entering service had to be fitted with a curved beam to stop train surfing and added to the visual difference between the two manufacturers.)

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Recognition Pictures Loco/Artists_emu.html

 

[jnjkerbin]

There is absolutely no point in fitting air con to suburban units like the 376 or 465. The trains stop far to frequently for it to be effective.

 

[Mikey C]

There is absolutely no point in fitting air con to suburban units like the 376 or 465. The trains stop far to frequently for it to be effective.

I think the Overground 378s and Underground S stock have shown how air conditioning is becoming standard on all stock. Indeed the 376s will probably the last mainline stock built without aircon?