Anyone have a list of the Finnish Railways cutbacks effective March 2016?

[Shinkansenfan]

Does anyone have a list of which Finnish railway lines that are to be axed effective March 2016?

Also, does VR (Finnish Railways) publish a PDF of their timetables--either all lines or by branch line? I couldn't find any on the VR website other than individual timetables from each station--but nothing showing branch lines.

Thanks in advance.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Does anyone have a list of which Finnish railway lines that are to be axed effective March 2016?

Also, does VR (Finnish Railways) publish a PDF of their timetables--either all lines or by branch line? I couldn't find any on the VR website other than individual timetables from each station--but nothing showing branch lines.

Thanks in advance.

Of course... I have it somewhere

 

[oldman]

The Swedish-language version of the VR website has timetable pdfs here.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Official announcement from VR:

http://www.vrgroup.fi/fi/vrgroup/uu...nteeseen-muutoksia-maaliskuussa-150920151350/

http://www.vrgroup.fi/fi/vrgroup/uu...nteeseen-muutoksia-maaliskuussa-150920151350/

From Helsingin Sanomat (main newspaper):

http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/a1442283587894

"Koko maasta lakkaa yhteensä 28 pientä asemaa ja lukuisia reittejä. Ministeriö ei enää osta junaliikennettä reiteiltä Joensuu–Nurmes, Tampere–Keuruu ja Jyväskylä–Haapamäki-Seinäjoki. Pieksämäki–Joensuu-reitti lyhennetään reitiksi Pieksämäki–Varkaus. Junavuorot vähenevät reiteillä Riihimäki–Lahti, Hanko–Karjaa, Kouvola–Kotkan satama ja Kajaani–Oulu."

Trains will be cut from:

Joensuu-Nurmes
Tampere-Keuruu (including the newly built station at Orivesi Keskusta)
Jyväskylä-Seinajoki
Trains between Varkaus and Joensuu will be cut

Trains on the lines Riihimaki-Lahti, Hanko-Karjaa, Kouvola-Kotkan Satama and Karjaani-Oulu

So basically only the mainlines will be left with the 'commuter' services between Seinajoki-Vaasa and Tampere-Pori to remain. I understand from some sources that a number of intercity routes will also be reduced and it is also possible that the highly popular night/car trains to Kolari in Lapland will also be cut.

Some commuter services around the Helsinki area will also be reduced, including the very contentious closing of Suintio station and the removal of the H-services between Helsinki and Riihimaki with the closure of 2 minor commuter stations (Nuppulinna).

Suintio Commune (UK equiv: County) have been investing heavily in building houses around Suintio station.

In the statement from VR:

"Lakkautettavilla vuoroilla tehdään yhteensä 550 000 matkaa vuodessa"

550,000 journeys are made from the stations to be closed in a year.

Here are the passenger numbers from the complete list of stations to be closed. Please be aware of all the usual caveats about calculating passenger numbers and bear in mind a lot of the stations are very remote, no other public transport exists and in many cases only 2 or 3 trains a day call at these stations:

http://www.vrgroup.fi/fi/vrgroup/uu...et/asemat--joilla-matkustajaliikenne-paattyy/

Regarding the trains on the Pieksamaäki-Varkaus-Joensuu line, there are *rumours* that a "very rare" 'all lines/all trains' ticket is held by someone on this route (politician, VR board member?) hence the fact that only part of the line will be cut.

If you can bear Google Translate then www.vaunut.org (Keskustelu) has discussion on this.

t.

Ian
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Swedish-language version of the VR website has timetable pdfs here.

English might be easier for this forum: https://www.vr.fi/cs/vr/en/frontpage

t.

Ian

 

[oldman]

English might be easier for this forum: https://www.vr.fi/cs/vr/en/frontpage

Indeed it might be if the English version had links to route timetables rather than just station departure lists. Unless I am missing something.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Indeed it might be if the English version had links to route timetables rather than just station departure lists. Unless I am missing something.

Interesting...haven't used the English version ever; but after November only the Helsinki-Oulu-Kolari/Rovaniemi timetables appear to be available

t.

Ian

 

[Shinkansenfan]

The Swedish-language version of the VR website has timetable pdfs here.

Thanks, oldman. Very useful and just what I'm looking for. Makes trip planning easier!

Official announcement from VR:

http://www.vrgroup.fi/fi/vrgroup/uu...nteeseen-muutoksia-maaliskuussa-150920151350/

http://www.vrgroup.fi/fi/vrgroup/uu...nteeseen-muutoksia-maaliskuussa-150920151350/

From Helsingin Sanomat (main newspaper):

http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/a1442283587894

"Koko maasta lakkaa yhteensä 28 pientä asemaa ja lukuisia reittejä. Ministeriö ei enää osta junaliikennettä reiteiltä Joensuu–Nurmes, Tampere–Keuruu ja Jyväskylä–Haapamäki-Seinäjoki. Pieksämäki–Joensuu-reitti lyhennetään reitiksi Pieksämäki–Varkaus. Junavuorot vähenevät reiteillä Riihimäki–Lahti, Hanko–Karjaa, Kouvola–Kotkan satama ja Kajaani–Oulu."

Trains will be cut from:

Joensuu-Nurmes
Tampere-Keuruu (including the newly built station at Orivesi Keskusta)
Jyväskylä-Seinajoki
Trains between Varkaus and Joensuu will be cut

Trains on the lines Riihimaki-Lahti, Hanko-Karjaa, Kouvola-Kotkan Satama and Karjaani-Oulu

So basically only the mainlines will be left with the 'commuter' services between Seinajoki-Vaasa and Tampere-Pori to remain. I understand from some sources that a number of intercity routes will also be reduced and it is also possible that the highly popular night/car trains to Kolari in Lapland will also be cut.

Some commuter services around the Helsinki area will also be reduced, including the very contentious closing of Suintio station and the removal of the H-services between Helsinki and Riihimaki with the closure of 2 minor commuter stations (Nuppulinna).

Thanks, Ian. Depressing the extent of cutbacks. I'm in need of several lines. I'd better get planning. Too much to hope for a reprieve/reversal?

 

[judethegreat]

Why is this happening?
Also, are Finnish railways state owned, private or what exactly?
Cheers

 

[Shinkansenfan]

Official announcement from VR:

Trains will be cut from:

<snip>

Tampere-Keuruu (including the newly built station at Orivesi Keskusta)

<snip>

Ian

I'm trying to figure out which route will be cut:

1. Tampere to Keuruu via Orivesi and Haapamaki (Keuruu seems to be only a few Km east of Haapamaki)

or

2. Tampere to Keuruu via Orivesi and Jyvaskyla?

Or both routes?

VR's live train map shows trains using both routes.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is this happening?
Also, are Finnish railways state owned, private or what exactly?
Cheers

Finland, similar to Greece has experienced a tough economic downturn. So these appear to be a reaction to reduce costs by shrinking the network to focus on more trafficked passenger lines. They are also eliminating ticket agent staff at several stations.

The current issue of International Railway Journal has a pretty good article on VR, except they do not list the lines slated for closure. Hence, my original request after an Internet search yielded no information.

 

[rf_ioliver]

1. Tampere to Keuruu via Orivesi and Haapamaki (Keuruu seems to be only a few Km east of Haapamaki)

Haapamaki is the junction of the Haapamaki-Tampere (via Orivesi) and the Seinajoki-Jyväskylä lines. As far as I understand it at the moment, both lines will lose passenger service.

VR's live train map shows trains using both routes.

Yes, it will. The services are running at the moment.

Finland, similar to Greece has experienced a tough economic downturn. So these appear to be a reaction to reduce costs by shrinking the network to focus on more trafficked passenger lines. They are also eliminating ticket agent staff at several stations.

Kind of...yes the traditional economy hasn't been good (forest, heavy manufacturing) and the government has been too slow (and IMHO incompetent) with economic decisions; which currently seem to favour making things more difficult than actually supporting research, education, technological industries (Finland has a huge amount of tech start-ups - mainly from ex-Nokia and related engineers), but getting support is extremely difficult.

VR is a state owned monopoly which runs as a kind of independent entity. Finland has special permission to not outsource its passenger rail network and VR has no intensive to re-open routes (eg Turku-Uusikaupunki, Kerava-Nikkilä etc) and plans for commuter rail networks around Turku and Tampere have been continually stalled. I am afraid that VR is much more of a poltical organization with running a rail network considered to be an inconvenience to its main business.

While much of this is done in the name of cost savings, VR has admitted it has been very slow in reacting to low cost busses (OnniBus), changing market etc. VR prices are extremely high in many cases and service more akin to a low cost airline: demand based pricing has been a particular complaint. Similarly VR's business class offerings are little more than standard class which means they get relatively little money from their 'premium' product.

Then there's the case of the commuter rail stations in the Helsinki area, particularly Suintio where the local commune has invested heavily in housing around the station only to find that VR is now closing the station. The minister of transport seems to be unable to do anything about this.

Finally, VR's news announcement from February 2015 puts more light on their financial situation:

"Strong earnings for VR Group - EUR 100 million dividend to state"

http://www.vrgroup.fi/en/vrgroup/ne...r-100-million-dividend-to-state-260220151614/

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds very much like the Beeching era. Interesting to mention "permission not to outsource" as I don't believe that is needed - EU law simply requires separation of accounting for infrastructure and operations in order to facilitate open access.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Sounds very much like the Beeching era. Interesting to mention "permission not to outsource" as I don't believe that is needed - EU law simply requires separation of accounting for infrastructure and operations in order to facilitate open access.

It refers to Finland being allowed to keep its passenger rail monopoly. However it seems that some are now calling for the removal of these rights so lines could be handed over to private operators.

There is some discussion over which privatisation model should be used, eg: UK, Denmark, Germany?

Finland already complies with the infrastructure and operations via RHK which deals with the rail infrastructure and the various train companies, VR and Karelian Trains (owned by VR and Russian Railways). The rail system is open to private freight operators of which there is now one starting.

t.

Ian

 

[judethegreat]

Thanks a lot for all that
You say though VR is a state monopoly then later mention "the various train companies"?
Also what is RHK?
Sorry, I could probably look this up..

 

[rf_ioliver]

Thanks a lot for all that
You say though VR is a state monopoly then later mention "the various train companies"?
Also what is RHK?
Sorry, I could probably look this up..

RHK = Ratahalintokeskus - they manage the infrastructure
VR = Valtion Rautatiet - they run the freight and passenger services, of the latter they have a monopoly under government rules.
Karelian Trains - a company jointly owned by VR and Russian Railways that run the Allegro trains between Helsinki and St.Petersburg.
Junakalusto - a company created jointly between VR and four of the capital region "counties" run acquire and run the rollingstock used on the captital region commuter lines

Freight services are now open to competition, but apart from one company that operated a private line near Kotka* and one open access operator - Fennia Rail - that has now received its first locomotive**.

*https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karhulan–Sunilan_rautatie (in Finnish only)
**http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-open-access-operator-prepares-to-launch.html (in English)


t.

Ian

 

[judethegreat]

Cheers -
I have a special fondness for Finland - possibly its northerlyness and out of the way border with Russia.. I knew a few good Finnish people years ago and this Nokia N900, complete with Finnish keyboard, on which I am typing came from a guy in Rovaniemi -
I really ought to make it there..
Quite pleased their railways are still state owned. Sad this is happening though and I suppose the only way lines may stay open is with "private investment"... Could it be this is actually the plan??

 

[rf_ioliver]

Cheers -
I have a special fondness for Finland - possibly its northerlyness and out of the way border with Russia.. I knew a few good Finnish people years ago and this Nokia N900, complete with Finnish keyboard, on which I am typing came from a guy in Rovaniemi -

N900...where the future of phones should have gone...but...another story.

Finland..yep, great place. Non-Finns have a habit of visiting, discovering sauna, the general lifestyle, marrying a Finnish girl and staying...forever

I really ought to make it there..
Quite pleased their railways are still state owned. Sad this is happening though and I suppose the only way lines may stay open is with "private investment"... Could it be this is actually the plan??

Railways are horribly political here and there is no "plan" for private investment. Coupled with VR's monopoly and attitude - you can see what is happening. Very sad.

t.

Ian

 

[judethegreat]

Happy to hear you've found "it"

Ties here for me..

Re the N900 - you'll know about Jolla?

Railways - if not so much "plan", then maybe "intention" or "hope". I just see the, shall we say, "sneaky" way things happen elsewhere in the world, not just with railways..

There's also the well used tactic in the UK of proposing something more far-reaching than is actually desired, just so plans can be "scaled back" following public protests to the level actually desired in the first place. I'm thinking perhaps Suintio could be an example of this?

From what you say though things could be different in Finland.

Reading about the profits made by VR and the dividend paid to the state - is there actually no subsidy paid out from the state to VR; does VR actually pay it's own costs fully? Sorry if I'm being ultra naive here, but very interesting if this is the case.

The figures of increased road (bus, but also car?) journeys being made suggest either fares are too high or people just prefer other methods of travel. How much public opposition is there to the cuts? Is there potential for local communities to actually take over their own branch line or service, or perhaps preservation groups doing such?

Cheers, and sorry for going on..

 

[rf_ioliver]

Re the N900 - you'll know about Jolla?

Yes. Though I wish they'd have come out with a second device, but the hardware market is *hard*.

Railways - if not so much "plan", then maybe "intention" or "hope". I just see the, shall we say, "sneaky" way things happen elsewhere in the world, not just with railways..

There's also the well used tactic in the UK of proposing something more far-reaching than is actually desired, just so plans can be "scaled back" following public protests to the level actually desired in the first place. I'm thinking perhaps Suintio could be an example of this?

From what you say though things could be different in Finland.

This tactic has been tried before with the removal of commuter services around Turku in the 1980s etc.

Reading about the profits made by VR and the dividend paid to the state - is there actually no subsidy paid out from the state to VR; does VR actually pay it's own costs fully? Sorry if I'm being ultra naive here, but very interesting if this is the case.

Unsure, but I wouldn't call such things too transparent here. We still don't know what really happened over the removal of night train services to the east of the country - cost savings and "lack of use" were claimed, except that the trains were always full and the cost reduction study went "missing". There was a very interesting interview with the head of VR many years ago about this case - you got the impression that trains and passengers were an inconvenience.

The Oulu-Kuopio-Helsinki night train was great...12 hours and it left Oulu earlier than then Rovaniemi-Helsinki train. So you had time for a beer on board and a good night's sleep. Last time I took this about a year before it ceased the restaurant car was empty and I was told that they were not allowed to sell hot food or sandwiches...I ordered a pizza and got it delivered to the train at Kajaani station instead Deliberate run-down of the service if you ask me.

The figures of increased road (bus, but also car?) journeys being made suggest either fares are too high or people just prefer other methods of travel. How much public opposition is there to the cuts? Is there potential for local communities to actually take over their own branch line or service, or perhaps preservation groups doing such?

Cheers, and sorry for going on..

Fares are too high, certainly; and service can be quite poor. People have complained about compulsory seat reservation, demand based pricing etc. Business class services are little more than standard class and good luck trying to get anything other than free tea and coffee.

OnniBus has severely undercut VR and other coach operators who have not reacted at all to competition - kind of similar thing is happening to Finnair with Norwegian - the latter actually providing a better service for less than half the price on many routes!

Lots of opposition to the cuts, but politics rules the day unfortunately.

t.

Ian

 

[Shinkansenfan]

Update.

Recently returned from almost a week in Finland, riding the various line that were threatened with closure. I purchased a 1cl Scandinavian rail pass which I used in Sweden and Finland.

In Finland, first class is essentially 2cl branded as "extra" which means the same 2 x 2 seating but sold as 1 x 2 seating, plus free self serve coffee/tea and newspaper. Disappointing. Hardly worth the railpass price difference between 1cl and 2cl, as the supplement to pay into 1cl on a per trip basis is not that great.

More interesting were the double deck Intercity carriages with the "Duetto" 1 x 2 seating configuration on the upper deck. The single seats swivel (360 degrees) and can be positioned to face a carriage length table and directly face the windows. Very nice. Also on the upper deck was a separate conference compartment containing several seats 1 x 2 configuration, again with the single seat a swivel seat. On most trains these were open and as a 1cl passholder had no issue using those seats. On a couple of trains, VR train staff closed them off and used them as their personal compartment. One staff member appeared to be traveling with a family member and was off duty. Annoying.

Typically, I would help myself to the coffee and newspaper from the Extra Class carriage and settle into the Duetto single seat. Or if the Extra Class carriage was too far removed (not usually a problems as double deck Intercity trains are often just 4-5 cars long), obtain the free coffee from the cafe located downstairs in the same carriage as the Duetto seating.

The good news is that all the threatened lines (trackage) that started this thread, are still serving passenger trains--though in some cases the train frequencies have been cut. But at least there is still train service.

During my travels and conversations with staff, it appeared that these lines were going to be saved. But for how long? Generally, there were good passenger loadings on the threatened lines.

A VR conductor told me that one of the former VR executives was disgruntled when he either was denied a promotion or was forced out, and that he along with Brian Souter started OnniBus, which now directly competes with VR and has underpriced the train fares.

As a result of this trip I've now covered all VR lines that host regularly timetabled trains open to the public, except for the branch to Kolari and the small portion of the line which leaves Finland for St Petersburg near Vainikkala. The Kolari branch has an awkward schedule as I didn't want to hang about that station after arriving at 11:00 to around 18:25 for the return sleeper in the winter snow.

With few exceptions, VR has shuttered the ticket offices at stations which means that there is no public facing staff at most stations. At certain stations the unstaffed waiting room is open late into the night, but it depends upon the station. At other stations, passengers must wait in the cold as there are no indoor waiting facilities. During the winter this can be uncomfortable.

SJ in Sweden has done the same. The new stations do not provide any ticket windows or have any public facing staff.

Overall, this was an excellent trip!

 

[rf_ioliver]

In Finland, first class is essentially 2cl branded as "extra" which means the same 2 x 2 seating but sold as 1 x 2 seating, plus free self serve coffee/tea and newspaper. Disappointing. Hardly worth the railpass price difference between 1cl and 2cl, as the supplement to pay into 1cl on a per trip basis is not that great.

Most business travellers use standard class and the restaurant car (The Duetto cars are very nice). You used to be able to get free food as part of the Extra class, but that was 'discontinued' for your 'safety and comfort'...

This is how it was:

Intercity trains are often just 4-5 cars long), obtain the free coffee from the cafe located downstairs in the same carriage as the Duetto seating.

But that is 4-5 carriages of Finnish loading gauge, double decker. Equivalent to an 8-9 car train in Europe.

During my travels and conversations with staff, it appeared that these lines were going to be saved. But for how long? Generally, there were good passenger loadings on the threatened lines.

A VR conductor told me that one of the former VR executives was disgruntled when he either was denied a promotion or was forced out, and that he along with Brian Souter started OnniBus, which now directly competes with VR and has underpriced the train fares.

Politics, politics, politics...VR have been playing the poor monopoly game for years and Finland suffers...however politics trumps all...sad and annoying, and no-one wants to do anything about it. The closures of certain stations on the commuter routes into Helsinki are even more controversial, but "there's nothing anyone can do" --- #¤%"¤%" politics.

Glad you enjoyed the trip though. Come back in summer when the weather is much more pleasant!

t.

Ian