Archway Travel awarded 74/75 (Fleetwood-Preston)

[Mollman]

When are we likely to hear who gets the 74/75 routes.

Not for a while yet, only just gone out to tender


Mod note: This has been split from the Blackpool Transport thread

 

[northern506]

When are we likely to hear who gets the 74/75 routes.

Archway travel seem to have been awarded the 74/75

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/951771/january-2024-to-december-2024.pdf

 

[LancasterRed]

To be run by transferring Blackpool Transport staff, using new Enviro200s with a slightly extended timetable judging by social media comments from Archway

 

[AlastairFraser]

To be run by transferring Blackpool Transport staff, using new Enviro200s with a slightly extended timetable judging by social media comments from Archway

Seems a little silly when Blackpool handed it back to reduce the staff needs!

 

[Leedsbusman]

Seems a little silly when Blackpool handed it back to reduce the staff needs!

TUPE will apply naturally - it would be a surprise though if everyone wants to move - unless Blackpool aren’t offering alternative work.

 

[AlastairFraser]

TUPE will apply naturally - it would be a surprise though if everyone wants to move - unless Blackpool aren’t offering alternative work.

Is TUPE mandatory in the transport industry?

 

[Leedsbusman]

Is TUPE mandatory in the transport industry?

Its mandatory in any industry.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Its mandatory in any industry.

Sorry, I've no direct experience of it, so wasn't sure how it worked.

 

[Whistler40145]

Archway going in for it, according to their director on Facebook

It has now been confirmed that Blackpool have handed it back, given the history of this service it is an easy assumption that something more serious had happened.

I'd be shocked if Preston Bus got it back.

Quite surprised Coastal Coaches aren't interested

As for Stagecoach, would they take on such a service, having said that, they did take on the Preston to Skipton service

 

[AlastairFraser]

Quite surprised Coastal Coaches aren't interested

As for Stagecoach, would they take on such a service, having said that, they did take on the Preston to Skipton service

Stagecoach already run the 42/61/68 from Preston/Lancaster to Blackpool (which overlap on quite a lot of the route and are commercial), so I can't see them taking it on.
Archway are Fleetwood-based and it makes sense for them to take on to minimise dead running at the Fleetwood end - Lytham to Fleetwood is a bit of a trek too, especially with the traffic on Amounderness Way.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Quite surprised Coastal Coaches aren't interested

As for Stagecoach, would they take on such a service, having said that, they did take on the Preston to Skipton service

Do we know for certain that they weren't? The tender document posted by @northern506 in post #49 says eight tenders were received.

CONTRACT NUMBER	ROUTE DESCRIPTION	SUCCESSFUL OPERATOR	NUMBER OF TENDERS RECEIVED	CONTRACT START DATE	CONTRACT END DATE	TYPE	CONTRACT ANNUAL COST	PRICE: ALTERNATIVE / COMPOSITE	AWARD BASIS
05/075	Preston - Lea - Great Eccleston - Poulton - Fleetwood via Riversway, Catforth, Inskip, Elswick, Thornton Preston - Kirkham - Poulton - Cleveleys - Fleetwood via Riversway, Newton , Weeton, Staining, Thornton	Archway Travel	8	18 August 2024	01 April 2028	Daily Daytime	£1,750,000	-	MC

 

[Andyh82]

If there were 8 bids I’d say everyone in the area bid including Blackpool Transport, Stagecoach, Preston Bus, Coastal Coaches and Transpora

 

[buslad1988]

TUPE will apply naturally - it would be a surprise though if everyone wants to move - unless Blackpool aren’t offering alternative work.

It’s unusual for driving staff to transfer companies (outside London and franchising areas) in relation to individual services. I’ve known cases where Park & Ride contracted staff have TUPE’d but when you’re talking a couple of routes it does seem odd. Even more so when the statement Blackpool Transport put out was that it would be utilising the newly available resources to make improvements to their core network.

 

[Leedsbusman]

It’s unusual for driving staff to transfer companies (outside London and franchising areas) in relation to individual services. I’ve known cases where Park & Ride contracted staff have TUPE’d but when you’re talking a couple of routes it does seem odd. Even more so when the statement Blackpool Transport put out was that it would be utilising the newly available resources to make improvements to their core network.

it’s more common in contracts of this size - 8PVR. I understand it’s a dedicated roster so a clear case of it being the primary work for the drivers.

Archway may be just assuming everyone will move given that they may not have much experience of this. There is quite an distance between depots so it may not be attractive to some.

Blackpool might offer alternative employment - as is its right. However it has to follow the process legally.

 

[158756]

Stagecoach already run the 42/61/68 from Preston/Lancaster to Blackpool (which overlap on quite a lot of the route and are commercial), so I can't see them taking it on.
Archway are Fleetwood-based and it makes sense for them to take on to minimise dead running at the Fleetwood end - Lytham to Fleetwood is a bit of a trek too, especially with the traffic on Amounderness Way.

Archway will be able to minimise dead running at the Fleetwood end, but there will be a lot at the Preston end. For some reason it appears in the current timetable 4 of the 8 vehicles end the day at Preston, a long way from both Blackpool Transport and Archway depots. (2 buses also start at Preston in the morning)

Actually the evening timetable on the 74 and 75 just seems weird. Preston is a fairly big place, so you'd assume there might be some demand for later evening departures, but four buses arrive in Preston and run back to the coast empty after the last passenger departure at 19:40. I understand money is tight, but in that case I'm surprised that the last bus south from Poulton runs at 20:30 all the way to Preston and back empty, but there isn't enough money for a similarly timed departure from Preston using a bus that has to run empty anyway.

Is this some council policy on evening buses, like they won't fund a later departure from Preston because it'd be after 8pm or something, but the last bus from Fleetwood not getting back to the depot till after 10 is OK because it started before 8?

 

[Leedsbusman]

Archway will be able to minimise dead running at the Fleetwood end, but there will be a lot at the Preston end. For some reason it appears in the current timetable 4 of the 8 vehicles end the day at Preston, a long way from both Blackpool Transport and Archway depots. (2 buses also start at Preston in the morning)

Actually the evening timetable on the 74 and 75 just seems weird. Preston is a fairly big place, so you'd assume there might be some demand for later evening departures, but four buses arrive in Preston and run back to the coast empty after the last passenger departure at 19:40. I understand money is tight, but in that case I'm surprised that the last bus south from Poulton runs at 20:30 all the way to Preston and back empty, but there isn't enough money for a similarly timed departure from Preston using a bus that has to run empty anyway.

Is this some council policy on evening buses, like they won't fund a later departure from Preston because it'd be after 8pm or something, but the last bus from Fleetwood not getting back to the depot till after 10 is OK because it started before 8?

No it’s presumably a local authority specifying a timetable which could be run from either end. Bidders could add extras as an option bid which may be why they have 8 bids (not necessarily eight bidders).

Archway have said some Poulton starting/finishing trips will extend to Fleetwood. As for Preston it’s nearly two hours for a single trip and 37 mins by car Preston to Archway depot now then it would be cheaper just to run dead. To Blackpool’s depot is only 29 mins.

Stagecoach and Preston Bus also run dead to St. Annes, Blackpool and Poulton from their depots in Preston.

 

[158756]

No it’s presumably a local authority specifying a timetable which could be run from either end. Bidders could add extras as an option bid which may be why they have 8 bids (not necessarily eight bidders).

Archway have said some Poulton starting/finishing trips will extend to Fleetwood. As for Preston it’s nearly two hours for a single trip and 37 mins by car Preston to Archway depot now then it would be cheaper just to run dead. To Blackpool’s depot is only 29 mins.

Stagecoach and Preston Bus also run dead to St. Annes, Blackpool and Poulton from their depots in Preston.

Just looking at the current timetable, as we don't know exactly what Archway's changes will be, but the last buses from Preston only run to Poulton anyway, so the cost of an extra journey would only be about an hour minus the time it takes to run dead anyway. I find it hard to believe there isn't demand for that out of Preston at say half past eight but there is to run a bus the other way and then back to the depot taking over an hour and a half in total.

Maybe they get more bidders this way, but how much does it cost to operate? To me it doesn't look like a timetable any commercial operator would set, with the last buses both finishing at the far end of the route from the depot and running against what you'd usually expect to be the major traffic flow in the evening. The Stagecoach examples have dead running because they run buses out of Preston in the evening in service and then back in empty (and vice versa in the morning), but the 74/75 do the opposite of that.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Just looking at the current timetable, as we don't know exactly what Archway's changes will be, but the last buses from Preston only run to Poulton anyway, so the cost of an extra journey would only be about an hour minus the time it takes to run dead anyway. I find it hard to believe there isn't demand for that out of Preston at say half past eight but there is to run a bus the other way and then back to the depot taking over an hour and a half in total.

Maybe they get more bidders this way, but how much does it cost to operate? To me it doesn't look like a timetable any commercial operator would set, with the last buses both finishing at the far end of the route from the depot and running against what you'd usually expect to be the major traffic flow in the evening. The Stagecoach examples have dead running because they run buses out of Preston in the evening in service and then back in empty (and vice versa in the morning), but the 74/75 do the opposite of that.

It’s a tendered service so by its nature the costs exceed the revenue. So running for an extra hour v the dead trip seems unlikely to be worth while.

 

[markymark2000]

Archway have said some Poulton starting/finishing trips will extend to Fleetwood. As for Preston it’s nearly two hours for a single trip and 37 mins by car Preston to Archway depot now then it would be cheaper just to run dead. To Blackpool’s depot is only 29 mins.

I'd be running an X74 service to get the bus out of Preston back to Fleetwood. Either using the 75 route then the West Bypass or going up Garstang Road. Off the Motorway at Jct 3 then using the A585 most of the way to Fleetwood. Divert off if where it feels appropriate for potentially increased usage such as Poulton and Thornton (perhaps as set down only). To give the best potential, run on request into Fleetwood itself. Of course if no one wants it, the bus runs into the depot so no extra cost unless there is a passenger. If anything, you gain from this because you can't claim Bus Service Operators Grant (BSOG) on dead mileage to/from a tender. If however you run a commercial placement route, you would be able to claim BSOG for that trip so it's basically free money.

Just looking at the current timetable, as we don't know exactly what Archway's changes will be, but the last buses from Preston only run to Poulton anyway, so the cost of an extra journey would only be about an hour minus the time it takes to run dead anyway. I find it hard to believe there isn't demand for that out of Preston at say half past eight but there is to run a bus the other way and then back to the depot taking over an hour and a half in total.

Archway has given details but only done so in Facebook comments.
Link to first comment

Archway Travel LTD
the only changes we are planning on making is extending morning journeys that begin in Poulton and Gt Ecc to begin in Fleetwood meaning the first bus from Fleetwood will now be 05:20

Link to second comment

Archway Travel LTD
unfortunately the last 74 bus is still 19:10 but we are extending this through to Fleetwood instead of it terminating in Poulton

 

[LancasterRed]

Quite surprised Coastal Coaches aren't interested

As for Stagecoach, would they take on such a service, having said that, they did take on the Preston to Skipton service

Coastal Coaches had the service once before and it was a disaster. Lasted a year with a horribly unreliable service

Preston Bus have also had it in the past and that had reliability issues

 

[M60lad]

I might be wrong but I'm sure Stagecoach have run the services in the past when they used to have the Fleetwood outstation.

 

[Whistler40145]

I might be wrong but I'm sure Stagecoach have run the services in the past when they used to have the Fleetwood outstation.

Stagecoach as Ribble Motors in pre privatisation days most likely operated the service too

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'd be running an X74 service to get the bus out of Preston back to Fleetwood. Either using the 75 route then the West Bypass or going up Garstang Road. Off the Motorway at Jct 3 then using the A585 most of the way to Fleetwood. Divert off if where it feels appropriate for potentially increased usage such as Poulton and Thornton (perhaps as set down only). To give the best potential, run on request into Fleetwood itself. Of course if no one wants it, the bus runs into the depot so no extra cost unless there is a passenger. If anything, you gain from this because you can't claim Bus Service Operators Grant (BSOG) on dead mileage to/from a tender. If however you run a commercial placement route, you would be able to claim BSOG for that trip so it's basically free money.

Unlikely to be any significant demand to run this in service. The 61/68 parallel a lot more of the route, and you can change in Kirkham for the 76/78, plus go into Blackpool for the 14 towards Fleetwood/Carleton/Thornton (most of the northern half of the 74/75 routes).

 

[Leedsbusman]

I'd be running an X74 service to get the bus out of Preston back to Fleetwood. Either using the 75 route then the West Bypass or going up Garstang Road. Off the Motorway at Jct 3 then using the A585 most of the way to Fleetwood. Divert off if where it feels appropriate for potentially increased usage such as Poulton and Thornton (perhaps as set down only). To give the best potential, run on request into Fleetwood itself. Of course if no one wants it, the bus runs into the depot so no extra cost unless there is a passenger. If anything, you gain from this because you can't claim Bus Service Operators Grant (BSOG) on dead mileage to/from a tender. If however you run a commercial placement route, you would be able to claim BSOG for that trip so it's basically free money.

If it was "free money" then surely everyone would be doing it. Archway probably wouldn't see it as worth the effort of setting up a BSOG account to claim it though. Unfortunately even a limited stop will take longer to run than a dead service even if nobody uses it as you need to provide a timetable that is achievable to meet compliance requirements. I doubt the BSOG is worth it, if you add in 5 or 10 mins paid driver time to provide the recovery time/boarding time you would need for the live trip. Sometimes it is just most affordable to run dead. And if that keeps the costs down so you win the tender then its a decent result for the operator.

Looks like Archway aren’t relying on TUPE transfers:

✔️We are progressing really well with our recruitment drive for the new upcoming 74 & 75 'Fylde Villager' Services and the new buses will be joining us soon.

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[Whistler40145]

Were the drivers specifically taken on by Blackpool Transport with route knowledge for the 74/75 and they're the ones being TUPED so that Archway aren't having to source drivers?

Also, drivers changed at Poulton-le-Fylde in both directions, is this a mandatory requirement?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Were the drivers specifically taken on by Blackpool Transport with route knowledge for the 74/75 and they're the ones being TUPED so that Archway aren't having to source drivers?

Also, drivers changed at Poulton-le-Fylde in both directions, is this a mandatory requirement?

I think it's just a convenient location to swap over - it's about halfway with running time and any issues (esp. requiring a vehicle swap) can be sorted relatively quick with a blast down Amounderness Way for a new bus from Archway's depot in Fleetwood, rather then following the winding route through Thornton and Burn Naze.

 

[Busaholic]

Stagecoach as Ribble Motors in pre privatisation days most likely operated the service too

My vague memories of the services from the 1970s and early 1980s were that Frenchwood and Blackpool jointly operated the services, but never Fleetwood while it was still a depot. Difficult then to thing that Ribble would ever desert Blackpool given all their infrastructure there, but the NBC weren't interested in Ribble's glorious history any more than any BET company they inherited. Bob Dylan got it right, as he usually did, ''The Times They Are A'Changin' ''.