Are any Northern diagrams getting strengthened at Dec 17 timetable change?

[northwichcat]

With Blackpool-Preston being closed until March and then only getting a limited service until next May and the first few GWR 150s starting to arrive and most Dec 17 enhancements being postponed, will any Northern diagrams getting strengthened at timetable change?

 

[northernchris]

They won't be that many additional units available and even though Preston-Blackpool is closed there's still been a lot of short forms this week. The Calder Valley will also require at least one additional unit from next week

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the Calder Vale extension was off-peak only meaning it doesn't need any additional units over what would be used on Calder Vale at peak times.

 

[darloscott]

North East are getting an extra 142 to increase service between Darlington & Bishop Auckland to hourly

 

[Starmill]

There are presently a large number of short formations. Yesterday was especially bad. The reasons that I have been given for this are:
- Some additional services were running
- Some trains out of use due to wheel flats?
- Extra trains have gone away to the works since Blackpool closed

I don't know how accurate these are. In a week's time there will need to be extra units resourced on weekdays for the Bishop line and the half-hourly Ribble Valley line service to Blackburn too. Other changes mostly affect Sundays - and on Sundays the number of extra units required in service is probably quite large.

I thought the Calder Vale extension was off-peak only meaning it doesn't need any additional units over what would be used on Calder Vale at peak times.

This was my understanding too. There are only 6 weekday services to Manchester Oxford Road.

 

[northernchris]

The current Calder Valley diagrams are quite complex with some units having long layovers at Victoria and others doing one round trip before switching to other lines, and from looking at RTT from next week units will stay out all day. But given the layover at Oxford Road is around 40 minutes, and those which terminate at Victoria on the opposite hour have 67 minutes turnaround I would have thought that would require an additional unit

 

[northwichcat]

The current Calder Valley diagrams are quite complex with some units having long layovers at Victoria and others doing one round trip before switching to other lines, and from looking at RTT from next week units will stay out all day. But given the layover at Oxford Road is around 40 minutes, and those which terminate at Victoria on the opposite hour have 67 minutes turnaround I would have thought that would require an additional unit

There are Calder Vale diagrams which are 2-3 cars at off-peak times and 4-5 at peak times. Given the extension is off-peak only I would have thought it's a case of simply keeping a unit in service between the morning and evening peaks, rather than leaving it stabled somewhere for around 7 hours.

 

[175001]

The GWR units will be used to begin half hourly Vic to Blackburn via Darren

 

[lejog]

There are Calder Vale diagrams which are 2-3 cars at off-peak times and 4-5 at peak times. Given the extension is off-peak only I would have thought it's a case of simply keeping a unit in service between the morning and evening peaks, rather than leaving it stabled somewhere for around 7 hours.

The Blackpool closure should free up a 158 from the York-Blackpool service which could well be added to the Leeds-Victoria-(Oxford Road) diagrams. Although whether this would represent an extra unit or just a stand in for 158s/155s away for refurbishments I don't know.

 

[Karl]

The Preston-Colne Sunday service is to become an hourly service instead of the usual 2 hourly service.

 

[xotGD]

The Preston-Colne Sunday service is to become an hourly service instead of the usual 2 hourly service.

Just a pity it can't be extended to Skipton...

 

[northernchris]

It now appears as though some Calder Valley services have had a reduction in capacity now some services extend to Oxford Road. For example the 0718 Leeds-Manchester Victoria used to be a 3 car 158, but last 2 mornings has been a 155. Yesterday's 1648 Manchester Victoria-Leeds was 150+153 whereas used to be allocated 150+142. And surprisingly this mornings 0751 Leeds-Manchester Victoria was showing on JourneyCheck as being formed of 3 coaches rather than 2! I hope this is an error as the inward arrival is full and standing throughout with 3 coaches and often arrives late in Leeds if short formed, impacting on the next journey due to only having a 5 minute turnaround

 

[Loop & Link]

It now appears as though some Calder Valley services have had a reduction in capacity now some services extend to Oxford Road. For example the 0718 Leeds-Manchester Victoria used to be a 3 car 158, but last 2 mornings has been a 155. Yesterday's 1648 Manchester Victoria-Leeds was 150+153 whereas used to be allocated 150+142. And surprisingly this mornings 0751 Leeds-Manchester Victoria was showing on JourneyCheck as being formed of 3 coaches rather than 2! I hope this is an error as the inward arrival is full and standing throughout with 3 coaches and often arrives late in Leeds if short formed, impacting on the next journey due to only having a 5 minute turnaround

All correct traction re the above, that 07:51 Leeds-Man Vic is now a 158/2 now too.

 

[Starmill]

The Preston-Colne Sunday service is to become an hourly service instead of the usual 2 hourly service.

This makes Church & Oswaldtwistle one of the strangest stations in the country, that now has double the frequency of services on Sunday as Monday to Friday!

 

[northernchris]

All correct traction re the above, that 07:51 Leeds-Man Vic is now a 158/2 now too.

Very disappointing that one of the busiest routes has lost peak time capacity, presumably in order just to run an occasional service across Ordsall Chord. Would it not have been better to hold off using the chord until additional stock was available thus protecting capacity for the maority

 

[IanXC]

Very disappointing that one of the busiest routes has lost peak time capacity, presumably in order just to run an occasional service across Ordsall Chord. Would it not have been better to hold off using the chord until additional stock was available thus protecting capacity for the maority

The first train of the morning to use the Ordsall Chord in the current weekday timetable is the 0850 departure from Manchester Victoria towards Oxford Road, and the last is the 1638 departure from Oxford Road to Leeds. Hardly peak time!

 

[philthetube]

This makes Church & Oswaldtwistle one of the strangest stations in the country, that now has double the frequency of services on Sunday as Monday to Friday!

Church and Oswaldtwistle has an hourly service every day

 

[superkev]

They must be desperately short of units as Mondays Leeds to Oxford road service passing Hebden bridge at 15.06 was a single coach 153. It was 28 min late by Victoria.
K

 

[Mathew S]

They must be desperately short of units as Mondays Leeds to Oxford road service passing Hebden bridge at 15.06 was a single coach 153. It was 28 min late by Victoria.
K

More services to run, but no more units to run them. Plus the need for units to be out of service for refurbishment. Can't make life easy for the Northern planners.

 

[northwichcat]

The first train of the morning to use the Ordsall Chord in the current weekday timetable is the 0850 departure from Manchester Victoria towards Oxford Road, and the last is the 1638 departure from Oxford Road to Leeds. Hardly peak time!

I'm not sure what 'shoulder peak' Calder Vale loadings are like but I know of a number of lines which get very well loaded services between 15:30 and 16:30, especially on Friday afternoons.

 

[northwichcat]

More services to run, but no more units to run them. Plus the need for units to be out of service for refurbishment. Can't make life easy for the Northern planners.

Northern have received 3 x 150s from GWR but I don't think they've entered service yet.

 

[Starmill]

Church and Oswaldtwistle has an hourly service every day

No it doesn't, it has 2tph on Sunday.

 

[Eccles1983]

No it doesn't, it has 2tph on Sunday.

It has an hourly service mon- sat.

It gets doubled on sundays because the vic - blackburn stops there.

 

[Starmill]

It has an hourly service mon- sat.

It gets doubled on sundays because the vic - blackburn stops there.

Yes! Funnily enough that's exactly what I just said...

This makes Church & Oswaldtwistle one of the strangest stations in the country, that now has double the frequency of services on Sunday as Monday to Friday!

 

[Eccles1983]

Yes! Funnily enough that's exactly what I just said...

Crossed wires,

I skipped past your first post and clocked the second.

Apologies.

 

[northernchris]

The first train of the morning to use the Ordsall Chord in the current weekday timetable is the 0850 departure from Manchester Victoria towards Oxford Road, and the last is the 1638 departure from Oxford Road to Leeds. Hardly peak time!

Whilst the extension may not be during peak times it has still led to a rejig of diagrams which has reduced the capacity of peak time arrivals in Leeds and Manchester

 

[Bovverboy]

Whilst the extension may not be during peak times it has still led to a rejig of diagrams which has reduced the capacity of peak time arrivals in Leeds and Manchester

DMUs are scheduled to arrive at Victoria at 0824 and 0830 then to undertake no further public service before returning to Newton Heath depot. At Piccadilly, the AM peak is over at 0730!
In an afternoon units are arriving at Victoria ex Newton Heath up to 1833, and at Piccadilly up to 1651.
So it follows that there should be no difficulty in finding a unit able to extend an 0847 Victoria arrival to Oxford Road, nor any in finding one able to start the 1648 Victoria to Leeds back from Oxford Road. If capacity has been cut on Victoria/Leeds journeys, it is for other reasons.

 

[Starmill]

led to a rejig of diagrams which has reduced the capacity of peak time arrivals in Leeds and Manchester

Is this really true? I have been wondering this myself as there has been an apparent increase in complaints. The 0751 Leeds to Manchester Vic seems to be drawing a lot of complaining especially. But if any critical services have actually had their number of coaches reduced it would be interesting to know.

 

[darloscott]

Is this really true? I have been wondering this myself as there has been an apparent increase in complaints. The 0751 Leeds to Manchester Vic seems to be drawing a lot of complaining especially. But if any critical services have actually had their number of coaches reduced it would be interesting to know.

If the units are taking an extra hour to go to Manchester (going onto Oxford Road) and back then it'll mean they'll end up in a different place later in the day from where they were previously. This will mean they'll have had to change some of the peak time trains which may be required on set services earlier or later in the day.

 

[Starmill]

This will mean they'll have had to change some of the peak time trains which may be required on set services earlier or later in the day.

Naturally. But this isn't what I asked. Have any critical peak arrivals been reduced in length to the point where people can't get on them any more? This is not clear.