Are any operators still only accepting cash?

[Bletchleyite]

I haven't travelled in London for about a year, but when I do go I use my Senior card on London Buses. I have never had to 'tap in' (the cards are contactless so you don't have to touch the machines) and just show them to the driver. The drivers don't seem to notice or respond at all. Even if they do press a button to acknowledge my boarding, there is no audit trail of me being on the bus. So how do TFL get reimbursed for my fare, if indeed they do get a payment?

London is done differently to everywhere else, as usual. I suspect acceptance of cards is probably just factored into the contract payment.

There are other payment providers now, but would anyone be willing to have an allegedly company mobile phone presented to you so you could pay by app?

Yes, why wouldn't I? A bus driver running a card fraud scheme would be so easy to catch that it'd be easier to just pocket any cash fares.

 

[Boo_]

Is it that hard to believe that the once a fortnight community run service to the nearest town don’t accept contactless?
What about National Express? I believe you can still buy tickets onboard, I seriously doubt they have card machines onboard

They don't take card and you can only buy single on coach and only to places that coach calls at and they may not call at the stop if no one is booked. I would often take out all seats if service was running late and tell driver to only go off driver chart. Often people would buy a ticket and try get off mid route but would find out they are going to place on there ticket.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I haven't travelled in London for about a year, but when I do go I use my Senior card on London Buses. I have never had to 'tap in' (the cards are contactless so you don't have to touch the machines) and just show them to the driver. The drivers don't seem to notice or respond at all. Even if they do press a button to acknowledge my boarding, there is no audit trail of me being on the bus. So how do TFL get reimbursed for my fare, if indeed they do get a payment?

That was because Tfl used their own Oyster system whilst the rest of Britain use ITSO, which is the national standard for smart cards, therefore London ticket machines couldn't read anyone else's smart cards! This may since have changed since Tfl updated their systems with the advent of them accepting contactless bank cards.

 

[Deerfold]

That was because Tfl used their own Oyster system whilst the rest of Britain use ITSO, which is the national standard for smart cards, therefore London ticket machines couldn't read anyone else's smart cards! This may since have changed since Tfl updated their systems with the advent of them accepting contactless bank cards.

Oddly TfL updated the system to take all ENTCS passes several years ago, but it never seems to have been activated - presumably there is a problem of some sort.
They can read some other ITSO cards.

The reason TfL didn't use ITSO initially was because it didn't exist when they started designing Oyster.

 

[Westcountryman]

That was because Tfl used their own Oyster system whilst the rest of Britain use ITSO, which is the national standard for smart cards, therefore London ticket machines couldn't read anyone else's smart cards! This may since have changed since Tfl updated their systems with the advent of them accepting contactless bank cards.

It hasn't. Contactless bank payments have been taken for several years. ENTCS passes are not. I have had my card for well over 3 years, and before I had it I frequently travelled to London on weekdays. I always bought a travelcard, but frequently arrived in London before an off-peak card was valid. So I used to hop on a bus paying with contactless and do one trip before the 9.0 start time.

It is the other way round now. I use my ENTCS card on the bus and pay contactless for the Underground.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I wouldn't like to say for certain, but I wonder if the situation is less to do with the ticket machines themselves, and more to do with charges made by the banks? The costs associated with handheld card machines can be eyewateringly expensive and often require a good deal of regular business to make it worthwhile (thus probably explaining why so many "enthusiast market stalls" only take cash in the same fashion). As such, for a small operator with a handful of tendered routes, it might not actually make financial sense for the few cash payers they do get.

There are other payment providers now, but would anyone be willing to have an allegedly company mobile phone presented to you so you could pay by app?

ITSO Smartcards are a much simpler reading technology than EMV (credit/debit cards). Ticketer machines for example were able to read ITSO smartcards from day one - circa 2012. Only the latest machines from circa 2017 have been EMV, and the earliest machines can’t be adapted. So to move to accepting payment cards requires 1. A brand new ticket machine (circa £2500 - £3000), 2. annual licence fees for the software, and 3. a commission charge for every card transaction. So for marginal services, or those where most passengers are concessions, or for tenders (where generally the local authority won’t care about contactless, they just want the cheapest price), there is no case to upgrade.

 

[Qwerty133]

ITSO Smartcards are a much simpler reading technology than EMV (credit/debit cards). Ticketer machines for example were able to read ITSO smartcards from day one - circa 2012. Only the latest machines from circa 2017 have been EMV, and the earliest machines can’t be adapted. So to move to accepting payment cards requires 1. A brand new ticket machine (circa £2500 - £3000), 2. annual licence fees for the software, and 3. a commission charge for every card transaction. So for marginal services, or those where most passengers are concessions, or for tenders (where generally the local authority won’t care about contactless, they just want the cheapest price), there is no case to upgrade.

For these more marginal routes that probably see a handful of passengers wishing to sell a ticket on a good day operators need to look at more creative solutions to offer card payments on board, as it really doesn't matter if card payments take slightly longer on such routes and therefore operators need not be restricted to integrated systems. Clearly it makes little sense to invest several grand in dedicated ticket machines, but with things like this available on the market for less than £200 with no monthly fees and no requirement to link to a mobile phone it really shouldn't cost that much to set up a system suitable for most quieter routes (and a 10p increase in fares would be more than enough to cover the transaction fee so that is no excuse).

 

[Bletchleyite]

ITSO Smartcards are a much simpler reading technology than EMV (credit/debit cards). Ticketer machines for example were able to read ITSO smartcards from day one - circa 2012. Only the latest machines from circa 2017 have been EMV, and the earliest machines can’t be adapted. So to move to accepting payment cards requires 1. A brand new ticket machine (circa £2500 - £3000), 2. annual licence fees for the software, and 3. a commission charge for every card transaction. So for marginal services, or those where most passengers are concessions, or for tenders (where generally the local authority won’t care about contactless, they just want the cheapest price), there is no case to upgrade.

We all know about railway inflation (OK, it's buses), but how on earth does a ticket machine get to three grand? There's no more technology in one than a £200 Android mobile phone, other than a thermal printer which doesn't cost £2,800. In particular the Ticketer machines are of modular construction and appear to consist of a 7" Android tablet connected to off the shelf thermal printers and NFC card readers.

I'd have expected £1000 at absolute most, probably £800 or below.

 

[duncombec]

ITSO Smartcards are a much simpler reading technology than EMV (credit/debit cards). Ticketer machines for example were able to read ITSO smartcards from day one - circa 2012. Only the latest machines from circa 2017 have been EMV, and the earliest machines can’t be adapted. So to move to accepting payment cards requires 1. A brand new ticket machine (circa £2500 - £3000), 2. annual licence fees for the software, and 3. a commission charge for every card transaction. So for marginal services, or those where most passengers are concessions, or for tenders (where generally the local authority won’t care about contactless, they just want the cheapest price), there is no case to upgrade.

Interesting - I knew they were different sorts of technology, but not that earlier machines couldn't be upgraded. Presumably for those operators who upgraded just before EMV came into operation may not have depreciated the older machines enough (I'm not a financier - I think that's the right word!) to be looking at replacements. I know the company I used to commute with looked at standard card terminals, and decided that the rental costs of 40-or-so card readers just didn't stack up - it was "better" to create an app and go off bus ticketing! (Granted that was only for a commuter service, up and back, and may have come out differently had they had a daytime operation).
There is a one-bus operation local to me that has Ticketer machines which read smartcards, but doesn't offer contactless. As there were two of the dozen passengers on my last journey under ENCTS age, I doubt it's worth it for them to upgrade as you suggest.

We all know about railway inflation (OK, it's buses), but how on earth does a ticket machine get to three grand? There's no more technology in one than a £200 Android mobile phone, other than a thermal printer which doesn't cost £2,800. In particular the Ticketer machines are of modular construction and appear to consist of a 7" Android tablet connected to off the shelf thermal printers and NFC card readers.

I'd have expected £1000 at absolute most, probably £800 or below.

It sounds a lot, I grant you. Obviously manufacturers are wary of having their prices public, but I found a couple of operators selling their old stock on ebay un two bands, ca. £150-200 per machine, or £450-500 per machine. But then you could also say why does a laptop cost £800+ when it's a few circuit boards and bits of plastic?

This link: https://www.westofengland-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Contactless-FBC-2.5.2-FINAL-Clean.pdf contains some finances in section 3.2. If I've read it correctly, for ca. 70 machines to be provided by WECA to smaller operators to allow them to take contactless, the one-off capital cost for "ETM hardware; install; and delivery" is stated at £320,133, with a further £37,681.11 for "ETM back office software; support; maintenance; and cEMV support". Dividing those costs by 70 comes to more than £3000 each!

 

[Boo_]

Interesting - I knew they were different sorts of technology, but not that earlier machines couldn't be upgraded. Presumably for those operators who upgraded just before EMV came into operation may not have depreciated the older machines enough (I'm not a financier - I think that's the right word!) to be looking at replacements. I know the company I used to commute with looked at standard card terminals, and decided that the rental costs of 40-or-so card readers just didn't stack up - it was "better" to create an app and go off bus ticketing! (Granted that was only for a commuter service, up and back, and may have come out differently had they had a daytime operation).
There is a one-bus operation local to me that has Ticketer machines which read smartcards, but doesn't offer contactless. As there were two of the dozen passengers on my last journey under ENCTS age, I doubt it's worth it for them to upgrade as you suggest.


It sounds a lot, I grant you. Obviously manufacturers are wary of having their prices public, but I found a couple of operators selling their old stock on ebay un two bands, ca. £150-200 per machine, or £450-500 per machine. But then you could also say why does a laptop cost £800+ when it's a few circuit boards and bits of plastic?

This link: https://www.westofengland-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Contactless-FBC-2.5.2-FINAL-Clean.pdf contains some finances in section 3.2. If I've read it correctly, for ca. 70 machines to be provided by WECA to smaller operators to allow them to take contactless, the one-off capital cost for "ETM hardware; install; and delivery" is stated at £320,133, with a further £37,681.11 for "ETM back office software; support; maintenance; and cEMV support". Dividing those costs by 70 comes to more than £3000 each!

You can`t just buy Ticketer machines. They come with a service plan and you have to pay them for a licence and any updates. It's the Same with most units; you may have the hardware but they need the data link and they're not keen on 2nd hand kit when they can sell you new.

 

[markymark2000]

I think it's worth saying that Ticketer is more than just a bog standard ticket machine. The back office stuff is very good and that is why operators have chosen them. In built messaging (with keyboard for drivers to reply rather than on the Vix machines where you can only send standard replies back to the office), you get read receipts there as well. It comes with in built vehicle tracking (something which previously required additional software), you can change everything via the cloud so any issues are fixed quicker. Real time analytical reports. Options to modify the drivers screen to make it easier to find tickets. Easier for drivers to log in and changeover buses. A lot of operational stuff as well included like the revenue protection QR codes, first use checks, fault reporting, some firms have the duties online so less codes are needed. Real time timekeeping analysis.

You aren't paying for a ticket machine. You are paying basically for something which is an all rounder machine, can reduce paper and make life easier for everyone. Ticketer I believe are very good with support as well.


As for selling Ticketers, the machine might be available online for cheap but you can't just plug and play like other firms. You have to send it back to Ticketer to get the machine refreshed and change the company details which are seemingly locked.

 

[GusB]

We are drifting off-topic somewhat. There is a separate thread for discussing Ticketer somewhere if you wish to continue this subject.

 

[Taunton]

I haven't travelled in London for about a year, but when I do go I use my Senior card on London Buses. I have never had to 'tap in' (the cards are contactless so you don't have to touch the machines) and just show them to the driver. The drivers don't seem to notice or respond at all. Even if they do press a button to acknowledge my boarding, there is no audit trail of me being on the bus. So how do TFL get reimbursed for my fare, if indeed they do get a payment?

I understand there was a technology issue which meant cards from the provinces could not be read by TfL ticket machines. Until resolved, such trips were just "free", courtesy of me, the London council tax payer. Part of London tickets being based on the Oyster system rather than the ITSO system that provincial operators have to use.

 

[Stan_Butler]

I think Londoners, whether tax payers or not, are net beneficiaries of additional public spending on public transport from UK wide tax payers so “free” concession card journeys should not cause a problem.

 

[Deerfold]

I understand there was a technology issue which meant cards from the provinces could not be read by TfL ticket machines. Until resolved, such trips were just "free", courtesy of me, the London council tax payer. Part of London tickets being based on the Oyster system rather than the ITSO system that provincial operators have to use.

The fact that tickets cannot be read by TfL buses does not change who pays for the journeys.

Journeys are always paid for by local councils or agencies; they're not charged back to the council of origin.

That's why some councils like Blackpool complain that they have lots of tourists visiting who they have to pay for.

 

[Boo_]

it swings and roundabouts as TFL passes get used out of TFL also

 

[Bungle965]

This thread has run it's course, discussions on Tfl or Ticketer can be made by opening a new thread.
Thanks
Bus & Coach Moderators