Are concessionary pass holders 'entitled freeloaders'?

[Dai Corner]

Quote is from another thread but I think it deserves one of its own.

Unfortunately, the entitled free loaders (sorry, concessionary pass holders) are the vocal ones when it comes to running buses.

Discuss.

 

[GusB]

Quote is from another thread but I think it deserves one of its own.



Discuss.

I hope you're suitably kitted out...

 

[Dai Corner]

I hope you're suitably kitted out...

Full disclosure: I'm a holder of a Welsh concessionary pass, valid on TrawsCymu which was being discussed in the original thread.

Background: Operators are reimbursed for the use of concessionary passes and the amount is calculated such that they make neither or a profit or a loss.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Full disclosure: I'm a holder of a Welsh concessionary pass, valid on TrawsCymu which was being discussed in the original thread.

Background: Operators are reimbursed for the use of concessionary passes and the amount is calculated such that they make neither or a profit or a loss.

Well, that’s the theory. In practice it doesn’t work like that, but that’s not the fault of the passholders!

 

[Dai Corner]

Well, that’s the theory. In practice it doesn’t work like that, but that’s not the fault of the passholders!

Do they make a profit or a loss? Or does it vary?

 

[Eyersey468]

Do they make a profit or a loss? Or does it vary?

A lot of services struggle to cover costs if they are full of passholders as the bus companies get paid so little.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well, I think some are.

There is certainly an attitude of 'I've paid for this all my life' when clearly they haven't because it never formed part of the tax or national insurance 'deal' through their working lives. Not saying they shouldn't have the pass but, on a point of order, it is funded by current taxes not previous contributions.

Then there is the 'why should I pay at peak times'? Whilst I can see some merit in this argument my view would be: I would otherwise be paying £1,000 (annual bus co pass) for travel, I'm getting most of my travel free now, so I don't mind paying for the occasional peak time journey. That of course depends on the frequency of service, amount paid for peak travel and purpose of travel. If you have, say, regular NHS clinic appointments and they require peak travel it wouldn't be occasional. Conversly there are those who are able to use the free pass to get to work.

Do they make a profit or a loss? Or does it vary?

A lot of services struggle to cover costs if they are full of passholders as the bus companies get paid so little.

There is certainly a lot of discussion around the re-imbursement rate. Locally it is around 95p per journey.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

If we look at South Yorkshire's "Freedom Riders" who demonstrated in Sheffield railway station a few years back who demanded that the reduced cost rail travel offer to continue but SYPTE at the time could no longer afford it and fell back in line with the rest of the country at 0930.

The behavior of these induviduals didn't go down well with my parents who stated that "these ungreatful pillocks in South Yorkshire should be lucky, here in West Yorkshire we have to pay and so should they."

 

[GusB]

My answer to the original poster's question is: it depends!

My (now departed) mum had a concession pass before she reached retirement age because her illness (she was bipolar) determined that she was entitled to one. She used it to make trips into town to meet with people from her support groups and did a bit of shopping while she was there. Having such a pass meant that she didn't have to rely on anyone else to get about and it thus gave her a bit more freedom and independence. Don't get me wrong, if I wasn't doing anything her preferred method was to get me to drive her to various places, but I'd have done that anyway. Either way, if I wasn't around, having a pass gave her the ability to travel without feeling that she needed to impose on anyone else. Did she use her pass for the occasional jolly? Yes, but it wasn't a frequent occurrence.

My dad, on the other hand, made far more use of his pass to make long-distance journeys, paying only the 50p booking fee that was required on Citylink/Megabus services. Would this be classed as a "sense of entitlement"? Yes, I'd probably agree that it was, but he had worked all his life and getting a bus pass is seen as a perk of reaching retirement age; you can't blame the individual for the way the system is set up.

The biggest problem is that that people see "free" as having no cost, when this is clearly not the case. When I was a kid, concessionary fares in my area were half the adult single fare - the same as I paid, but in Glasgow, my Gran paid a 10p flat fare. The concessionary fare became 10p in my area (before it became free) and there was a noticeable spike in OAP numbers on the buses.

I recall one rather cold day when I'd just missed a bus from Aberdeen back home. I was first in the queue to board the next service, but there was one woman who tried to stop me from boarding before her, citing "we're pensioners and we're entitled". She wasn't too happy when I reminded her how much my fare was compared to hers and that on that basis alone, I was more entitled than she was.

I really don't want to get into generational arguments like this, but when the poor reimbursement rates for concessionary travel mean that I, as a full-fare paying passenger, have to pay more, it's understandable that there's a bit of friction.

Do we means-test concessionary travel? Part of me says yes - this doesn't have to cost anything extra. If you're in receipt of certain benefits you're automatically entitled to free this and that anyway, so entitlement to free travel has already been assessed. At the same time, there are always going to be borderline cases where some are just above the line.

It's not an easy situation to deal with, other than ensuring that those who are less well-off aren't placed in the position where they have to be borderline cases in the first place. And that's a whole can of worms that doesn't belong in this section of the forum!

 

[Ostrich]

When I qualified as an ENCTS pass holder in the West Midlands, I did use buses (in preference to a car) far more than I think I would have done without the pass. So that has to be an (albeit not huge) income for the bus companies they wouldn't have got otherwise. The rail add-on was a welcome bonus, but then I always considered that, as it was funded by the local council, it was a bit of a quid pro quo for the services I didn't use (such as education) which I paid for in my council tax.

Since relocating to North Dorset, increasingly a desert for meaningful bus services, the ENCTS pass is frankly of no use to me. Well, actually, that's a lie, I use it to claim my 10% Tuesdays only OAP discount at Iceland ....

 

[Russel]

I fully support the ENCTS scheme, I think the principle of it is excellent, however, they do seem to be given out like sweets so I think a review is needed, both the OAP and Disability parts of the scheme should be means tested.

 

[Ken H]

I fully support the ENCTS scheme, I think the principle of it is excellent, however, they do seem to be given out like sweets so I think a review is needed, both the OAP and Disability parts of the scheme should be means tested.

It's certainly daft that I have one as I am working and paid well. But then I get free eye tests and prescriptions, and pay no employers NI.
I'm not claiming state pension as if you don't claim, when you claim later the amount you get is increased by just under 5% a year.
A colleague at work is 75. He is not claiming state pension and will get a good pension when he retires soon. He is a well paid IT developer.

And those who have the pass now funded the passes of others through the taxes they paid while working......

Same as the state pension. It's a massive ponzai scheme.

The only time I feel guilty is if I'm travelling on my age-based pass with a friend who has epilepsy and is therefore disqualified from driving and has been fighting bureaucracy for ages to get a disability-based one.

Just pay for them. Swings and roundabouts.

Nowhere near. A lot of the time it's under £1 per pass though does depend on the council and the formula they use. £1 per pass isn't too bad if they are only going 2 or 3 stops but if a long distance route like Hull to York or Hull to Bridlington is full of passholders it struggles to cover fuel and wages let alone any other costs. I believe some parts of the country it is down to less than a third of the full adult fare.

I am surprised you don't have to state destination when scanning your pass. Surely bus companies should be able to claim more for longer journeys. (Or do they in some council areas)

 

[Falcon1200]

Not saying they shouldn't have the pass but, on a point of order, it is funded by current taxes not previous contributions.

And those who have the pass now funded the passes of others through the taxes they paid while working......

 

[Dai Corner]

And those who have the pass now funded the passes of others through the taxes they paid while working......

Or indeed the taxes they are still paying, particularly Council Tax.

 

[Falcon1200]

Or indeed the taxes they are still paying, particularly Council Tax.

Thanks, that's made me feel (even) less guilty when I use my bus pass !

 

[Auld reekie]

A lot of services struggle to cover costs if they are full of passholders as the bus companies get paid so little.

I would’ve thought that the bus companies were fully reimbursed for the cost of the fare.

 

[Geordie driver]

There were schemes across the country pre what exists today. Where I live pensioners have had mostly free travel all my working life. I have contributed to it and would hope something similar is in place when I retire. I also hope there is a usable service by then too.

Many pass holders cannot drive through no fault of their own. There was a time when we were expected to charge blind people! Mind, I never did.

 

[Deerfold]

I would’ve thought that the bus companies were fully reimbursed for the cost of the fare.

And, as already explained, you'd have thought wrong.

Transdev launched an express bus some years ago between Harrogate and York every 2 hours. The buses were regularly full and there were calls for it to be made more frequent, but the service was withdrawn as even full busloads of (mostly) pass holders didn't cover the costs of running the service.

 

[Dai Corner]

Thanks, that's made me feel (even) less guilty when I use my bus pass !

Many pass holders cannot drive through no fault of their own.

The only time I feel guilty is if I'm travelling on my age-based pass with a friend who has epilepsy and is therefore disqualified from driving and has been fighting bureaucracy for ages to get a disability-based one.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

And those who have the pass now funded the passes of others through the taxes they paid while working......

As time goes by yes. But in the early years of the nationwide free scheme those receiving the free pass had not paid in. What they may have paid in was for a half-fare pass or whatever was available in their local area.

 

[Eyersey468]

I would’ve thought that the bus companies were fully reimbursed for the cost of the fare.

Nowhere near. A lot of the time it's under £1 per pass though does depend on the council and the formula they use. £1 per pass isn't too bad if they are only going 2 or 3 stops but if a long distance route like Hull to York or Hull to Bridlington is full of passholders it struggles to cover fuel and wages let alone any other costs. I believe some parts of the country it is down to less than a third of the full adult fare.

For the record I am not against the free pass scheme, I do however feel that the bus companies should be paid a fair reimbursement for it and not the pittance they get, I also think the government made a mistake allowing local discretion on times as you end up with situations where one person can use their pass and someone else can't, to me either everyone should be able to use them or nobody should.

 

[Dai Corner]

Nowhere near. A lot of the time it's under £1 per pass though does depend on the council and the formula they use. £1 per pass isn't too bad if they are only going 2 or 3 stops but if a long distance route like Hull to York or Hull to Bridlington is full of passholders it struggles to cover fuel and wages let alone any other costs. I believe some parts of the country it is down to less than a third of the full adult fare.

For the record I am not against the free pass scheme, I do however feel that the bus companies should be paid a fair reimbursement for it and not the pittance they get, I also think the government made a mistake allowing local discretion on times as you end up with situations where one person can use their pass and someone else can't, to me either everyone should be able to use them or nobody should.

As we know, the reimbursement rate is supposedly set at a level such that the operator makes neither or a profit nor a loss by accepting passes. That includes accounting for journeys that wouldn't otherwise be made as well as the marginal cost of carrying the passengers and is the same monetary amount for all journeys originating within a local authority area.

This is very crude but the best that could be done with the technology and data available when the ENCTS was introduced. The introduction of tap-on tap-off has the potential to refine the system and be fairer to long-distance operators.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm an 'entitled freeloader', have been for fourteen years. During that time, apart from (mostly) annual visits to London for three or four days up to four years ago, my use of the free pass has been restricted to twenty five occasions at most, almost all of those involving hospital trips or going to pick up my car from the garage following repair/MOT. What might be called 'jaunts' I can only think of one, which involved two trips on the same open top bus, there and back. During the majority of the fourteen years I was reasonably fit, active and quite capable of travelling by bus without thinking about it, even upstairs. Now, although I walk, because I am so unsteady a voluntary ride on a bus would be extremely foolish, as a fall could mean serious injury or worse. It's a blow for someone who's loved buses all their life.

So now I observe buses in my area, from a parked or moving car and occasionally from a bench at a bus station or, more likely, a shopping street. Apart from the tourist season and out of school hours, the people I see boarding and leaving buses are mainly late middle-aged and elderly people, the majority of them women, with a smattering of young mums with kids. Some I see on a regular basis, and the idea that they are 'entitled' would be risible if it wasn't so offensive. It is the same 'thinkers' that used to tell us black people, Eastern Europeans etc etc were 'coming here, taking all our jobs/housing/women/whatever' and needs debunking, period.

 

[Eyersey468]

As we know, the reimbursement rate is supposedly set at a level such that the operator makes neither or a profit nor a loss by accepting passes. That includes accounting for journeys that wouldn't otherwise be made as well as the marginal cost of carrying the passengers and is the same monetary amount for all journeys originating within a local authority area.

This is very crude but the best that could be done with the technology and data available when the ENCTS was introduced. The introduction of tap-on tap-off has the potential to refine the system and be fairer to long-distance operators.

In my view the government tried to do it on the cheap and didn't consider how much it would cost, then when they found it cost too much their solution seemed to simply be to cut and cut what the bus operators get, but if the funding gets cut too much there will come a tipping point when swathes of services get cut because they can't pay any more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In short, no, they aren't. People cannot be criticised for claiming a benefit to which they are entitled.

However the present situation is that "boomers" and older Gen-X are doing financially far better than Millennials, Gen-Z and whatever is next. Thus, there is the need to spread the suffering round a little, which is probably better done by way of taxation* than of removing something that has a value as it stops older people (who generally have lots of time) driving, which is both a safety benefit (as older generally = poorer reactions) and a pollution one.

Also, it should be properly funded.

* I lean towards a property ownership tax, personally, as it also encourages downsizing to free up the larger housing stock for families, plus if done alongside rent control it'd clout rich landlords and free up some of those properties, too.

 

[S&CLER]

I would be very happy to pay for my pass, say £100 a year; it would still be good value for my regular journeys twice a week Southport to Ormskirk to visit a care home, plus occasional other use. Currently I'm paying £30 a week in taxi fares to travel one way, returning on a Stagecoach bus (the 315) which is not affected by the Arriva strike. My friend's wife reimburses me out of his bank account for the taxi fares as she considers it essential for him to have visitors. But the pass fee would have to be ring-fenced for public transport.

 

[Dai Corner]

In my view the government tried to do it on the cheap and didn't consider how much it would cost, then when they found it cost too much their solution seemed to simply be to cut and cut what the bus operators get, but if the funding gets cut too much there will come a tipping point when swathes of services get cut because they can't pay any more.

Also, it should be properly funded.

As I understand it, the 'make neither a profit nor a loss' rule arose from some EU law? They had no option but to include it. That, in conjunction with the assumptions made and data used in the calculation sets the reimbursement per journey. The funding required depends on the reimbursement and number of journeys made.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I understand it, the 'make neither a profit nor a loss' rule arose from some EU law? They had no option but to include it. That, in conjunction with the assumptions made and data used in the calculation sets the reimbursement per journey. The funding required depends on the reimbursement and number of journeys made.

The calculations are faulty, as they don't do that. They don't properly take into account that a higher loading means larger, more expensive vehicles (or a more frequent service) and more diesel. They also don't bill back to the cardholder's local authority, so touristy (generally poor) places get whacked.

The idea is fine, the system is faulty.

The only real way it can work is a move to regulation and tendering (or direct operation), really, unless you are just going to allocate each pensioner a specific sum of money on a card to spend on non-private-car transport as they wish, like a modern version of transport tokens. Which may not be an utterly terrible idea, as some might choose "a taxi to town once a week" over "a monthly bus pass", or may indeed not have a bus option at all.

 

[Gloster]

I suspect that those who are mostly likely to feel that they are entitled are those who only use it occasionally.

On one occasion I got on a fairly full bus around 09.00 (unusually early for me), popped my Rover on the scanner and sat down. Immediately the old boy next to me started whining to me that he’d had to pay to as it was before 09.00 and ‘It wasn’t fair’, with a suggestion that I was cheating. As telling him that I had a paid for Rover didn’t shut him up, I had to spend the rest of the journey listening this whingeing old f**t.

One thing that does get a lot of grumbling is when pass holders have to pay to catch a bus before 09.30 to get to a medical appointment. Many seem to have an attitude that that ought to be free.

 

[Dai Corner]

I suspect that those who are mostly likely to feel that they are entitled are those who only use it occasionally.

On one occasion I got on a fairly full bus around 09.00 (unusually early for me), popped my Rover on the scanner and sat down. Immediately the old boy next to me started whining to me that he’d had to pay to as it was before 09.00 and ‘It wasn’t fair’, with a suggestion that I was cheating. As telling him that I had a paid for Rover didn’t shut him up, I had to spend the rest of the journey listening this whingeing old f**t.

One thing that does get a lot of grumbling is when pass holders have to pay to catch a bus before 09.30 to get to a medical appointment. Many seem to have an attitude that that ought to be free.

We don't have that problem in Wales where passes are valid at all times.

Perhaps the grumblers should consider booking later appointments if not paying to get to them is so important?