Are customers better supported by TOC retailers or third party retailers?

[yorkie]

From another thread:

As a general rule don't use Trainline to buy tickets (several reasons but key one is they are 3rd party so any dispute on the train the train staff can blame them etc, and they will not be part of the ability to help solve the problem either I suspect) - best to use a train company ticket selling site that is the company for which you are travelling the most of the trip on I would say - in this case Cross Country site, but Norther would be the second option.

I don't agree with this; firstly I am aware of third party retailers who have provided excellent support to their customers who have been persecuted by rogue train companies.

Unless you know that people have had bad experiences from Trainline through lack of support, it seems unfair to automatically suggest the support would be poor, and even then I wouldn't tar all third party retailers with the same brush.

Do you know for sure that XC would - as a retailer - be supporting the customer?

Given how XC have treated several forum members in recent cases I am far from convinced that this would be the case. As for Northern, I strongly disagree with that recommendation, but if you have some good experiences please do give some examples and I'd be happy to hear them.

However it is a very good point that people should carefully consider which retailer to use, and choose a retailer that will offer good support in the unlikely event of a dispute whereby a relevant train company refuses to accept the ticket

Given how badly some train companies have treated their customers lately, and given that many third party retailers have representatives on this forum who we can escalate matters to, I would increasingly recommend people use trusted third party retailers.

The only exception I would add is that if a fare is clearly erroneous and anomalous and a clear and obvious error has occurred (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport via London Euston) then it would be better to book on the TOC's own website. But I'd also advise against knowing it was an error...

 

[TUC]

I do think some here have an odd loyalty to TOC ticket retailing sites, even to the point of some wanting only TOCs to be able to sell online. Surely the only things that matter are which sites offer the best value and the best service. Who owns them is irrelevant.

 

[yorkie]

I do think some here have an odd loyalty to TOC ticket retailing sites, even to the point of some wanting only TOCs to be able sell online. Surely the only things that matter are which sites offer the best value and the best service.....

In theory yes, but some train companies have been caught treating customers in an extremely shoddy manner recently. The theory goes that if you bought directly from the company, they will treat you well in the event of a dispute. But over time I have increasingly realised this is not as true as people think it is and I have seen several examples recently.

It can also be very difficult to get some train companies to actually resolve matters correctly and finding contacts is not always easy. Although the TOCs do read this forum avidly, it tends to be the case that people in the real positions of power don't have identifiable accounts on here, which is very much in contrast with many of the third party retailers. We've actually had some really good support and outcomes for numerous forum members from several third party retailers, in the face of all sorts of poor behaviour towards those passengers by TOCs.

I am not sure that many TOCs genuinely see passengers as customers, and several of them seem to have no concept of the fact that consumer and contract law does apply to railway ticketing; indeed some TOC staff actively deny these facts, which I find quite staggering.

 

[sheff1]

In theory yes, but some train companies have been caught treating customers in an extremely shoddy manner recently. The theory goes that if you bought directly from the company, they will treat you well in the event of a dispute.

I think the theory is, if a customer who is treated in a shoddy manner takes the matter further, the fact that the ticket was sold by the company whose trains were being used in accordance with the itinerary will pevent the TOC stating in court that the fault lay with a third party (not that that should matter, even if the ticket was sold by a third party).

 

[WesternLancer]

From another thread:

I don't agree with this; firstly I am aware of third party retailers who have provided excellent support to their customers who have been persecuted by rogue train companies.

Unless you know that people have had bad experiences from Trainline through lack of support, it seems unfair to automatically suggest the support would be poor, and even then I wouldn't tar all third party retailers with the same brush.

Do you know for sure that XC would - as a retailer - be supporting the customer?

Given how XC have treated several forum members in recent cases I am far from convinced that this would be the case. As for Northern, I strongly disagree with that recommendation, but if you have some good experiences please do give some examples and I'd be happy to hear them.

However it is a very good point that people should carefully consider which retailer to use, and choose a retailer that will offer good support in the unlikely event of a dispute whereby a relevant train company refuses to accept the ticket

Given how badly some train companies have treated their customers lately, and given that many third party retailers have representatives on this forum who we can escalate matters to, I would increasingly recommend people use trusted third party retailers.

The only exception I would add is that if a fare is clearly erroneous and anomalous and a clear and obvious error has occurred (e.g. Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport via London Euston) then it would be better to book on the TOC's own website. But I'd also advise against knowing it was an error...

Thanks Yorkie - these are very fair observations on my post.

I guess where I was coming from is that large numbers of travelers do not use some of the better 3rd party retailers - they use Trainline (I'm not saying trainline is esp bad, I just say don't use it) - trainline have a market dominant position in my view, so lots of people use it (but I'm not saying their position is anti competitive, which is a different point).

For general passengers who just expect to buy a ticket and get on (ie not someone who takes much interest in fares processes, ticketing etc - prob like the OP on the thread concerned who had joined the forum to get some advice) the risk is that they are on a train - and I've actually heard this from staff on trains talking to other passengers- and problem goes like this:

- staff to passenger: 'your ticket does not appear to be valid'
- passenger response: but I've bought this ticket to travel today etc
- where did you buy ticket?
- I bought it on line on The Trainline
- staff to passenger: 'sorry, they are nothing to do with us you will have to go and take it up with them, but I'm afraid you need to pay for a new ticket now'
etc etc

Now my point is if you were on an XC train, and it was XC staff who disputed the ticket - that sort of conversation is far less likely in my view (of course you could still have a wrong / invalid ticket etc).

So for the 'average' passenger, who just wants a ticket, does not want to get into a dispute, or a distressing situation on board the train - as happened to the OP's daughter in that thread - I reckon that people are generally better off buying from a TOC site, and one that operates the train they are using.

But that of course does not mean there are not better 3rd party retailers to use of course. I suspect they have a small market share, but again they are probably still better than some, maybe all, TOC sites.

Thanks for picking up on my comment however and moving it to a general thread - v helpful in terms of hearing other's thoughts.

 

[ashkeba]

Don't most of the TOCs rent their online ticketing from third party retailers anyway?

I had problems using XC special offer print at home tickets sold by XC but it was many years ago. They disputed it, said web sales were another department and I'd need to buy another and complain to get the lower ticket price refunded, I suggested asking the train manager to come review things and they backed down. Unsurprisingly, once I had problems, I didn't buy from XC again. I'd rather pay more than be made an on-train crippled cabaret act again, but I bet xC are happy of whatever extra money they've had from me as a result!

 

[robbeech]

In many cases (usually when it suits them) the Retail side of a TOC and an operator side of a TOC are completely separate in terms of how they interact with customers. I'm trying to find the email forwarded to me from a colleague who had a standard "picked out a hat" rejection from Northern as he "didn't travel" (he did) where Northern (TOC) rejected the claim and referred him to Northern (Retailer) as it was their issue, and Northern (Retailer) rejected a refund claim and referred them to Northern (TOC) to sort out a delay repay claim. The whole saga went on about 7 months and he finally got a Gesture of Goodwill from Northern (TOC) as even though he didn't travel (he did) it was clear that they couldn't come to a better conclusion. Coincidentally, this decision was made when he mentioned legal action.
Makes you wonder what their homes are like doesn't it.

 

[ashkeba]

[...] Northern (TOC) rejected the claim and referred him to Northern (Retailer) as it was their issue, and Northern (Retailer) rejected a refund claim and referred them to Northern (TOC) [...] Makes you wonder what their homes are like doesn't it.

Divided against themselves and cannot stand!

 

[alistairlees]

I've actually heard this from staff on trains talking to other passengers- and problem goes like this:

- staff to passenger: 'your ticket does not appear to be valid'
- passenger response: but I've bought this ticket to travel today etc
- where did you buy ticket?
- I bought it on line on The Trainline
- staff to passenger: 'sorry, they are nothing to do with us you will have to go and take it up with them, but I'm afraid you need to pay for a new ticket now'
etc etc

Now my point is if you were on an XC train, and it was XC staff who disputed the ticket - that sort of conversation is far less likely in my view (of course you could still have a wrong / invalid ticket etc).

So for the 'average' passenger, who just wants a ticket, does not want to get into a dispute, or a distressing situation on board the train - as happened to the OP's daughter in that thread - I reckon that people are generally better off buying from a TOC site.

That’s clearly anti-competitive against third party retailers though. It really should not be happening.

 

[island]

I am not sure how that can be classed as anti-competitive in the legal sense.

 

[ashkeba]

I am not sure how that can be classed as anti-competitive in the legal sense.

I think it resembles preferential treatment of one retailer and a dominant provider harming the structure of the market. I think there was some ruling against Google giving preferential treatment to its shopping comparison service which would translates to a train operator preferring tickets sold by itself.

 

[TUC]

I was at Bradford Forster Square one day last year and multiple passengers were arriving to collect tickets bought on Red Spotted Hanky. However, RSH had a fault preventing tickets from being collected. The gateline staff, quite shamefully, were telling all the passengers they would need to buy new tickets and reclaim their loss from RSH, even though they knew there was a fault and the passengers had email proof of purchase. Worse, they were telling passengers they would be better off buying from Northern. Looking back, I really wish I'd walked up and challenged them on both treating customers badly and breaking impartial retailer rules.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Now my point is if you were on an XC train, and it was XC staff who disputed the ticket - that sort of conversation is far less likely in my view (of course you could still have a wrong / invalid ticket etc).

Train staff will say whatever they want in situations like that, having bought the ticket from XC won't make an XC train guard do their job properly.

In theory buying from the TOC directly should prevent a spitting contest between the TOC and retailer. But in reality it doesn't work like that, given how the TOCs silo their different departments.