Are station heating costs significant?

[ChewChewTrain]

On a cold day, it’s always a relief to get into a deep-level Underground station and wait in the warm on the platform.

However, I do wonder how expensive it is to keep all that air heated, particularly where the ceiling is high (e.g. Clapham Common with its retro-cool hanging radiators).

Is this something that could ever be cruelly snatched away from us for that reason? It would surprise me if there were any obligation on them to retain it, given that most platforms even in London are not only unheated but outdoor. And I would think that while passengers (including me!) would grumble about the change, it wouldn’t be catastrophic enough to cause them to change their travelling habits.

So, while I really wouldn’t like it, I struggle to think of reasons why it wouldn’t make sense to TfL. I’d be grateful to anyone who can!

 

[Dstock7080]

No London Underground station platforms are heated. It is a natural thing from friction, passenger heat, traction motors, air compressors; which gets trapped within the station.

Ways have been sought to use this excess heat:

World-first scheme is launched using waste heat from the Tube to warm homes, two leisure centres and a school in Islington | Islington Council News

Waste heat from the London Underground network is now capable of providing heating and hot water to more than 1,350 homes, a school and two leisure centres in Islington thanks to a pioneering energy centre that opened today.

www.islington.media

Waste heat from the London Underground network is now capable of providing heating and hot water to more than 1,350 homes, a school and two leisure centres in Islington thanks to a pioneering energy centre that opened today.
The revolutionary Bunhill 2 Energy Centre – the first of its kind in the world – provides a blueprint for decarbonising heat in potential future schemes in London and around the world, reducing heating bills and carbon emissions while improving air quality and making cities more self-sufficient in energy.

 

[stuu]

Is this something that could ever be cruelly snatched away from us for that reason? It would surprise me if there were any obligation on them to retain it, given that most platforms even in London are not only unheated but outdoor. And I would think that while passengers (including me!) would grumble about the change, it wouldn’t be catastrophic enough to cause them to change their travelling habits.

So, while I really wouldn’t like it, I struggle to think of reasons why it wouldn’t make sense to TfL. I’d be grateful to anyone who can

Depending on how the building was built, the heating will play a part in keeping the damp out and stopping it falling down. As well as the staff welfare, if there are any

 

[lookapigeon]

I noticed a heater in the waiting room in Hounslow East that looked like it was a relic from the 80s, all wood effect but still kicking out heat.

I guess they built them to last and so don't replace them for decates, but surely modern heaters would have better efficiency?

Do TFL buy electrcity from the grid or do they just generate it themselves?

 

[BRX]

All electric heaters have the same efficiency.

 

[matt_world2004]

Most stations are heated naturally by the train in the passenger areas , they don't want artificial heat in the passenger areas because it attracts the homeless. :/ same with tfl husband stations

 

[Ken H]

I noticed a heater in the waiting room in Hounslow East that looked like it was a relic from the 80s, all wood effect but still kicking out heat.

I guess they built them to last and so don't replace them for decates, but surely modern heaters would have better efficiency?

Do TFL buy electrcity from the grid or do they just generate it themselves?

LT used to generate their own leccy at Neasden, Greenwich and Lots Road, Chelsea. But even in the 70's they had to top up from the grid. The power stations when built also powered the trams and trolleybuses.
Lots Rd closed in 2002
Greenwich is the back up generator in case the grid fails, to allow the evacuation of the underground safely.
Neasden was built by the Metropolitan Railway. it was closed 1968.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All electric heaters have the same efficiency.

In a simple sense (proportion of electrical energy converted to heat being close to 100%) yes, however you do get in some stations infrared heaters which heat the person not the air, and thus require less heat energy to attain basic comfort. MKC has these for one.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

No London Underground station platforms are heated. It is a natural thing from friction, passenger heat, traction motors, air compressors; which gets trapped within the station.

Ways have been sought to use this excess heat:

World-first scheme is launched using waste heat from the Tube to warm homes, two leisure centres and a school in Islington | Islington Council News

Waste heat from the London Underground network is now capable of providing heating and hot water to more than 1,350 homes, a school and two leisure centres in Islington thanks to a pioneering energy centre that opened today.

www.islington.media

Interesting, but are there definitely no exceptions to this? As I went down the final flight of steps onto the Clapham Common platform recently, there was a noticeable (and very welcome) increase in heat as I did so, which I wouldn’t expect had it been natural.

I deduced (possibly wrongly) that the heat was coming from the “cylinders” hanging down from the ceiling, which you can see in the pictures here. They are in the pictures from Clapham North as well, most clearly in the first one, between the lights. If they’re not radiators then I’d be curious as to what they are…

 

[Mojo]

they don't want artificial heat in the passenger areas because it attracts the homeless. :/

I’m not sure that is correct because almost every station that has a proper sealed waiting room has heaters in them.

As to the OP, I’m trying to work out if this thread is a joke or not. Below ground stations don’t have heaters on the platforms. Can’t think of anything in the public areas at Clapham Common that could be assumed to look like a radiator!

 

[Dai Corner]

I thought the problem was cooling rather than heating, especially in the tube sections in warmer weather. The small mobile heaters (people) and large ones (trains) producing far more than can be dissipated naturally by convection and air conditioning being prohibitively expensive.

 

[Mojo]

I deduced (possibly wrongly) that the heat was coming from the “cylinders” hanging down from the ceiling, which you can see in the pictures here. They are in the pictures from Clapham North as well, most clearly in the first one, between the lights. If they’re not radiators then I’d be curious as to what they are…

They are speakers for the public address system.

 

[BRX]

In a simple sense (proportion of electrical energy converted to heat being close to 100%) yes, however you do get in some stations infrared heaters which heat the person not the air, and thus require less heat energy to attain basic comfort. MKC has these for one.

It's hard to compare them like for like though, because "basic comfort" is a bit subjective. Personally I tend to prefer a room with evenly warm air, over being blasted with IR heat in an otherwise cold space.

Of course, IR can make sense in spaces where doors are frequently open and the air is constantly being exchanged with outside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's hard to compare them like for like though, because "basic comfort" is a bit subjective. Personally I tend to prefer a room with evenly warm air, over being blasted with IR heat in an otherwise cold space.

I'm sure everyone will, but railway station heating is generally designed to ensure safety and efficiency rather than home or pub-like comfort. You tend to find these IR heaters are used in buildings which are poorly insulated and expensive or impractical to insulate, e.g. glass waiting rooms that might as well be outdoors. The other upside they have is that you don't lose all the heat every time someone opens a door.

I'd not fit them in my house, but they're ideal for the purpose they serve on the railway.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

They are speakers for the public address system.

Thank you. I can assure you this thread isn’t a joke, and (having moderated myself elsewhere) I wouldn’t make extra work for you volunteers in that way.

All I can say is that in the winter, the heat is very welcome and, if natural, is a happy accident indeed.

 

[Meerkat]

Unfortunately I can't remember the numbers (or even where I read it) but I was quite shocked to find out that tube stations were originally quite cool (like basements etc) but the heat generated by the trains has dramatically increased the earth temperature surrounding the tunnels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately I can't remember the numbers (or even where I read it) but I was quite shocked to find out that tube stations were originally quite cool (like basements etc) but the heat generated by the trains has dramatically increased the earth temperature surrounding the tunnels.

Interestingly Merseyrail stations are cool all year round, but I always put that down to the much higher water table (there's a lot of water about in Merseyrail tunnels, and it's caused rusting issues with both rails and trains before) and the different types of soil involved.

 

[Meerkat]

Interestingly Merseyrail stations are cool all year round, but I always put that down to the much higher water table (there's a lot of water about in Merseyrail tunnels, and it's caused rusting issues with both rails and trains before) and the different types of soil involved.

The tunnels must be bigger though, and far less intensively used (and some of it is much younger than the old bits of the tube.....he types trying to remember whether the Jubilee gets as hot as the old ones....)

 

[Dstock7080]

London clay absorbs heat from tunnels over time, hence why the Victoria Line was cool when first opened.
The geology of Liverpool may differ.

 

[The Lad]

There is plenty of water in the Liverpool tunnels which will carry away the heat as it is pumped out.

 

[stuu]

Interestingly Merseyrail stations are cool all year round, but I always put that down to the much higher water table (there's a lot of water about in Merseyrail tunnels, and it's caused rusting issues with both rails and trains before) and the different types of soil involved.

Didn't extra pumping equipment have to be put in, because various factories that used to pump water out of the aquifer closed down?

 

[bramling]

Interesting, but are there definitely no exceptions to this? As I went down the final flight of steps onto the Clapham Common platform recently, there was a noticeable (and very welcome) increase in heat as I did so, which I wouldn’t expect had it been natural.

I deduced (possibly wrongly) that the heat was coming from the “cylinders” hanging down from the ceiling, which you can see in the pictures here. They are in the pictures from Clapham North as well, most clearly in the first one, between the lights. If they’re not radiators then I’d be curious as to what they are…

Definitely no heating. The heat you will have felt is because the tunnel temperatures on the deep Tube lines tend to be quite high, even in winter.

There’s various theories as to why this is, but the generally accepted reason is simply the amount of electrical equipment down there which releases heat - not least from the trains themselves, which these tunnels seem to trap. There is comparatively little ventilation, especially on the older lines, hence why areas like the newer Jubilee Line tend to be a little less hot.

The Victoria Line was always like a furnace when the 67 stock ran due to the rheostatic braking dumping huge amounts of heat directly into the tunnels, the new trains don’t contribute as much heat plus the ventilation system was uprated at the same time as the new trains weee brought in.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Definitely no heating. The heat you will have felt is because the tunnel temperatures on the deep Tube lines tend to be quite high, even in winter.

There’s various theories as to why this is, but the generally accepted reason is simply the amount of electrical equipment down there which releases heat - not least from the trains themselves, which these tunnels seem to trap. There is comparatively little ventilation, especially on the older lines, hence why areas like the newer Jubilee Line tend to be a little less hot.

The Victoria Line was always like a furnace when the 67 stock ran due to the rheostatic braking dumping huge amounts of heat directly into the tunnels, the new trains don’t contribute as much heat plus the ventilation system was uprated at the same time as the new trains weee brought in.

Thanks; very interesting. One thing I like about this place is that even when someone starts an idiotic thread, the well-informed responses still make reading it worthwhile.

 

[BRX]

Even without all the things in tube tunnels that heat them up ... in general, in the winter, ground temperature increases the deeper down you go, and also the deeper you go the less the temperature varies through the year. So at the sort of depth that tube tunnels are at, the ground might be around 15 degrees. That sort of temperature feels quite cool, relative to surface air temperatures, on a hot summer day and fairly warm, relative to surface air temperatures, on a cold winter day.

This graph illustrates how different things are even at a depth of 4m, compared to the surface. Of course tube lines are generally quite a bit deeper than 4m.




A similar effect means that large buildings with ground floors that are laid directly onto the ground (that is, not suspended with air circulating under them) don't lose much heat into the ground, even if there's no floor insulation. The ground immediately under the building is not usually a lot colder than the internal temperature of the building, (and over time tends towards equalising with it) so the heat flow into the ground is fairly minimal. What can mess this up is if there's a significant amount of groundwater flowing through the ground under the building - which is one of the means that have been investigated for cooloing tube tunnels.

 

[notverydeep]

Definitely no heating. The heat you will have felt is because the tunnel temperatures on the deep Tube lines tend to be quite high, even in winter.

There’s various theories as to why this is, but the generally accepted reason is simply the amount of electrical equipment down there which releases heat - not least from the trains themselves, which these tunnels seem to trap. There is comparatively little ventilation, especially on the older lines, hence why areas like the newer Jubilee Line tend to be a little less hot.

The Victoria Line was always like a furnace when the 67 stock ran due to the rheostatic braking dumping huge amounts of heat directly into the tunnels, the new trains don’t contribute as much heat plus the ventilation system was uprated at the same time as the new trains weee brought in.

Indeed, the Victoria line tunnels are so effective at retaining heat that the 2009 stock trains are not fitted with any kind of internal heating. This doesn’t stop passengers asking for it to be turned off in the summer. But there is nothing to turn off!

This can make early trains from Seven Sisters a bit chilly on winter mornings…

 

[EnriqueEspaña]

Amersham waiting room on the island platform throws out a lot of heat from the electric heaters. Certainly warmer than whenever I put my central heating on in the winter - feels like someone has set it to 25 degrees or put in on max.

 

[whoosh]

As an aside, I believe the negative 4th rail on London Underground is to prevent corrosion of the metal tunnel segments. Obviously, this isn't the system used in Liverpool.

 

[bramling]

As an aside, I believe the negative 4th rail on London Underground is to prevent corrosion of the metal tunnel segments. Obviously, this isn't the system used in Liverpool.

Indeed, and look at the issues this has caused with stray currents at various times on the Loop in particular.

 

[Dstock7080]

As an aside, I believe the negative 4th rail on London Underground is to prevent corrosion of the metal tunnel segments. Obviously, this isn't the system used in Liverpool.

The CLR Central London Railway used a centre positive rail system until 1940.

It also separated the evolving complicated signalling circuits from the return traction current.