Are the Euston - Blackpool (via Birmingham) services useless?

[Agent_Squash]

Having done a long trip to Swansea over the last few days, I've ended up using the Euston - Birmingham - Scotland/Blackpool services. The one thing that struck me was how it appeared the entire 11 coach Pendolino came into Preston empty on the way down, and likewise emptied out at Preston on the return.

These Blackpool services are here to stay - but it doesn't seem like that many people actually use them, certainly not as many who used the Glasgow service prior to COVID. It makes Birmingham trips a lot more inconvenient for the rest of the north WCML, removes 1tph Preston - Lancaster (which is actually very well used at this point), and doesn't actually seem to serve a commercial purpose.

I do think there needs to be services to Blackpool - it was about time it was added to the WCML network proper - but destroying connectivity isn't the way in my opinion.

 

[JonathanH]

Blackpool is just a convenient place to send the trains to layover rather than blocking a platform at Preston.

removes 1tph Preston - Lancaster

Still 3tph most hours which should be sufficient, although the service is a bit bunched.

I do think there needs to be services to Blackpool - it was about time it was added to the WCML network proper - but destroying connectivity isn't the way in my opinion.

The trains would be just as empty if they came direct from London. The market for Blackpool comes primarily from the North West, not London and the Midlands. That is why Northern run a half hourly service to Manchester with (mainly) double 331s.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Blackpool is just a convenient place to send the trains to layover rather than blocking a platform at Preston.

This was a convenient excuse for Avanti in COVID indeed - but it's concerning to hear that there's no long term plan to extend the services back up the WCML as previously.

Still 3tph most hours which should be sufficient, although the service is a bit bunched.

Bunched it is - departures at xx41, xx45, xx53 and xx05 give a near turn up and go service for a few minutes before a long wait. Fortunately Preston has some decent facilities at least - and there are timetable needs (such as the Airport - Cumbria should connect with the fast Euston and so on)

The trains would be just as empty if they came direct from London. The market for Blackpool comes primarily from the North West, not London and the Midlands. That is why Northern run a half hourly service to Manchester with (mainly) double 331s.

If they hadn't extended Blackpool to fit 11 coach Pendolino's, would agree that it isn't worth it. But equally, there's the argument that it could be worth a shot providing a good 1tph (via Brum or the Trent Valley) to grow demand...

 

[Scotrail314209]

Definitely concerned (as a Scottish resident) that there isn't a plan for them to send these services back up to Glasgow.

Granted usually a same platform interchange can be done at Carlisle or Preston, that's hassle for people with families or lots of luggage.

The same can be said with going over to Edinburgh to connect with CrossCountry services.

I believe Avanti have one train every Saturday going southbound from Glasgow to Birmingham at 18:40, which replaces the Euston which runs in the path on a Monday - Friday.

Throughout the week 9S97 (17:43 ex Euston) runs through to Glasgow, with 9S85 replacing it on a Saturday (15:43 ex Euston).

Altogether, it's absolutely useless for connectivity, and it'd be better just to send them back to Glasgow as they used to.

Were the pre-covid Blackpool services even that well used?

 

[Peter Lanky]

My local station is Wigan NW and though I would personally never go to neither Blackpool nor London, the service is quite useful. A lot of people do go to Blackpool from Lancashire and Cheshire, and a pendolino offers a much more comfortable option than Northern. Also I have used the service for trains to Coventry and Birmingham, and may use it for more intermediate stations in the future.

I could see it being far more useful if after Birmingham, it could go to somewhere else other than London, but I'm not familiar with the electrification position to suggest where. It would be nice to have some decent services south that don't go to London for a change.

 

[py_megapixel]

They might be more useful if their timings were less stupid. Why follow almost immediately behind the other hourly service to Crewe from Birmingham, only to sit in Wolverhampton for 10 minutes?

 

[Agent_Squash]

My local station is Wigan NW and though I would personally never go to neither Blackpool nor London, the service is quite useful. A lot of people do go to Blackpool from Lancashire and Cheshire, and a pendolino offers a much more comfortable option than Northern. Also I have used the service for trains to Coventry and Birmingham, and may use it for more intermediate stations in the future.

The Northern 331s are hardly the blast from the 80s they used to be. Reducing connectivity for the entire WCML north of Preston, in my opinion, isn’t worth it so some people can use a Pendolino instead.

In an ideal world - it would be timed as a cross platform interchange. The Pendolino would come into 4, and passengers could cross onto the Northern at 3. A change required for some - but masses more connectivity bought back.

 

[The Planner]

They might be more useful if their timings were less stupid. Why follow almost immediately behind the other hourly service to Crewe from Birmingham, only to sit in Wolverhampton for 10 minutes?

Are you on about the southbound ones? Thats due to combining of the old Scotland New St path with a Wolves Euston path. Without messing with the entire journey or having it sat at New St for ages then its the best solution.

 

[py_megapixel]

Are you on about the southbound ones? Thats due to combining of the old Scotland New St path with a Wolves Euston path. Without messing with the entire journey or having it sat at New St for ages then its the best solution.

Is there no scope for the 10 min layover to be in Crewe instead of Wolverhampton? That would at least make the spacing of the Crewe-Birmingham services a bit less insane, and facilitate Birmingham-bound connections from the Northern stopper that arrives a few minutes earlier.

 

[p.d87]

Is there no scope for the 10 min layover to be in Crewe instead of Wolverhampton? That would at least make the spacing of the Crewe-Birmingham services a bit less insane, and facilitate Birmingham-bound connections from the Northern stopper that arrives a few minutes earlier.

You then lose the connection into the south coast XC. That generates quite a lot of passengers

 

[jfollows]

Is there no scope for the 10 min layover to be in Crewe instead of Wolverhampton? That would at least make the spacing of the Crewe-Birmingham services a bit less insane, and facilitate Birmingham-bound connections from the Northern stopper that arrives a few minutes earlier.

Crewe doesn't have enough platforms in the right places as it is, and if you extended the stay as you propose in the up direction it'd get in the way of the xx.40 Euston-Manchester via Wilmslow which already tends to get held up at Crewe because of conflicting moves or lack of platforms, so I don't think it'd work on the current timetable simply.
EDIT That's not to say that it couldn't be done with a bit more shuffling around, of course. I think the reason for the extended stay at Wolverhampton is that the platform used to be occupied for an extended period by a Wolverhampton terminator in the timetable it replaced, so it was relatively easy to implement.

 

[Peter Lanky]

The Northern 331s are hardly the blast from the 80s they used to be. Reducing connectivity for the entire WCML north of Preston, in my opinion, isn’t worth it so some people can use a Pendolino instead.

In an ideal world - it would be timed as a cross platform interchange. The Pendolino would come into 4, and passengers could cross onto the Northern at 3. A change required for some - but masses more connectivity bought back.

I would agree with the connectivity bit, but connectivity has never been something the railways have done very well from my experience, especially involving 2 different companies. I say this remembering my train pulling into Carlisle regular as I watched the train I knew I could never catch, leaving for Newcastle 3 minutes earlier, and having to kill 57 minutes at Carlisle.

I'd like to see more emphasis on looking at connectivity and supply for the whole network, and at the same time stop placing London at the centre of the universe for everything. I would love to see better services to the north East and East Anglia for instance, but I know it's never going to change.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I think the reason for the extended stay at Wolverhampton is that the platform used to be occupied for an extended period by a Wolverhampton terminator in the timetable it replaced, so it was relatively easy to implement.

I'm quite sure the reason for the extended dwell time at Wolverhampton is so the train then uses the path of the original xx45 Wolverhampton to London Euston- which used to be a separate service a while ago when Scotland to Birmingham services were "self contained" and purely shuttled between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Birmingham and back all day.

 

[Scotrail314209]

I'm quite sure the reason for the extended dwell time at Wolverhampton is so the train then uses the path of the original xx45 Wolverhampton to London Euston- which used to be a separate service a while ago when Scotland to Birmingham services were "self contained" and purely shuttled between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Birmingham and back all day.

Weren't those also exclusively Voyager services too?

 

[Doveymain158]

XC should have nevee been truncated to only Scottish services via ECML. Crewe is only only served 2 hourly for most of the day North of Preston. Anyone travelling from South/Mid Wales tend to be routed via Man Picc and the transfer to those crap Plat 13/14. Which is not suitable.

 

[JonathanH]

XC should have nevee been truncated to only Scottish services via ECML. Crewe is only only served 2 hourly for most of the day North of Preston. Anyone travelling from South/Mid Wales tend to be routed via Man Picc and the transfer to those crap Plat 13/14. Which is not suitable.

Even under XC, half the service to Scotland on the West Coast went via Manchester. The WCML service to Scotland up to March 2020 with many services formed of Pendolinos was much better than if it had remained with XC. However, there does need to be a realistic assessment of what service is needed north of Preston and, at the moment, it has been decided that 3tph isn't needed and can't be resourced.

 

[Peter0124]

If there really is no scope to send these sets to Glasgow anymore then why not send them to Lancaster or even Edinburgh? Not that I'd want to lose a direct service being from Glasgow myself but its better than them using Blackpool.

Said it before and will say it again, if these services won't return to Glasgow then please reintroduce a Crewe stop on the Euston-Glasgow fasts. With the LM Liverpool to Birmingham service following behind that'll provide the interchange for stations on the West Midlands network (found it to be cheaper than taking the Euston via BHM service anyway when I last took it). Crewe is literally an interchange station so to disconnect Glasgow from it would be horrible.

 

[Watershed]

However, there does need to be a realistic assessment of what service is needed north of Preston and, at the moment, it has been decided that 3tph isn't needed and can't be resourced.

It's certainly needed, it's just a question of prioritisation and Avanti being less 'adventurous' with the timetable they're advertising (and even then, they have an alarmingly high rate of cancellations). The resources would be available if it were sufficiently important to the DfT (i.e. if they were willing to put their money where their mouth is).

I think the current service structure would be much more palatable if the northbound order of the Avanti services were to be swapped between Stafford and Preston.

That would mean there would be an hourly connection, either by a direct train or a quick change, from MK, Coventry, Birmingham, Wolves and Crewe to Edinburgh and Glasgow. As it stands, the connection is fine in the southbound direction but 50-odd minutes in the northbound direction.

 

[davehsug]

They could route it through Stoke to Crewe? This would give a convenient same platform change for travellers from Derby/Nottingham, and there is still a good market for Blackpool in North Staffordshire (including me!).

 

[voyagerdude220]

Weren't those also exclusively Voyager services too?

Yep. All 5-car Super Voyagers IIRC. There may have been the occasional one booked for a double set but I'm certain the majority were just single sets.

For example I remember one diagram used to be (1x221):
06:16 Preston to Birmingham N Street (arrive 07:55)
08:20 Birmingham to Edinburgh (arrive 12:22)
12:52 Edinburgh to Birmingham (arrive 16:55)
17:20 Birmingham to Glasgow Central (arrive 21:15 ish)

 

[Some guy]

If there really is no scope to send these sets to Glasgow anymore then why not send them to Lancaster or even Edinburgh? Not that I'd want to lose a direct service being from Glasgow myself but its better than them using Blackpool.

Said it before and will say it again, if these services won't return to Glasgow then please reintroduce a Crewe stop on the Euston-Glasgow fasts. With the LM Liverpool to Birmingham service following behind that'll provide the interchange for stations

It can’t serve Crewe due to pathing reasons that’s why during Covid it departed Euston in the chester/Holyhead path so it could serve there. It meant the train had to waste 10 minutes sat in Warrington

 

[Fleetwoodflyer]

My local station is Wigan NW and though I would personally never go to neither Blackpool nor London, the service is quite useful. A lot of people do go to Blackpool from Lancashire and Cheshire, and a pendolino offers a much more comfortable option than Northern. Also I have used the service for trains to Coventry and Birmingham, and may use it for more intermediate stations in the future.

I could see it being far more useful if after Birmingham, it could go to somewhere else other than London, but I'm not familiar with the electrification position to suggest where. It would be nice to have some decent services south that don't go to London for a change.

On Friday I joined a queue of 50+ people for the 0947 from Blackpool North which must surely make it worthwhile to operate. I agree this is not necessarily typical but there are obviously passengers from Cheshire and the Midlands who do use these trains, as you have said.

 

[Agent_Squash]

On Friday I joined a queue of 50+ people for the 0947 from Blackpool North which must surely make it worthwhile to operate. I agree this is not necessarily typical but there are obviously passengers from Cheshire and the Midlands who do use these trains, as you have said.

There’s far more than 50 people using the train at Glasgow, Carlisle, Penrith/Oxenholme and Lancaster. Blackpool would be much better served with good connections from the fast Euston, similar to the Barrow/Windermere.

 

[Peter0124]

It can’t serve Crewe due to pathing reasons that’s why during Covid it departed Euston in the chester/Holyhead path so it could serve there. It meant the train had to waste 10 minutes sat in Warrington

Hopefully they could rewrite its path and have it depart Glasgow/Euston slightly earlier to compensate

 

[The Planner]

Hopefully they could rewrite its path and have it depart Glasgow/Euston slightly earlier to compensate

No, not when Dec 22 has re-written the WCML to a large extent.

 

[Huntergreed]

No, not when Dec 22 has re-written the WCML to a large extent.

Is the Dec 22 WCML recast drafted yet (and if so, do these services return?)

 

[Watershed]

Is the Dec 22 WCML recast drafted yet (and if so, do these services return?)

It's nearly ready to be offered back to operators (who will then make any final changes/objections before it's published).

There are reserved paths for the Glasgow services, but they will not be running in Dec 22.

 

[Scotrail314209]

There are reserved paths for the Glasgow services, but they will not be running in Dec 22.

Oh for goodness sake. It will be December 2089 at this rate.

 

[Some guy]

It's nearly ready to be offered back to operators (who will then make any final changes/objections before it's published).

There are reserved paths for the Glasgow services, but they will not be running in Dec 22.

It’s a disgrace they aren’t returning especially now rail travel is 90% of pre Covid is rising day by day

 

[Peter0124]

No, not when Dec 22 has re-written the WCML to a large extent.

Is there some other way of bringing back the Crewe stop on the Glasgow fast services if the via Birmingham's don't return?