Are there enough spare 755s to run Norwich to Nottingham?

[JonathanH]

Greater Anglia have 24 4-car and 14 3-car 755s, some of which were meant to be for a through service from London Liverpool Street to Lowestoft that now doesn't appear to be happening and maybe an increase in the service from Ipswich to Peterborough.

I have counted up a peak weekday requirement on the existing services for about 26 units, noting that some only work part of the day and swap with other units at Crown Point.

If these are spare and Greater Anglia need to offset lease costs, could the spare 755s be redistributed to East Midlands Railway to run Norwich to Nottingham?

It looks like seven units would be needed for an hourly service Norwich to Nottingham. 33 (or 34) from 38 units seems eminently achievable even for a diesel fleet.

This might allow EMR to avoid needing to obtain the Southern 171s for a while.

My current estimate of weekday diagrams for 755s

Twelve units start at Norwich Crown Point

5J61 0420 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Lowestoft
2A04 0525 Lowestoft to Harwich International
2W06 0750 Harwich International to Cambridge
2W11 0947 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W12 1120 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W17 1247 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W18 1420 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W23 1547 Cambridge to Ipswich
2D88 1717 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J89 1848 Lowestoft to Norwich
2P38 1940 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P39 2017 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
1K95 2115 Norwich to Cambridge
5K95 2244 Cambridge to Cambridge Sidings North

5J61 0420 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Lowestoft
2J61 0542 Lowestoft to Norwich
1K59 0633 Norwich to Cambridge
2K60 0819 Cambridge to Norwich
1K71 1033 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K72 1248 Stansted Airport to Norwich
1K83 1527 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K82 1755 Stansted Airport to Norwich
5P37 2016 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5C00 0430 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2C00 0506 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P01 0543 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P06 0652 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P07 0732 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P10 0809 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P11 0847 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
1K67 0927 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K70 1148 Stansted Airport to Norwich
1K81 1427 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K80 1648 Stansted Airport to Norwich
1K93 1927 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K96 2210 Stansted Airport to Norwich
5S35 0047 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5S04 0440 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2S04 0510 Norwich to Sheringham
2S03 0631 Sheringham to Norwich
2C08 0736 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P09 0817 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2J68 0855 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D77 1007 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2D78 1217 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J79 1348 Lowestoft to Norwich
2P24 1440 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2C23 1517 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P28 1640 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P29 1717 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P34 1804 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2C35 1847 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P40 2040 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P41 2117 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2J94 2205 Norwich to Lowestoft
5J94 2300 Lowestoft to Norwich
5J97 2349 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5S04 0440 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
5S01 0457 Norwich to Cromer
2S01 0553 Cromer to Norwich
2J64 0645 Norwich to Lowestoft
2J65 0733 Lowestoft to Norwich
5D75 0825 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D75 0907 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2D76 1117 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2D83 1307 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2D84 1517 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J85 1648 Lowestoft to Norwich
2J86 1750 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D95 1907 Lowestoft to Ipswich
5D95 2045 Ipswich to Ipswich Down And Up Goods
5D96 2102 Ipswich Down And Up Goods to Ipswich
2D96 2117 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J97 2248 Lowestoft to Norwich
5J97 2349 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5D69 0455 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Lowestoft
2D69 0614 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2D69 0614 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2E72 0803 Ipswich to Peterborough
2L73 0950 Peterborough to Ipswich
2E76 1201 Ipswich to Peterborough
2L77 1350 Peterborough to Ipswich
5L77 1530 Ipswich to Ipswich Down And Up Goods
5D86 1545 Ipswich Down And Up Goods to Ipswich
2D86 1554 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J87 1748 Lowestoft to Norwich
2P36 1840 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P37 1917 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
5P37 2016 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5J60 0510 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2J60 0536 Norwich to Lowestoft
2J63 0635 Lowestoft to Norwich
1K61 0734 Norwich to Cambridge
1K62 0912 Cambridge to Norwich
1K73 1127 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K74 1348 Stansted Airport to Norwich
2K85 1627 Norwich to Cambridge
5K85 1753 Cambridge to Cambridge Sidings North
5K92 2057 Cambridge Sidings North to Cambridge
1K92 2120 Cambridge to Norwich
2S36 2245 Norwich to Sheringham
2S35 2347 Sheringham to Norwich
5S35 0047 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5P04 0544 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2P04 0611 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P05 0658 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2J66 0755 Norwich to Lowestoft
2J69 0850 Lowestoft to Norwich
2S12 0945 Norwich to Sheringham
2S11 1047 Sheringham to Norwich
2S16 1145 Norwich to Sheringham
2S15 1247 Sheringham to Norwich
2S20 1345 Norwich to Sheringham
2S19 1447 Sheringham to Norwich
2S24 1545 Norwich to Sheringham
2S23 1649 Sheringham to Norwich
2S28 1745 Norwich to Sheringham
2S27 1852 Sheringham to Norwich
2S32 1955 Norwich to Sheringham
2S31 2110 Sheringham to Norwich
2J96 2240 Norwich to Lowestoft
2J99 2330 Lowestoft to Norwich
5J99 0041 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5P04 0544 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2J62 0627 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D73 0727 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2R10 0958 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R11 1028 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R12 1058 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R13 1128 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R14 1158 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R15 1228 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R16 1258 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R17 1328 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R18 1358 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R19 1428 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R20 1458 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R21 1528 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R22 1558 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R23 1628 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R24 1658 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R25 1728 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R26 1758 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R27 1828 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R28 1858 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R29 1928 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R30 1958 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R31 2028 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R32 2058 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R33 2128 Felixstowe to Ipswich
3F33 2208 Ipswich to Colchester
3F34 2335 Colchester to Colchester C.S.D.

5W04 0550 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Ipswich
2W04 0654 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W09 0847 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W10 1020 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W15 1147 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W16 1320 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W21 1447 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W22 1620 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W27 1747 Cambridge to Ipswich
2D92 1917 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J93 2057 Lowestoft to Norwich
1K97 2240 Norwich to Cambridge
5H97 0019 Cambridge to Cambridge Sidings North

5D71 0600 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Lowestoft
2D71 0641 Lowestoft to Ipswich
5D72 0815 Ipswich to Ipswich Shunt Neck 1
5W08 0903 Ipswich Shunt Neck 1 to Ipswich
2W08 0920 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W13 1047 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W14 1220 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W19 1347 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W20 1520 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W25 1647 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W26 1817 Ipswich to Cambridge
2A48 1947 Cambridge to Harwich International
2D98 2147 Harwich International to Lowestoft
5D98 2347 Lowestoft to Norwich
5J99 0041 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5J67 0640 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Lowestoft
2J67 0750 Lowestoft to Norwich
2P12 0836 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P13 0917 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P18 1036 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P17 1117 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P20 1236 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P21 1317 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
5P21 1421 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

Three units start from Norwich Stn C.S.D.

5K55 0507 Norwich Stn C.S.D. to Norwich
1K55 0533 Norwich to Cambridge
2K58 0700 Cambridge to Norwich
5K58 0841 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5S06 0514 Norwich Stn C.S.D. to Norwich
2S06 0540 Norwich to Sheringham
2S05 0716 Sheringham to Norwich
2S10 0821 Norwich to Sheringham
2S09 0944 Sheringham to Norwich
2S14 1045 Norwich to Sheringham
2S13 1145 Sheringham to Norwich
2S18 1245 Norwich to Sheringham
2S17 1345 Sheringham to Norwich
2S22 1445 Norwich to Sheringham
2S21 1546 Sheringham to Norwich
2P30 1706 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2C31 1747 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2S30 1854 Norwich to Sheringham
2S29 1956 Sheringham to Norwich
2S34 2115 Norwich to Sheringham
2S33 2217 Sheringham to Norwich
5S33 2319 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5P03 0550 Norwich Stn C.S.D. to Great Yarmouth
2P03 0624 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2S08 0715 Norwich to Sheringham
2S07 0822 Sheringham to Norwich
2J70 1005 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D79 1107 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2D80 1317 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2D87 1507 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2W24 1720 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W29 1847 Cambridge to Ipswich
2D94 2017 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J95 2148 Lowestoft to Norwich
5S36 2200 Lowestoft to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

One unit overnight at Ipswich

5W01 0450 Ipswich to Bury St Edmunds Sig By19
5W51 0527 Bury St Edmunds Sig By19 to Bury St Edmunds
2W01 0531 Bury St Edmunds to Ipswich
2W02 0616 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W07 0744 Cambridge to Ipswich
2D72 0917 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J73 1057 Lowestoft to Norwich
2J74 1205 Norwich to Lowestoft
2J77 1257 Lowestoft to Norwich
5J77 1341 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

Three units at Ipswich H.S.

5R00 0447 Ipswich H.S. to Ipswich
2R00 0504 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R01 0534 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R02 0604 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R03 0636 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R04 0714 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R05 0747 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2R08 0857 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R09 0928 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2E74 1001 Ipswich to Peterborough
2L75 1150 Peterborough to Ipswich
2D82 1417 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J83 1548 Lowestoft to Norwich
2S26 1645 Norwich to Sheringham
2S25 1749 Sheringham to Norwich
5S25 1905 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5R00 0447 Ipswich H.S. to Ipswich
2W00 0510 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W05 0642 Cambridge to Ipswich
2R06 0825 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R07 0854 Felixstowe to Ipswich
2D74 1017 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J75 1148 Lowestoft to Norwich
5J77 1341 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5W03 0522 Ipswich H.S. to Bury St Edmunds Recp.
5W53 0617 Bury St Edmunds Recp. to Bury St Edmunds
2W03 0622 Bury St Edmunds to Ipswich
2D70 0735 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2J71 0948 Lowestoft to Norwich
5J71 1101 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

Three units start at Colchester C.S.D.

5E70 0530 Colchester C.S.D. to Colchester
2E70 0540 Colchester to Peterborough
2L71 0749 Peterborough to Ipswich
5L71 0930 Ipswich to Ipswich H.S.
5P60 1534 Ipswich H.S. to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5D66 0540 Colchester C.S.D. to Ipswich
2D66 0620 Ipswich to Saxmundham
2D68 0744 Saxmundham to Lowestoft
5D68 0838 Lowestoft to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5T01 0443 Colchester C.S.D. to Sudbury
2T01 0530 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T02 0558 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T03 0625 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T04 0648 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T05 0713 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T06 0736 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T07 0757 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T08 0820 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T09 0845 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T50 0908 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T51 0933 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T10 1001 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T11 1026 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T12 1101 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T13 1126 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T14 1201 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T15 1226 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T16 1301 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T17 1326 Sudbury to Marks Tey
5Y18 1348 Marks Tey to Ipswich H.S.
5P60 1534 Ipswich H.S. to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

Two units start at Cambridge Sidings North

5H56 0540 Cambridge Sidings North to Cambridge
2K56 0602 Cambridge to Norwich
1K65 0833 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K68 1048 Stansted Airport to Norwich
1K79 1327 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K78 1537 Stansted Airport to Norwich
1K91 1827 Norwich to Cambridge
1K88 2020 Cambridge to Norwich
5K88 2145 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5K66 0831 Cambridge Sidings North to Cambridge
1K66 1013 Cambridge to Norwich
1K77 1233 Norwich to Stansted Airport
1K76 1448 Stansted Airport to Norwich
2K89 1727 Norwich to Cambridge
1K84 1925 Cambridge to Norwich
2P42 2140 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P43 2217 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P44 2300 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2C45 2334 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
5C45 0022 Norwich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

Then, nine units have a later start, most of which pair up with an earlier finisher

5P14 0912 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2P14 0936 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P15 1017 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2J72 1058 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D81 1207 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2E78 1358 Ipswich to Peterborough
2L79 1550 Peterborough to Ipswich
2E82 1741 Ipswich to Peterborough
2L83 1950 Peterborough to Colchester
3F83 2155 Colchester to Colchester
3F94 2255 Colchester to Colchester C.S.D.

5T18 1033 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Marks Tey
2T18 1401 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T19 1426 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T20 1501 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T21 1526 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T22 1601 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T23 1632 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T24 1708 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T25 1732 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T26 1805 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T27 1837 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T28 1913 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T29 1938 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T30 2008 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T31 2033 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T32 2101 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T33 2126 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T34 2201 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2T35 2226 Sudbury to Marks Tey
2T36 2301 Marks Tey to Sudbury
2F14 2326 Sudbury to Colchester
5Y14 2356 Colchester to Ipswich H.S.

5C16 1106 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2C16 1136 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P19 1217 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2J76 1255 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D85 1407 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2E80 1601 Ipswich to Peterborough
2L81 1750 Peterborough to Ipswich
5L81 1931 Ipswich to Claydon
5W30 2008 Claydon to Ipswich
2W30 2021 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W35 2147 Cambridge to Ipswich
5P84 2313 Ipswich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5P22 1314 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2P22 1336 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P25 1417 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2P26 1536 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P27 1617 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2J84 1658 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D93 1807 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2E84 2001 Ipswich to Peterborough
2L85 2146 Peterborough to Colchester
3F85 2352 Colchester to Colchester
3F86 0049 Colchester to Colchester C.S.D.

5P22 1314 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2J78 1405 Norwich to Lowestoft
2J81 1457 Lowestoft to Norwich
2J82 1550 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D91 1702 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2W28 1913 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W33 2047 Cambridge to Ipswich
2W34 2219 Ipswich to Bury St Edmunds
5W84 2258 Bury St Edmunds to Bury St Edmunds Sig By19
5W34 2304 Bury St Edmunds Sig By19 to Ipswich H.S.

5J80 1425 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2J80 1455 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D89 1607 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2D90 1813 Ipswich to Lowestoft
2D97 2007 Lowestoft to Ipswich
2R34 2228 Ipswich to Felixstowe
2R35 2301 Felixstowe to Ipswich
5R35 2330 Ipswich to Ipswich H.S.

5P32 1705 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich
2P32 1736 Norwich to Great Yarmouth
2P33 1817 Great Yarmouth to Norwich
2J88 1902 Norwich to Lowestoft
2J91 1955 Lowestoft to Norwich
2J92 2105 Norwich to Lowestoft
5S36 2200 Lowestoft to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

5W32 1904 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Ipswich
2W32 2117 Ipswich to Cambridge
2W37 2247 Cambridge to Ipswich

5W32 1904 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Ipswich
2J90 2005 Norwich to Lowestoft
2D99 2107 Lowestoft to Ipswich
5P84 2313 Ipswich to Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D

and to balance

5P09 2131 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich Stn C.S.D.

5P94 2240 Norwich C.Pt. T.&R.S.M.D to Norwich Stn C.S.D.

 

[Ianno87]

Key question is whether the units get enough time under the wires Peterborough*-Grantham so their fuel capacity lasts for a full daily diagram.

*Would be helpful if Platforms 6/7 were wired at Peterborough.

 

[DB]

Key question is whether the units get enough time under the wires Peterborough*-Grantham so their fuel capacity lasts for a full daily diagram.

*Would be helpful if Platforms 6/7 were wired at Peterborough.

That's a prety small proportion of the route from Norwich to Nottingham!

 

[Ianno87]

That's a prety small proportion of the route from Norwich to Nottingham!

Mileage terms it's reasonably high - 30 miles out of about 130 in total - just under a quarter or so.

Just that 30 miles is at a very high average speed!

 

[JonathanH]

What slack?

As posted above, currently something like 26-27 diagrams for 38 units - that seems like considerable slack to me if the projects that were envisaged for the class - eg hourly Ipswich to Peterborough and through trains from London to the East Suffolk line don't happen.

 

[Wivenswold]

The timetable cuts make a bit more sense suddenly. While the airport is quiet surely it would make sense to put the 317s on Stanex services and the 745s on Cambridge services and the 755/4s on Harwich and Walton branch services.
Though obviously there will be a perfectly rational explanation as to why it's a bad idea

 

[dk1]

The timetable cuts make a bit more sense suddenly. While the airport is quiet surely it would make sense to put the 317s on Stanex services and the 745s on Cambridge services and the 755/4s on Harwich and Walton branch services.
Though obviously there will be a perfectly rational explanation as to why it's a bad idea

755s are already used on the Harwich branch.

 

[Wivenswold]

Thanks all. I'm not a "West Side" (or Harwich Branch) expert.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Only possible option would be for GA to take over or work with EMR on the Norwich-Nottingham route at some point.

How many diagrams would be needed for Norwich-Nottingham? Four? And aren't there effectively six 755 units 'spare' now compared to the planned use at time of ordering?

 

[JonathanH]

How many diagrams would be needed for Norwich-Nottingham? Four? And aren't there effectively six 755 units 'spare' now compared to the planned use at time of ordering?

Mods: feel free to move the posts discussing this to a new thread.

Seven - more than six spare as well.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Seven - more than six spare as well.

So given the dft financial pressure, this seems like a no brainer from a bean counters perspective. Better utilisation of an under utilised fleet, limited additional route learning required for Norwich drivers. Possibility of using the bi-mode under the wires a small distance, so a 'Green' tick in the box, Eases EMR stock shortage.

Looks likely to happen to me !

 

[JonathanH]

limited additional route learning required for Norwich drivers

There is the small matter of how to start and end services at the Nottingham end at the start of the day.

While the EMR Norwich traincrew could be transferred under TUPE to Greater Anglia, some link at Nottingham would need to be established.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

There is the small matter of how to start and end services at the Nottingham end at the start of the day.

While the EMR Norwich traincrew could be transferred under TUPE to Greater Anglia, some link at Nottingham would need to be established.

Fair point. Would then be unit familiarisation rather than route learning for them and vice versa for Norwich crews. Yes training/staff costs, but the leasing cost/availability of stock must be a strong driver.

 

[LowLevel]

Fair point. Would then be unit familiarisation rather than route learning for them and vice versa for Norwich crews. Yes training/staff costs, but the leasing cost/availability of stock must be a strong driver.

FLIRTs are optimised for driver only operation, albeit Driver Controlled Operation with a conductor being the standard on Anglia, and EMR crews don't do that sort of thing, which would be problematic.

It would also be micro-work for very small links of staff whereas at the minute EMR Norwich and Nottingham crews do plenty of other work to keep their day efficient.

In any case there seems little likelihood of a change, the EMR rolling stock strategy does take Norwich into account but not Liverpool and given the DfT declined to move the work to TPE partly on cost grounds for a comparatively small amount of staff development given their existing establishment I don't see it doing much other than remaining as it is.

 

[bramling]

FLIRTs are optimised for driver only operation, albeit Driver Controlled Operation with a conductor being the standard on Anglia, and EMR crews don't do that sort of thing, which would be problematic.

It would also be micro-work for very small links of staff whereas at the minute EMR Norwich and Nottingham crews do plenty of other work to keep their day efficient.

In any case there seems little likelihood of a change, the EMR rolling stock strategy does take Norwich into account but not Liverpool and given the DfT declined to move the work to TPE partly on cost grounds for a comparatively small amount of staff development given their existing establishment I don't see it doing much other than remaining as it is.

There does seem to be an element of “solution looking for problem” in some of the ideas seen on here, and I’d agree status quo is probably best for now.

I wouldn’t be taking units off GA until we know what is going to happen longer term with commuting.

Likewise the 158s are doing perfectly fine on Liverpool - Norwich.

Whilst it’s near on the map go give Liverpool to someone else, especially TPE and run with 6-car 185s, operationally if anything it makes more sense to give south TPE to EMR. Essentially the whole route from Stockport to Cleethorpes / Nottingham is then just EMR + Northern, and it solves the Barton-on-Humber issue too. The only reason to transfer Norwich to GA would then be to balance things up, but again operationally there seems little need.

I’d just run with the 158s for the time being, do some presentation work on them if required. The only real issue is the door config at Piccadilly, which could be mitigated by running 6-car formations as standard.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

There does seem to be an element of “solution looking for problem” in some of the ideas seen on here, and I’d agree status quo is probably best for now.

I wouldn’t be taking units off GA until we know what is going to happen longer term with commuting.

I think the 'problem' is that the 755's are under utilised on GA and EMR have a shortage of units. The second 'problem' is that DfT want value for money for leasing units, so why try and find more units for EMR at additional run cost, when you can move a service from EMR to GA (NB Service to GA not units from GA) and fix both.

The 755's are not really used much for commuting, they are rural/regional units. You can see that because the reduced Covid service reintroduced next week, isn't much different from normal, e.g. basically hourly. The reasons that there are 755's spare is that the extra expansion services planned by Abellio as part of their franchise bid are not happening.

But it's always easy to do nothing in the current railway structure and let the operating subsidy increase. It's a vague hope that GBR would identify and implement financial/operational efficiencies like this in the future.

 

[bramling]

I think the 'problem' is that the 755's are under utilised on GA and EMR have a shortage of units. The second 'problem' is that DfT want value for money for leasing units, so why try and find more units for EMR at additional run cost, when you can move a service from EMR to GA (NB Service to GA not units from GA) and fix both.

The 755's are not really used much for commuting, they are rural/regional units. You can see that because the reduced Covid service reintroduced next week, isn't much different from normal, e.g. basically hourly. The reasons that there are 755's spare is that the extra expansion services planned by Abellio as part of their franchise bid are not happening.

But it's always easy to do nothing in the current railway structure and let the operating subsidy increase. It's a vague hope that GBR would identify and implement financial/operational efficiencies like this in the future.

So to redeploy a handful of 755s, it will be necessary to integrate everything at the Norwich end (which to be fair probably wouldn’t be a bad outcome all other things being equal), but at the same time causing a headache at the Nottingham end. I can’t see any alternative to having crews at Nottingham, so there would have to be a depot or link established, plus in all likelihood some arrangement for light fleet maintenance. A lot of bother for a handful of units, which could well be needed back on GA in the future, where they stand more chance of being able to use their bi-mode capability.

As ever the problem is having to pay comparatively high leasing costs for BR-era stock, in this case 158s, even though they are in many ways still the most suitable stock for the route.

I’m not saying I can’t see any merit in the whole thing - indeed it could certainly work if done as part of a wider remapping. I just don’t think the benefits outweigh the hassle as a short-term sticking plaster. One way or other, a proper decision will need to be taken at some point as to what happens with Liverpool, even if that is keep things as they are and run with 158s.

In reality the determining factor could well end up being how many spare 185s there are. Liverpool-Nottingham is as good a deployment for these as there’s ever likely to be. It then remains whether there’s an appetite for remapping. The feeling at the moment seems to be that there isn’t.

 

[JonathanH]

There does seem to be an element of “solution looking for problem” in some of the ideas seen on here, and I’d agree status quo is probably best for now.

I wouldn’t be taking units off GA until we know what is going to happen longer term with commuting.

There isn't time or money to 'know what is going to happen longer term with commuting'. The government needs savings to be made now because at the moment it is throwing far more money at the railway than it is prepared to pay. Nothing seems to have changed in the year since I wrote the original message to find a use for the spare (and expensive) 755s on lease (although I note that the proposal has its own costs).

The only benefit of having spare 755s seems to be that they can be parked around the back of Crown Point depot and sit there doing nothing.

The suggestion here is that GA take over operation of Norwich to Nottingham. It would be highly desirable to remove an operator from the Peterborough to Ely and Norwich route with Greater Anglia running the full service between Norwich and Ely.

 

[43096]

There isn't time or money to 'know what is going to happen longer term with commuting'. The government needs savings to be made now because at the moment it is throwing far more money at the railway than it is prepared to pay. Nothing seems to have changed in the year since I wrote the original message to find a use for the spare (and expensive) 755s on lease (although I note that the proposal has its own costs).

The only benefit of having spare 755s seems to be that they can be parked around the back of Crown Point depot and sit there doing nothing.

The suggestion here is that GA take over operation of Norwich to Nottingham. It would be highly desirable to remove an operator from the Peterborough to Ely and Norwich route with Greater Anglia running the full service between Norwich and Ely.

Are there any other branch operations in GA land that could usefully be turned over to 755 operation? Likewise, if the proposal to move the Stansted 745s onto Ipswich/Clacton services goes ahead is there an opportunity to use more 745s on those turns with pairs of 755s working Liverpool Street-Norwich instead.

DfT urgently needs to looks at the new Aventra build of 720s (same applies to 701s at SWR, too) and the contracts for them. Given the chronic delays in getting them into service, I'd favour cancelling some of the order - there should be suitable clauses in the contract if it has been well written. It would teach Derby a rather hard lesson, too - something that has been needed for a very long time.

 

[bramling]

There isn't time or money to 'know what is going to happen longer term with commuting'. The government needs savings to be made now because at the moment it is throwing far more money at the railway than it is prepared to pay. Nothing seems to have changed in the year since I wrote the original message to find a use for the spare (and expensive) 755s on lease (although I note that the proposal has its own costs).

The only benefit of having spare 755s seems to be that they can be parked around the back of Crown Point depot and sit there doing nothing.

The suggestion here is that GA take over operation of Norwich to Nottingham. It would be highly desirable to remove an operator from the Peterborough to Ely and Norwich route with Greater Anglia running the full service between Norwich and Ely.

So the real issue it it’s an(other) example of the recent batch of franchising having made a complete mess of rolling stock strategy, and if we’re saying that the issues are Lowestoft through workings and hourly Peterborough then this can’t really be blamed on Covid. To “fix” this, we’re advocating having to spend more money tinkering with established arrangements which work satisfactorily.

I suppose the big question is what is the prospect of these units being productively employed on existing GA services in the relatively near future? If the answer to that really is no then I suppose there is some merit in looking at redeployment. But would one not want to look at simply moving some units to Wales to add to their Stadler fleets?

 

[TheEdge]

I suppose the big question is what is the prospect of these units being productively employed on existing GA services in the relatively near future? If the answer to that really is no then I suppose there is some merit in looking at redeployment. But would one not want to look at simply moving some units to Wales to add to their Stadler fleets?

Even sending them to Wales still creates the micro fleet issue. By the very modular nature of the FLIRT platform the FLIRTs in Wales are different to the ones in Anglia. To start with the Welsh ones are either DEMU or tri-modes as opposed to the bi-mode 755s. Quick Wikipedia scan has them as all having different top speeds and the 755s being significantly more powerful on diesel. They've got a different door layout which presumably means they've got different SDO systems on board. Do the Welsh ones have cameras or are they guard operation only? Its not quite as simple as sending 158s to another operator with 158s...

This forum seems obsessed with the idea of sending 755s to Nottingham without really considering if its plausible. Yes GA could easily absorb the Norwich EMR depot but that really still leaves plenty of issues around how you deal with Nottingham starts and finishes.

 

[edwin_m]

I can't really see why having a certain number of 755s and their crews starting and finishing in Nottingham should be any more of a problem in principle than having a similar number of 158s and their crews starting and finishing in Norwich. However I do agree changing from one arrangement to the other creates significant costs.

 

[JonathanH]

This forum seems obsessed with the idea of sending 755s to Nottingham without really considering if its plausible. Yes GA could easily absorb the Norwich EMR depot but that really still leaves plenty of issues around how you deal with Nottingham starts and finishes.

I doubt that 'the forum' is obsessed with the idea. If GA can park 755s at Cambridge overnight, it seems reasonable they could do likewise at Nottingham. Clearly there is a staffing issue but how different is it to EMR having a satellite traincrew depot at Norwich?

The 'problem' here is that Crown Point is the only depot that can maintain 755s and Greater Anglia have acquired more 755s than they will ever need while at the same time EMR is short of 170s because, as far as we know, no-one has worked out how to make good the issue with obtaining 170s from Southern.

Clearly, we are only raising a speculative idea and everyone can make valid points about impracticalities of the suggestion.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

I doubt that 'the forum' is obsessed with the idea. If GA can park 755s at Cambridge overnight, it seems reasonable they could do likewise at Nottingham. Clearly there is a staffing issue but how different is it to EMR having a satellite traincrew depot at Norwich?

The 'problem' here is that Crown Point is the only depot that can maintain 755s and Greater Anglia have acquired more 755s than they will ever need while at the same time EMR is short of 170s because, as far as we know, no-one has worked out how to make good the issue with obtaining 170s from Southern.

Clearly, we are only raising a speculative idea and everyone can make valid points about impracticalities of the suggestion.

Exactly. It's just an idea. The 'only' valid obstacle is the staffing/training one. Out stabling 755's overnight in Nottingham is no different to where it's done elsewhere. No maintenance regime is required to change. Since dft have decided to split the current Liverpool-Norwich service anyway, what happens north/west of Nottingham can be managed entirely separately to what happens to the south/east. So EMR can run 1,2 or neither of the services. Since dft have decided it doesn't stack up financially to give the north half to TPE after all. I'd be astonished if they weren't looking at alternatives for the southern half, given the reason for splitting the service in the first place was rolling stock shortages.

Ultimately, whether it happens or not depends on whether the training/TUPE costs are less than the leasing cost benefits.

 

[TheEdge]

I doubt that 'the forum' is obsessed with the idea. If GA can park 755s at Cambridge overnight, it seems reasonable they could do likewise at Nottingham. Clearly there is a staffing issue but how different is it to EMR having a satellite traincrew depot at Norwich?

The idea of somehow giving this route to GA in some sense, be it the whole way, some of the way, Peterborough, crew swapping comes up again and again in different guises. It stinks of a solution after a problem to solve. Comparing GA leaving 755s at Cambridge, which is a large established GA depot that signs 755s as a matter of course anyway with somehow doing the same at Nottingham isn't comparing like with like. To even make the Cambridge method work there is a Norwich crew that effectively lodges at Cambridge, they work the 2240 from Norwich then work the 0602 back the next morning. To do the same at Nottingham (based on current service) you'd need to have 3 crews and 2 units there ready each morning. That would probably be preferable and cheaper than TUPEing a whole new depot into existence, perhaps.

The 'problem' here is that Crown Point is the only depot that can maintain 755s and Greater Anglia have acquired more 755s than they will ever need while at the same time EMR is short of 170s because, as far as we know, no-one has worked out how to make good the issue with obtaining 170s from Southern.

Its not like the GA order of 755s was malicious or greedy. No one saw 2020 coming so no one saw the sudden axing of the Norwich in 90 services which would have needed extra 755s or the stone dead killing of the direct London - Lowestoft service.

Out stabling 755's overnight in Nottingham is no different to where it's done elsewhere.

Apart from the fact everywhere else its done (Ipswich, Colchester and Cambridge) are established GA depots with traincrew and a certain amount of maintenance staff.

 

[JonathanH]

Its not like the GA order of 755s was malicious or greedy. No one saw 2020 coming so no one saw the sudden axing of the Norwich in 90 services which would have needed extra 755s or the stone dead killing of the direct London - Lowestoft service.

Absolutely true - the 755s were clearly procured against very valid ideas for service enhancements. I would not have raised this prior to March 2020 but we have to recognise that things have changed and Greater Anglia now has too many brand new 755s not earning their keep.

 

[LowLevel]

I doubt that 'the forum' is obsessed with the idea. If GA can park 755s at Cambridge overnight, it seems reasonable they could do likewise at Nottingham. Clearly there is a staffing issue but how different is it to EMR having a satellite traincrew depot at Norwich?

The 'problem' here is that Crown Point is the only depot that can maintain 755s and Greater Anglia have acquired more 755s than they will ever need while at the same time EMR is short of 170s because, as far as we know, no-one has worked out how to make good the issue with obtaining 170s from Southern.

Clearly, we are only raising a speculative idea and everyone can make valid points about impracticalities of the suggestion.

EMR are having the TfW 170/2s in lieu of the Southern ones. The first is already here and the rest will be along this year.

The other issue with the 755 fleet is fuel range - they struggle in Anglia, doing fairly high speed 260 mile round trips all day won't be great to manage.

 

[ABB125]

are they guard operation only?

No driver?

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately I don't see why outbasing Greater Anglia staff to Nottingham is any less practical than outbasing EMR staff to Norwich.

If the 755s are in use on Nottingham-Norwich we can send some more sprinters back to the leasing company, and hence the scrapline.

We have stock sitting around not being used and that is simply not tenable in the current climate.

The other issue with the 755 fleet is fuel range - they struggle in Anglia, doing fairly high speed 260 mile round trips all day won't be great to manage.

Well the journey itself is 270 miles or so, but there is an electric layover (and 2 miles on the round trip) at the Norwich end, and the fastest 60 miles of the round trip (between Nottingham Jn north of Grantham and Peterborough) is electric.
Plus the reversal/loiter at Ely.

It's a significant distance on diesel, sure ~200 miles per round trip, but given one way takes 2hr40 at the moment, we would be looking at not much less than a 6hr30 cycle time - so trains are going to manage maybe 2.5 round trips per day.

Unless, for some insane reason, the 755s can't take on fuel at the Nottingham Light Maintenance Depot, I don't think there is much of a range problem.

 

[LowLevel]

Ultimately I don't see why outbasing Greater Anglia staff to Nottingham is any less practical than outbasing EMR staff to Norwich.

If the 755s are in use on Nottingham-Norwich we can send some more sprinters back to the leasing company, and hence the scrapline.

We have stock sitting around not being used and that is simply not tenable in the current climate.


Well the journey itself is 270 miles or so, but there is an electric layover (and 2 miles on the round trip) at the Norwich end, and the fastest 60 miles of the round trip (between Nottingham Jn north of Grantham and Peterborough) is electric.
Plus the reversal/loiter at Ely.

It's a significant distance on diesel, sure ~200 miles per round trip, but given one way takes 2hr40 at the moment, we would be looking at not much less than a 6hr30 cycle time - so trains are going to manage maybe 2.5 round trips per day.

Unless, for some insane reason, the 755s can't take on fuel at the Nottingham Light Maintenance Depot, I don't think there is much of a range problem.

There is already a fleet cascade in place for the service, albeit a delayed one (as I mentioned above, the 171s are effectively replaced by the 170/2s).

The staff are already in place for the service.

Any changes you propose come at the cost of making the change - plenty of man hours have just been spent training the EMR Norwich drivers and guards on class 170s which would also be written off on top of any additional training required for a theoretical new depot at Nottingham or route learning from Norwich.

You'd still have to effectively resource trains running to Sheffield either standalone or from Norwich, at the minute interwoven Norwich services have replaced the Erewash commuter HSTs.

I am quite sure that the 755s will find themselves in use in their current home once the dust has settled on passenger figures, it might just take some time to identify where best that use might be.

I'll happily lay a fiver to the Railway Children charity that they'll never work a Norwich to Nottingham service.