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Are there ways that heritage railways could improve the customer experience in the modern era. Having apps for example?

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Mike Machin

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mods note - split from here

I feel many of the heritage railways have extended too much and have become simply too long. Most casual visitors to a heritage line are looking for an afternoon out with a mixture of activities, so maybe a look around a small museum, watching a train come and go, a short train ride, a nice afternoon tea, may be some sort of add-on activity, for example a children's play area, a miniature train ride, a model railway, a falconry display, a picnic area, local produce for sale etc., rounding off with a poke around the souvenir shop. For most people this provides a much more stimulating package than spending perhaps several hours cooped-up on a train for most of the afternoon.

This would provide variety for the visitor, and for the railway it would mean far, far less cost in maintenance as the upkeep of the expensive infrastructure costs a fortune. A line length of around five miles, providing a ten-mile round trip is ideal. Not only does it cost less to maintain, but it would allow the volunteer workforce to really concentrate and focus their efforts to create a really well-presented package, with everything freshly painted, neatly clipped and in pristine working order.

Most heritage railways also need to clear-out and dispose of all the junk they have accumulated over the decades, rusting locomotives, rotting wagons, coaches covered in tarpaulins and piles of old rails and sleepers present a terrible image to the public, one would't go to a theme park and see hordes of old roller coasters cast-aside and languishing in the long grass. We have plenty locomotives, so as sad as it may be, any locomotives which haven't so far been restored can be considered as surplus and can be dismantled to salvage useful parts before being sold off for scrap. Sell off the junk and put the money towards developing an interactive app to enhance the visitors experience (and continue when they get home, perhaps resulting in another visit). Think carefully about the route and maybe consider closing part of the line, recover the potentially useful assets and again the remainder can go for disposal. Some of the land could probably be sold for commercial development or be converted to footpaths, cycle ways etc - a cost-effective way of providing another activity for visitors.

We have entered a new era, and people looking for a much more polished and varied 'package' rather than a long train ride, so it's time for a re-think. The railways that adapt to this 'new world' will have a great future!
 
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Dai Corner

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I agree about getting rid of the junk but I think the trouble is that much of is owned privately?

Are owners generally allowed to keep their rescued wrecks on the railway for free or are they charged a realistic rent?

If course, it gets more complicated if the owners are valued volunteers who might give up if given notice to remove their relics.
 

eldomtom2

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one would't go to a theme park and see hordes of old roller coasters cast-aside and languishing in the long grass.
Yes you would. It happens often enough to have its own term in the roller coaster community: SBNO (Standing But Not Operating).

Plus theme parks are commercial businesses that usually have the infrastructure and cash to make an immediate opinion on whether repairs would be profitable.
put the money towards developing an interactive app to enhance the visitors experience (and continue when they get home, perhaps resulting in another visit).
And what would this app do? "Develop an app" is the wrong attitude to take - identify a problem and then consider if an app is the best way to solve it.
 

stuu

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And what would this app do? "Develop an app" is the wrong attitude to take - identify a problem and then consider if an app is the best way to solve it.
A real time guide to sights out of the window. A way to order food or drink, either from a buffet car or a cafe at the terminus. Train/timetable information, including links to real time information for onward buses or trains where appropriate. I'm sure there's other obvious ideas
 

stuu

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And there's the issue. You think an app is the answer without knowing what the question is.
No. I gave some good examples, and said I'm sure there are others. Perhaps you should read my reply more thoroughly
 

trebor79

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No. I gave some good examples, and said I'm sure there are others. Perhaps you should read my reply more thoroughly
The last thing a heritage line needs is an app! What's wrong with looking out of the windows, enjoying the views, watching and listening to the locomotive and actually experiencing things for real instead of via a 5" phone screen?
Part of the appeal of a heritage line is the time warp effect, so why you'd want to spoil that with Uber Eats style ordering your food in advance and other such gimmicks is beyond me.
 

stuu

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The last thing a heritage line needs is an app! What's wrong with looking out of the windows, enjoying the views, watching and listening to the locomotive and actually experiencing things for real instead of via a 5" phone screen?
Part of the appeal of a heritage line is the time warp effect, so why you'd want to spoil that with Uber Eats style ordering your food in advance and other such gimmicks is beyond me.
Those are fair points of course, but does that apply to everyone? Some visitors will of course not see it that way. I was thinking along the lines of what you get on a bus tour - a bit of information to go with the view out of the window, not expecting people to stare at their phone all the time
 

trebor79

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Those are fair points of course, but does that apply to everyone? Some visitors will of course not see it that way. I was thinking along the lines of what you get on a bus tour - a bit of information to go with the view out of the window, not expecting people to stare at their phone all the time
Many lines already offer/sell pamphlets and books with such information.
 

D6968

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A real time guide to sights out of the window. A way to order food or drink, either from a buffet car or a cafe at the terminus. Train/timetable information, including links to real time information for onward buses or trains where appropriate. I'm sure there's other obvious ideas
How would something like this work when you have no signal or a dead battery?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In the interests of balance - the Mid Norfolk Railway when running to Wymondham is about a 15 minute walk away from the mainline station - that's hardly an excessive distance to walk or it's 5 minutes in a taxi.

To put it in context, the East Lancs which you also mentioned is about a 10 minute walk from Bury Interchange to Bury Bolton Street.
It’s a 10 minute walk down Cemetery Lane at Wymondham no different to getting across Bury or getting across Loughborough,
 
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stuu

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How would something like this work when you have no signal or a dead
Who knows. Magic beans perhaps?

The British Musuem has an app, Westminster Abbey has an app, theme parks do. It's not entirely outlandish, for the bigger lines like the Severn Valley Railway.
 

D6968

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Who knows. Magic beans perhaps?

The British Musuem has an app, Westminster Abbey has an app, theme parks do. It's not entirely outlandish, for the bigger lines like the Severn Valley Railway.
Have you tried getting signal between Northwood and Hampton Loade?
 

Meerkat

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Personally i often find the collection of line-side "junk" the preserved railway has accumulated one of the most interesting bits of the visit!
The least they could do is hang a sign off them saying what they are, ownership, restoration plan, that sort of thing. Make it look deliberate rather than a scruffy scrapyard.
 

John Luxton

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The last thing a heritage line needs is an app! What's wrong with looking out of the windows, enjoying the views, watching and listening to the locomotive and actually experiencing things for real instead of via a 5" phone screen?
Part of the appeal of a heritage line is the time warp effect, so why you'd want to spoil that with Uber Eats style ordering your food in advance and other such gimmicks is beyond me.
100% Agree

About 2018/19 I took a trip on the Talyllyn. In the carriage were a mother and father with their mid to late teenage son and daughter.

They travelled up to Abergynolwyn and back to Tywyn with their children's heads buried in the phones except when stopped at Abergynolwyn for the refreshment break.

Mother and father appeared interested and were talking about the scenery but didn't engage their children or try and take their heads out of their phones.

I actually wondered what the point of taking the children on train had been, unless they had a family membership and were travelling free it was money down the drain at least as far as their offspring was concerned.

Okay I will confess to being a fairly enthusiastic phone user these days but when travelling it is usually using it for notes or if on the main network occasionally looking a Real Time Trains.

I don't want an app to tell me about the railway. That is what the guide book is for! When I visit a heritage line for the first time its always been a case of buy the guide book!
 

stuu

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100% Agree

About 2018/19 I took a trip on the Talyllyn. In the carriage were a mother and father with their mid to late teenage son and daughter.

They travelled up to Abergynolwyn and back to Tywyn with their children's heads buried in the phones except when stopped at Abergynolwyn for the refreshment break.

Mother and father appeared interested and were talking about the scenery but didn't engage their children or try and take their heads out of their phones.

I actually wondered what the point of taking the children on train had been, unless they had a family membership and were travelling free it was money down the drain at least as far as their offspring was concerned.

Okay I will confess to being a fairly enthusiastic phone user these days but when travelling it is usually using it for notes or if on the main network occasionally looking a Real Time Trains.

I don't want an app to tell me about the railway. That is what the guide book is for! When I visit a heritage line for the first time its always been a case of buy the guide book!
Firstly you know absolutely nothing about the dynamic within one family, and what might have gone on previously, or how they came to be on the train.

Secondly, the suggestion of an app was simply that, a suggestion. No one is going to force you to download it

Although I'm at a loss as to why looking at a guidebook has any intrinsic value compared to reading the same information via an app
 

D821

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The "why would other people use an app because I would prefer a guidebook" response is hard to understand.

I've no problem with people preferring a guidebook, if you want a souvenir of your day then they're ideal. If you just want a bit of extra info around your visit and don't want to end up with a bit if dead tree that will just be clutter in your house then the app is just as understandable.
 

John Luxton

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Firstly you know absolutely nothing about the dynamic within one family, and what might have gone on previously, or how they came to be on the train.

Secondly, the suggestion of an app was simply that, a suggestion. No one is going to force you to download it

Although I'm at a loss as to why looking at a guidebook has any intrinsic value compared to reading the same information via an app
I made a comment on something I observed. I don't want to know about nor do I care about the family dynamics. Why should I?

Too many people walk around heads buried in their phones. Even crossing roads oblivious to traffic such as the woman who crossed the road in front of me this morning not looking to see if any traffic was approaching. Head in the phone and not even keeping an eye on her unleashed dog.

Guide books make useful souvenirs.

When I visit a line for the first time I do undertake online research before a visit but that is before I leave home. I am not against an app but would not use it.
 

stuu

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I made a comment on something I observed. I don't want to know about nor do I care about the family dynamics. Why should I?
So why mention them? It might have been their fourth day of travelling on steam railways and the kids had had enough, or the parents had just had a massive row, or any number of things which explain the behaviour you observed.

Everyone is different and has different expectations, something tourist attractions have to be aware of, and change with the times if that is the way the market is going. There's no other choice if they want to survive. Of course an app might be a pointless idea, but to dismiss it out of hand because of your own personal preferences is not a wise choice for a commercial undertaking
 

Fleetmaster

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I'd be heartily impressed if a heritage railway had a useful app, something that could tell people where they are, how to use the trains, enable the purchase of tickets and services, facilitate at seat service, and enhance interpretation of scenery and exhibits.

That would tell me that said railway was well managed because it is moving with the times and tailoring its product to consumer expectations.

A heritage railway with that level of foresight, isn't far off the dream of finding a way to engage children of this generation, who are our course glued to their phones unless or until you offer them a more compelling thing to look at.

The technology already exists to allow a phone to not just show a child through sound and vision what a 1930s/50s branch line station really felt like, but to immerse them in it. Make it feel real. Partly because, due to good management, you were able to convince their teachers or their family that downloading the app and coming to your railway to have that enhanced all facilitated experience, would be both fun and educational.

You can always get more customers, you can always get more volunteers. The critical resource, is good management.
 

John Luxton

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I'd be heartily impressed if a heritage railway had a useful app, something that could tell people where they are, how to use the trains, enable the purchase of tickets and services, facilitate at seat service, and enhance interpretation of scenery and exhibits.

That would tell me that said railway was well managed because it is moving with the times and tailoring its product to consumer expectations.

A heritage railway with that level of foresight, isn't far off the dream of finding a way to engage children of this generation, who are our course glued to their phones unless or until you offer them a more compelling thing to look at.

The technology already exists to allow a phone to not just show a child through sound and vision what a 1930s/50s branch line station really felt like, but to immerse them in it. Make it feel real. Partly because, due to good management, you were able to convince their teachers or their family that downloading the app and coming to your railway to have that enhanced all facilitated experience, would be both fun and educational.

You can always get more customers, you can always get more volunteers. The critical resource, is good management.
Trying to keep this on thread I must ask if a line developed a "super app" would that line be much less likely to fail?

If one takes immersive apps to the logical extent of total virtual reality would there be any place left for heritage transport, industrial museums etc?

People could just dial up say Paddington 1935 and a take a trip on the Cornish Riviera to Penzance.

No need to visit a heritage line, open air museum etc they could all be rendered redundant and there could be a whole string of failures in the heritage sector as each person installs a virtual reality system in their house.

IT technology is wonderful. I am not against it.

I self taught myself on a BBC micro in the early 1980s and ended up as an ICT coordinator at the school where I worked even though I was a Geography / History teacher by training thus I have been involved with computers for a long time.

However, I am very wary of allowing tech to take over completely hence earlier comments on apps. Too much head burying in mobile phones detaches people from the real physical environment of a heritage railway.

Basically too much tech could eventually cause the downfall of the heritage sector.
 

Llanigraham

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Many lines already offer/sell pamphlets and books with such information.
Indeed they do, but as the likes of the National Trust, etc have found an app downloaded to a phone or tablet is much cheaper and can easily be produced in different languages
 

Fleetmaster

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Trying to keep this on thread I must ask if a line developed a "super app" would that line be much less likely to fail?

If one takes immersive apps to the logical extent of total virtual reality would there be any place left for heritage transport, industrial museums etc?

People could just dial up say Paddington 1935 and a take a trip on the Cornish Riviera to Penzance.

No need to visit a heritage line, open air museum etc they could all be rendered redundant and there could be a whole string of failures in the heritage sector as each person installs a virtual reality system in their house.

IT technology is wonderful. I am not against it.

I self taught myself on a BBC micro in the early 1980s and ended up as an ICT coordinator at the school where I worked even though I was a Geography / History teacher by training thus I have been involved with computers for a long time.

However, I am very wary of allowing tech to take over completely hence earlier comments on apps. Too much head burying in mobile phones detaches people from the real physical environment of a heritage railway.

Basically too much tech could eventually cause the downfall of the heritage sector.
In the specific case, I really doubt being able to sit at home experiencing a heritage railway in VR would have a negative impact on footfall (and if anything, could add a revenue stream in the form of licencing). But being able to use a phone to see the sights and sounds as it was, while standing there, with some of the real sights and sounds of steam adding to the effect, would only have a benefit, surely. I'm talking about AR, obviously.
 

bramling

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Indeed they do, but as the likes of the National Trust, etc have found an app downloaded to a phone or tablet is much cheaper and can easily be produced in different languages

Something like the National Trust app is useful in finding out information relating to opening times etc.

I’m not entirely convinced people are going to go to the bother of downloading one every time they visit a preserved railway. What is going to be on there that the website doesn’t contain?

What might be more useful is if the whole “industry” could produce one giving details of *all* preserved railways. I’d probably use that. I wouldn’t go downloading individual ones as I’ve already got too many apps cluttering up my phone, a whole page just for finances and health related stuff for starters, defo don’t need a whole page of preserved railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

So why mention them? It might have been their fourth day of travelling on steam railways and the kids had had enough, or the parents had just had a massive row, or any number of things which explain the behaviour you observed.

Everyone is different and has different expectations, something tourist attractions have to be aware of, and change with the times if that is the way the market is going. There's no other choice if they want to survive. Of course an app might be a pointless idea, but to dismiss it out of hand because of your own personal preferences is not a wise choice for a commercial undertaking

I have noticed an increase in bandwagon visits to places since Covid, and this is by no means unique to preserved railways. The types who turn up with seemingly little to no interest in where they’re at and simply treat the whole thing as one big playground and/or glorified dog-walk facility. Whilst they bring in money, one wonders how many other potential visitors these types put off in the long run.
 

eldomtom2

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The technology already exists to allow a phone to not just show a child through sound and vision what a 1930s/50s branch line station really felt like, but to immerse them in it. Make it feel real. Partly because, due to good management, you were able to convince their teachers or their family that downloading the app and coming to your railway to have that enhanced all facilitated experience, would be both fun and educational.
Developing such an app would be very expensive.
 

Dai Corner

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and cynically would be hard to sell to the Board of Directors or Trustees when there are locomotives and carriages that need restoration.
Surely developing an app is orders of magnitude smaller than restoring a loco or carriage? More like reflooring the tea room or painting a signalbox.
 

Ken H

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Why an app? Just a website would do. Write in something like wordpress. Or even just a pdf people could print off at home if they wanted or could get a printer copy hot off the printer (£2.50 please) at the booking office.
 

D821

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Surely developing an app is orders of magnitude smaller than restoring a loco or carriage? More like reflooring the tea room or painting a signalbox.
Depends what you want the app to do. They could cost anything from a few hundred quid to tens thousands if you are wanting all the whistles and bells.
 

Meerkat

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The problem with things like apps is that you get a volunteer to create it and/or update it and its great.
Then they leave and no one else has the time/skills/inclination to update it - and it slowly gets out of date and misleading.
I'm not really seeing the advantage of an app over a website when most of your visitors are one timers or irregulars.
 

pdeaves

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The least they could do is hang a sign off them saying what they are, ownership, restoration plan, that sort of thing. Make it look deliberate rather than a scruffy scrapyard.
That's one thing that impressed me at the Sittingbourne & Kemsley line. The 'junk' was properly labelled, items that could not be restored had an explanation why (and why it's important to keep anyway), etc. Many lines could usefully follow this example.

In my view, another way heritage lines could improve is to run to the advertised timetable (when there is one). I went to a very big heritage line last weekend. We were herded onto a train ages (about 7 minutes) before the advertised departure time, then sat there for another five minutes after we should have been on the move. That's 12 minutes on the train doing nothing that could have been spent using the loo on the station, for example. The remaining trip over-ran time at every station with no clear reason. The operation looked very lackadaisical. Now, whatever the reasons 'behind the scenes', to the public it looked poor. Good timekeeping (or visible attempts to make up any loss, like looking busy not chatting) and communication why things are not going to plan would be helpful.

Therein lies a problem. Should a heritage railway do 'modern stuff' or should it be truly heritage, reflecting an age when the timetable was advisory at best, when the staff knew all the passengers, when it didn't matter when you arrived as long as you did?
 
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