Are timetables over-padded to avoid Delay Repay?

[Bald Rick]

There are probable reasons why airline timetables might need more padding. Planes might have a strong headwind one day, a strong tailwind another. And there are variations in the routes planes might be ordered to follow on different days, to take account of weather or to avoid other traffic. There is much variation in takeoff queue lengths as well.

Good to invite people to think, though.

The point being that there is variability in the system for air travel. Similarly there is for rail travel. Number of passengers, type of passengers, behaviour of passengers, weather conditions, speed restrictions, amount of other traffic around, etc.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

One example is most of the pre-covid Southampton / Reading - Newcastle services. These were the ones that had a booked 12-minute wait at Birmingham New Street and around 12-15 minutes at Derby.

 

[Jimini]

One example is most of the pre-covid Southampton / Reading - Newcastle services. These were the ones that had a booked 12-minute wait at Birmingham New Street and around 12-15 minutes at Derby.

Did they reverse at either or both (genuine question; I don’t know the answer)?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Did they reverse at either or both (genuine question; I don’t know the answer)?

There were reversals at Reading and Birmingham New Street, yes .

 

[cambsy]

The pre covid Southampton/Reading-Newcastle, reversed at Reading,Birmingham only, The Derby 12-15 minute, was for pathing/padding etc, I have only been on these services a couple of times, so dont know how well to time they ran.

 

[43055]

The pre covid Southampton/Reading-Newcastle, reversed at Reading,Birmingham only, The Derby 12-15 minute, was for pathing/padding etc, I have only been on these services a couple of times, so dont know how well to time they ran.

I would say they were normally about on time by Derby. Some of these services re-timed in 2019? To be up to 30 mins faster by shortening the dwells at Birmingham and Derby and moving the Birmingham to Nottingham service that is ahead forwards by 7 mins.

 

[Esker-pades]

I would say they were normally about on time by Derby. Some of these services re-timed in 2019? To be up to 30 mins faster by shortening the dwells at Birmingham and Derby and moving the Birmingham to Nottingham service that is ahead forwards by 7 mins.

There was an attempt to get them all sped up more recently. Issue there is the quantity of freight running on the Birmingham - Derby line. The freight may well have all been retimed, but I'm not sure.

 

[The Planner]

One example is most of the pre-covid Southampton / Reading - Newcastle services. These were the ones that had a booked 12-minute wait at Birmingham New Street and around 12-15 minutes at Derby.

The pre covid Southampton/Reading-Newcastle, reversed at Reading,Birmingham only, The Derby 12-15 minute, was for pathing/padding etc, I have only been on these services a couple of times, so dont know how well to time they ran.

I would say they were normally about on time by Derby. Some of these services re-timed in 2019? To be up to 30 mins faster by shortening the dwells at Birmingham and Derby and moving the Birmingham to Nottingham service that is ahead forwards by 7 mins.

There was an attempt to get them all sped up more recently. Issue there is the quantity of freight running on the Birmingham - Derby line. The freight may well have all been retimed, but I'm not sure.

Reversal at New St and Derby re-modelling allowed for a timetable change to speed them up. They always got stuffed at Doncaster and it was done as a longer dwell is seen better than being pathed out and plodding along on yellows or sitting outside stations as it implies a delay.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Whilst I can see that there has to be time in timetables to cope with service disruption, some timetables seem to be designed to produce Passenger Charter / PPM compliance, rather than a reliable service for passengers. This isn't the same thing precisely, but it often leads to a perception that the timetable has been "padded".

Take Merseyrail as an example. The first phenomenon is Chester - Liverpool services being timetabled as Chester - Chester services. This means that a late arrival to Liverpool (where a lot of passengers are going) is not measured, only whether the train as back on time at Chester. A remarkable number of services seem to get more on time once they are well on their way back to Chester. This is little consolation if those 5 minutes cost you a connection at Hamilton Square or in Liverpool.
Also, not that many passengers travel end to end on a service like this, but unless there are actual skip-stops, it's only the the line end time which is measured. If you travel to somewhere in between, your trains can be significantly late on a regular basis, but no season ticket refund available because that is based on the PMM for a station you never reach.

It's about time Merseyrail were dragged into full Delay Repay for season ticket holders like (I think) literally every other TOC now does.

 

[Watershed]

Of course it’s not just the railways. I fly Luton to Geneva, regularly. It’s a 500 mile flight, and I have once done it in an hour (Take off to touch down). Allowing 5 minutes either end for taxiing, why do easyJet say it takes 1h40 minimum?

(I’m not expecting a answer, I post this to help others think it through!)

Of course I'm sure you know exactly why they do that!

But for those unaware - it's down to the substantial variation in "SRTs", i.e. en-route journey time. That in turn is due to factors such as winds aloft, assigned altitudes, airspeeds and routes, as well as actual route flown due to traffic separation etc.

Then there's the matter of the taxi route given, the runway and SID/STAR used for takeoff and landing, whether there's a gate available straight away, whether ground handling staff are available, and a million other variables.

That is simply the nature of operating in the air - there is no fixed infrastructure en-route and because not all aircraft have to submit a flight plan or even follow air traffic control, there is essentially infinite variability in the "timetable" each day and very little actually runs "on time". It's almost all early or late.

It's in total contrast to railways - which have fixed infrastructure all the way and where all trains are timetabled in such a way as to avoid clashes.

So when you consider that the penalty for arriving 3+ hours late is £220/€250 per passenger, it's hardly surprising that schedules are padded to such an extent. In fact, it's almost surprising they don't pad more!

 

[Kite159]

It's about time Merseyrail were dragged into full Delay Repay for season ticket holders like (I think) literally every other TOC now does.

Or even full delay repay 15 for non season ticket holders (along with the remaining operators on 30 minutes for delays)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's about time Merseyrail were dragged into full Delay Repay for season ticket holders like (I think) literally every other TOC now does.

These days I think it is much more likely, with the City Region looking to acquire the track, to leave the national network entirely and operate more like the Tyne and Wear Metro. That it is a TOC at all is pure historical accident.

 

[RichardAsh1981]

It's interesting that since I wrote about Merseyrail, they have chopped two station calls out of Chester line services (which now do not stop at Bromborough Rake or Green Lane), with the stated aim of improving service reliability. These stations are now only served by half-hourly Ellesmere Port trains, passengers for Chester have to change. Apparently one caller to complain about this was told it was caused by too many leisure travelers increasing dwell times!
https://www.merseyrail.org/plan-your-journey/bromborough-rake-green-lane.aspx Needless to say local residents feel hard done by given that their service is worse than at any point since 1994 ...