Are Transport for Wales rail accountable to anyone?

[DLAYKEGER]

I realise TFW have had problems with 175s but to not run a timetabled service since the start of March is poor, but then to tell passengers indirectly it will be early Summer before the normal service is back to hourly is a joke. This is made even worse by the draft timetable for a 30min sevice as part of the much fabled North Wales Metro from May 23.

I''ve got to ask, which government officials are sanctioning this, or are they they are not even monitoring what is happening. At least some in the media are starting to ask questions, even if it is an online paper

Transport for Wales opens up on Wrexham Bidston service and when an hourly train service will resume

www.deeside.com

Alyn and Deeside MP said: “Class 150 units appear to have again been moved away from the Wrexham – Bidston line in order to provide services elsewhere, at the expense of this area, despite previous assurances that this process would end.” ‌‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌

“It appears that there is still a mentality that this part of North Wales is suitable for a second class service whenever there are any pressures on the network anywhere else in the country.” ‌‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌

The Office of Road and Rail – the UK government rail watchdog – subsequently issued an ‘improvement notice’ to TfW after the rail operator “failed to ensure passengers and employees are not exposed to the risk” following a series of fires on the 175s. ‌‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌..

 

[bramling]

I realise TFW have had problems with 175s but to not run a timetabled service since the start of March is poor, but then to tell passengers indirectly it will be early Summer before the normal service is back to hourly is a joke. This is made even worse by the draft timetable for a 30min sevice as part of the much fabled North Wales Metro from May 23.

I''ve got to ask, which government officials are sanctioning this, or are they they are not even monitoring what is happening. At least some in the media are starting to ask questions, even if it is an online paper

Transport for Wales opens up on Wrexham Bidston service and when an hourly train service will resume

www.deeside.com

There is a wider problem in this country at the moment, which seems to be that an increasing number of people are utterly and properly sick of *all* the political parties.

It is this political dysfunction that is spawning a lot of Britain’s problems. I sense Wales isn’t immune from this.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

All regions seem to have the same hard-done by outlook and perhaps should acknowledge that the grass isn't always greener... the tiresome Andy Burnham for example is someone I consider to be the worst offender of this*, always moaning about how the government have failed "the people of greater Manchester, and not realising that outside of their own territories there are situations just as tiresome.

Similarly, outside of North Wales, there are similar issues:

SWR, for example, with a reduced service due to broken 159s.
TPE, for example, cancelling a shocking number of services in the North east due to driver shortages.

Last year - or it might have been the year before, TfW's driver shortages caused chaos in South Wales, the Valleys by far the hardest hit in particular.

*Particularly, I'll never forget his tweet "And to think of all the sacrifices the people of Greater Manchester made" after the No10 parties scandal emerged, as if everyone else in the UK had lived la vida loka during lockdowns.

 

[L401CJF]

All regions seem to have the same hard-done by outlook and perhaps should acknowledge that the grass isn't always greener... the tiresome Andy Burnham for example is someone I consider to be the worst offender of this*, always moaning about how the government have failed "the people of greater Manchester, and not realising that outside of their own territories there are situations just as tiresome.

Similarly, outside of North Wales, there are similar issues:

SWR, for example, with a reduced service due to broken 159s.
TPE, for example, cancelling a shocking number of services in the North east due to driver shortages.

Last year - or it might have been the year before, TfW's driver shortages caused chaos in South Wales, the Valleys by far the hardest hit in particular.

*Particularly, I'll never forget his tweet "And to think of all the sacrifices the people of Greater Manchester made" after the No10 parties scandal emerged, as if everyone else in the UK had lived la vida loka during lockdowns.

I would agree with this post - TFW are clearly in a bit of a pickle at the moment stock wise but as 175s are slowly making their way back into service there is at least some improvement - agreed far from ideal.

But you are right that its not just limited to certain areas (or TOCs). Im not up to date with what's going on in SWR land, but I am all too familiar with up north! TPE are a shambles, as are Northern, and at the moment whenever I'm working services to Manchester Airport I seem to spend most of my time taking TPE/NT passengers from the Airport into the City and looking at alternative routes for them due to cancellations. Liverpool into Manchester via Newton le Willows and vice versa seems to be common for TPE/NT cancellations and again they all end up on the TFW services to/from NLW.

Then you've got Avanti who seem to have improved a bit lately in North Wales, but again TFWs services between Crewe/Chester and Chester/Llandudno/Holyhead pick up a hell of a lot of stranded Avanti passengers, and I spend a lot of time on those routes planning alternative itineraries for stranded AWC passengers heading south.

So whilst TFW are getting a lot of bad press lately for obvious reasons, it's a good job the Llandudno - Manchester services and Chester-Crewe services are pretty solid at the moment, they are the only alternative for a lot of people due to other TOCs. I must say TPE seem to be the worst up here currently from my day to day experiences.

 

[Envoy]

The Welsh Government (Labour Party) are responsible for TfW. The Transport Minister is Lee Waters but his real title is ‘Deputy Minister for Climate Change’.

Lee Waters MS

The Welsh Parliament is the democratically elected body that represents the interests of Wales and its people. Commonly known as the Senedd, it makes laws for Wales, agrees Welsh taxes and holds the Welsh Government to account.

senedd.wales

The contact details provided are for Lee Waters in their role as an Member of the Senedd, and should be used if you wish to contact them in this role. If you wish to contact Lee Waters in their entirely separate role as a Minister in the Welsh Government please use the Ministerial contact details on the Welsh Government’s website:

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

TfW Rail (the operator) is accountable to TfW (the WG agency) and ultimately to WG via the Senedd.
But there's no real hazard for the operator as there was when it was a franchise - TfW Rail won't be fired for poor performance (though its boss might)

Having said that, all TOCs are operating under temporary contracts until GBR is set up.
And as we have seen, no private TOCs have been fired over the cancellation issue - financial mismanagement seems the only reason for termination.
ORR monitors parameters like ticketing, station usage, safety and cancellations as for all TOCs, and can issue improvement notices.

 

[The exile]

All regions seem to have the same hard-done by outlook and perhaps should acknowledge that the grass isn't always greener

And that if you want something better you’ve got to be prepared to pay for it

 

[185]

Mark Harper was specifically asked about accountability after DfT/ORR had repeatedly told persons in England to write to the Welsh Assembly - which is a nonsense. For this I have some sympathy for the likes of Burnham - after all he's trying to take the complaint up on behalf of the long suffering passengers who've had to turn to him as the DfT/ORR have failed to do their job in claiming that they are unable to regulate TfW in England - primarily due to the legislation (that they wrote) being wrong.

 

[RailWonderer]

Just like with GA and GWR before it, TfW when all its shiny new rolling stock arrives and beds in will be more reliable than ever and passenger satisfaction surveys will improve vastly. They have it better as a devolved authority than many other operations in England like Northern, TPE and even GWR and Southern that are facing the DfT's (Treasury's) costcutting axe. I'd say Wales is better off on the mid to longer term.

On the nearer term once more 175s are repaired the situation will pick up as well. TfW are in a better position than half the TOCs in the UK frankly and with more incoming electrification and service frequency improvements there is a lot to be excited for. The future doesn't look as bright for operators up North.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I realise TFW have had problems with 175s but to not run a timetabled service since the start of March is poor, but then to tell passengers indirectly it will be early Summer before the normal service is back to hourly is a joke. This is made even worse by the draft timetable for a 30min sevice as part of the much fabled North Wales Metro from May 23.

I''ve got to ask, which government officials are sanctioning this, or are they they are not even monitoring what is happening. At least some in the media are starting to ask questions, even if it is an online paper

What do you think they should do? Put dangerous units back into service?

It's annoying, but the problem is known and a plan is in place to resolve it. And unlike, for instance, the hive of incompetence that is TPE, they have at least (I believe) published an achievable emergency timetable.

 

[Bartsimho]

TfW Rail (the operator) is accountable to TfW (the WG agency) and ultimately to WG via the Senedd.
But there's no real hazard for the operator as there was when it was a franchise - TfW Rail won't be fired for poor performance (though its boss might)

Having said that, all TOCs are operating under temporary contracts until GBR is set up.
And as we have seen, no private TOCs have been fired over the cancellation issue - financial mismanagement seems the only reason for termination.
ORR monitors parameters like ticketing, station usage, safety and cancellations as for all TOCs, and can issue improvement notices.

Thinking about this might it be that they aren't changing the operators (except in exceptional circumstances) because they are planning something as those temporary contracts are allowing them freedom to pick a different path for rail operation?

 

[zwk500]

Thinking about this might it be that they aren't changing the operators (except in exceptional circumstances) because they are planning something as those temporary contracts are allowing them freedom to pick a different path for rail operation?

A large part of it will be that the reasons for the cancellations are systematic and cannot be fixed simply by changing the boardroom. I suspect also that as changing the TOC would change nothing (the DfT are calling the shots) the DfT don't wish to expose themselves to people potentially asking a difficult question for once, and it's easier to leave TOCs in place and beat them with a stick for the amusement of mainstream journalists who don't really understand the industry structure as it is now.

 

[domcoop7]

Mark Harper was specifically asked about accountability after DfT/ORR had repeatedly told persons in England to write to the Welsh Assembly - which is a nonsense. For this I have some sympathy for the likes of Burnham - after all he's trying to take the complaint up on behalf of the long suffering passengers who've had to turn to him as the DfT/ORR have failed to do their job in claiming that they are unable to regulate TfW in England - primarily due to the legislation (that they wrote) being wrong.

Welcome to nationalised rail!

People either have short memories or were not born early enough to remember pre-1994, but the long and short of "who do you complain to when the nationalised industry doesn't do what we want it to?" is you don't.

If there's a problem, it's generally the passengers' fault in the first place. If it isn't, it's the wrong type of snow. If it still isn't then it'll be fake news and a politician seeking re-election will tell you that the Welsh / Greater Manchester / TfL / Scottish / Wherever have invested '£x million' and now run 'y' services and they know that 110% of all passengers say it's brilliant, so it must be you lying.

Of course private companies behave like that too, but they are a layer removed and there's somebody higher up to complain to and get refunds from, etc.

Ever had a refund or an apology (or anything) when your local council doesn't collect the bins / won't fix the potholes / sends you the wrong council tax bill / etc, or DVLA delay sending a replacement driving licence, or HMRC send the wrong tax demand or the DWP underpay your benefit entitlement? No, thought not.

 

[bramling]

Welcome to nationalised rail!

People either have short memories or were not born early enough to remember pre-1994, but the long and short of "who do you complain to when the nationalised industry doesn't do what we want it to?" is you don't.

If there's a problem, it's generally the passengers' fault in the first place. If it isn't, it's the wrong type of snow. If it still isn't then it'll be fake news and a politician seeking re-election will tell you that the Welsh / Greater Manchester / TfL / Scottish / Wherever have invested '£x million' and now run 'y' services and they know that 110% of all passengers say it's brilliant, so it must be you lying.

Of course private companies behave like that too, but they are a layer removed and there's somebody higher up to complain to and get refunds from, etc.

Ever had a refund or an apology (or anything) when your local council doesn't collect the bins / won't fix the potholes / sends you the wrong council tax bill / etc, or DVLA delay sending a replacement driving licence, or HMRC send the wrong tax demand or the DWP underpay your benefit entitlement? No, thought not.

I think this hits the nail on the head. The only time politicians give a stuff about the population is in the immediate run up to an election. The civil service, which is essentially what the DFT is part of, don’t even have that motivation.

This effect seems to have got even worse in recent years - especially this current government though I realise this thread relates more to Wales. I’ve written before on here that this isn’t healthy for our democracy, in the first instance it leads to apathy, and then over time it leads to a full-blown break down of the unwritten contract between state and population. *That* is extremely dangerous territory.

 

[Irascible]

Ever had a refund or an apology (or anything) when your local council doesn't collect the bins / won't fix the potholes / sends you the wrong council tax bill / etc, or DVLA delay sending a replacement driving licence, or HMRC send the wrong tax demand or the DWP underpay your benefit entitlement? No, thought not.

Yes. HMRC not only apologised but decided I'd overpaid & sent me a refund. DWP paid me 7 tears of missing disability payments I didn't even realise I was owed. Get off you lams high horse.

 

[bramling]

Yes. HMRC not only apologised but decided I'd overpaid & sent me a refund. DWP paid me 7 tears of missing disability payments I didn't even realise I was owed. Get off you lams high horse.

I’ve never found HMRC very efficient, though to be fair I’ve never needed to have too much dealing with them.

My local council is utterly dysfunctional though. Getting them to do *anything* is like having teeth pulled, and even the local councillors are completely useless. Indeed just this weekend I had one of the candidates come crawling to my front door looking for votes next month; I took great pleasure in pointing out how he had failed to reply to an email I sent him. But all colours are just as bad where I am, so it will be a spoiled ballot paper.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes - TfW are accountable to the minister who in turn is accountable to the electorate.

 

[zwk500]

I’ve never found HMRC very efficient, though to be fair I’ve never needed to have too much dealing with them.

My local council is utterly dysfunctional though. Getting them to do *anything* is like having teeth pulled, and even the local councillors are completely useless. Indeed just this weekend I had one of the candidates come crawling to my front door looking for votes next month; I took great pleasure in pointing out how he had failed to reply to an email I sent him. But all colours are just as bad where I am, so it will be a spoiled ballot paper.

I've never found HMRC very efficient, but every time I have been due a rebate I've been told about it in roughly the same timescales I've been told I've underpaid, when that's happened (I've always been PAYE salaried and never filed a tax return so haven't had serious dealings with them).

 

[Ken H]

Yes - TfW are accountable to the minister who in turn is accountable to the electorate.

Which minister. Is he answerable for the many services that operate for a large part in England, from stations in England.

 

[185]

... and a politician seeking re-election ...

My guess, including Mark Harper holding back the press release of TPEs 12-month extension until just after polls close on 4 May - local election day.

 

[greyman42]

Yes - TfW are accountable to the minister who in turn is accountable to the electorate.

People seem eager to blame the conservatives when things are going wrong in England, yet when it happens in wales they don't seem as quick to point out that it is labours responsibility. Labour is also responsible in Wales for cancelling all its major road building projects, claiming so called environmental concerns.

 

[zwk500]

People seem eager to blame the conservatives when things are going wrong in England, yet when it happens in wales they don't seem as quick to point out that it is labours responsibility. Labour is also responsible in Wales for cancelling all its major road building projects, claiming so called environmental concerns.

Perhaps because Welsh Government powers are constrained by Westminster to a greater extent than Holyroods? I notice that the SNP are getting a reasonable amount of cop for their performance in Scotland.

 

[greyman42]

Perhaps because Welsh Government powers are constrained by Westminster to a greater extent than Holyroods? I notice that the SNP are getting a reasonable amount of cop for their performance in Scotland.

I don't see any evidence that Westminster is responsible for the transport issues affecting Wales.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't see any evidence that Westminster is responsible for the transport issues affecting Wales.

But the TfW contract, like that of ATW before them, does oblige TfW to provide designated services in England to the satisfaction of DfT (who specify service levels).
That the management and political oversight is in Cardiff does not change that.
The government bodies are not ignorant of their responsibilites, and there are also cross-border local government bodies involved in rail policy in their area (eg Wrexham/Flintshire/Wirral).

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Which minister. Is he answerable for the many services that operate for a large part in England, from stations in England.

That is the crux of the matter. I asked my local English MP if their is sufficient political accountability for the TFW services that run n England as I have no vote in Welsh Elections, so can't vote the politicians out.. No reply yet, but article in local newspaper saying she has been in touch earlier in year.

Does the DFT have any rights to review performance of TFW routes serving England and fine them for non-ruuning, or do TFW get subsidy money for the services they are ecpected run in England whatever happens. Or should Transport for North, Liverpol City Region Mayor, West Midlands Mayor, etc have legal rights to force the welsh govt parluament ministers and TFW senior managers to a cross border rail scrutiny panel.

When a local online paper seems to be the main body asking questions and getting answers it is a very sad state of affairs

 

[Topological]

Two things which do need to be mentioned.

Firstly, there are 175s off lease before the replacements are running the service. Bring those two back and then the Borderlands has its' hourly 150. That seems simple but no doubt someone has a good reason why it is not being done. Cost is not the answer because we are talking about a nationalised operator who should prioritise service and the utility offered to passengers more than the pure financials of paying leasing costs.

Secondly, something has to be done about Cardiff Central. Too many times I find trains coming in and going out in an irrational order with many services ending up late as a result. The layout does not permit so many terminating trains and yet the new Marches timetable adds more terminators from each end (which do not connect with each other for good measure). Whilst TfW are not going to relay the station, they can look to push more trains through. This morning there were a lot of fun and games working out what unit would be 1W13 (which should have started in Swansea, but all operators have cases where they cannot get everything out from intended start points and there is a GWR passengers can use from Swansea in lieu).

Hopefully things will settle down, but it is a mess every time I have to change at Cardiff.

 

[sikejsudjek]

The Heart of Wales line is back to some sort of service in the last week, so the repaired stock must be coming back into service elsewhere. TFW should improve with the planned investments, but as ever it takes time!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Firstly, there are 175s off lease before the replacements are running the service. Bring those two back and then the Borderlands has its' hourly 150. That seems simple but no doubt someone has a good reason why it is not being done. Cost is not the answer because we are talking about a nationalised operator who should prioritise service and the utility offered to passengers more than the pure financials of paying leasing costs.

Not so: TfW has to meet financial targets like any other TOC.
WG doesn't have a bottomless pot of funds for rail - any extra will take money from other WG services like health and education.

 

[Topological]

Not so: TfW has to meet financial targets like any other TOC.
WG doesn't have a bottomless pot of funds for rail - any extra will take money from other WG services like health and education.

Whilst that is a strong argument for a private company who have to consider their image without the "goodwill" of being a public system, the public system should not be leaving people without a service in the way TfW has.

I do not know the leasing costs on a 175, but presume that they are miniscule in comparison to even the health budget which is under the Welsh Government's control. Probably much less than the present sale that TFW are running, not to mention delay repay payouts that have to be made because the service keeps falling over.

The budget is available at: Draft budget 2023-24

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Any chance we can get back to the accountabily question. The example story was to illustrate that TFW are not being forthcoming with information to pasengers and it has taken a local on-line paper to get some answers (many only part answers) after almost 2 months

I have now given up on TFW and drive to Merseyrail, due to limied information updates, late changes, claims from management, that new trains are performing well, etc. Sick to death of their spin / excuses, but no real information on their plans to return to the norm. You often hear more from staff getting updates via the messroom, than we get from TFW management.

Can the Welsh govt really be accountable for the nationalised operator they own, when they hold the budget and dictate where funding is spent. They don't seem to ask the hard questions like why were the 175 not maintained, what is going wrong with train crew training, what is the timetable to get services back to the norm on some lines, why don't they have a mainenance service contract at a weekend for some trains classes

They also have large numbers of customers that don't have any political say in Welsh elections Are these customer really represented by bodies that can scrutinise TFW.