Are Transport for Wales rail accountable to anyone?

[thealexweb]

Surely TfW activities outside of Wales should be supervised by DfT or Transport for the North instead.

 

[tomuk]

Surely TfW activities outside of Wales should be supervised by DfT or Transport for the North instead.

Don't forget Transport for the West Midlands too

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Surely TfW activities outside of Wales should be supervised by DfT or Transport for the North instead.

They already are to a degree.
The TfW contract was specified and let by WG, but to rules largely set in Westminster.

In some ways the TfW contract is similar to that of Merseyrail, also let by a non-DfT body (Merseytravel), and under local government rather than central government rules.
ORR and NR are not devolved anyway, so many aspects of the railway in Wales are DfT's responsibility with UK funding (ie not from Cardiff).
NR divides Wales between its Regions. Most of Wales (also the Marches in England) is in its Western & Wales Region, but the NE corner (including all of Wrexham-Bidston line) are in NW & Central.
In particular the area of control of Chester PSB is in NW&C and one day will be run from Manchester.
Roscos (train owners) are not devolved, and TfW's main rolling stock depot and operational centre in the north is in Chester.

 

[Krokodil]

And that if you want something better you’ve got to be prepared to pay for it

If I thought that by paying more I'd get better public services, I wouldn't mind. In the UK though, any extra money seems to go into a black hole.

My local council is utterly dysfunctional though. Getting them to do *anything* is like having teeth pulled, and even the local councillors are completely useless. Indeed just this weekend I had one of the candidates come crawling to my front door looking for votes next month; I took great pleasure in pointing out how he had failed to reply to an email I sent him. But all colours are just as bad where I am, so it will be a spoiled ballot paper.

Why not stand for election then?

It's a pity the Westminster & Scottish governments don't have the courage to do the same but are in thrall of the roads lobbists

I'm as anti-roads as it gets, but even I can see that cancelling the flying junctions on the A55 will cause more pollution because of the congestion caused by traffic slowing down and then speeding up at the two roundabouts.

 

[markymark2000]

TfW's main rolling stock depot and operational centre in the north is in Chester

Dont forget, it is an aspiration to waste millions of taxpayers money to move the Chester depot over to Broughton just so that they can say that their main depot is not in England.

 

[Topological]

Dont forget, it is an aspiration to waste millions of taxpayers money to move the Chester depot over to Broughton just so that they can say that their main depot is not in England.

May have been prudent to do so before the transfer to 197s so 197s started at the new depot and 175s could be maintained at Chester to the last.

 

[185]

Surely TfW activities outside of Wales should be supervised by DfT or Transport for the North instead.

As confirmed in correspondence to myself (by then Rail Minister Heaton-Harris MP), "TFWRS do not answer in any way to the DfT, only the Welsh Assembly..." and "as such you should contact them".

 

[tomuk]

They already are to a degree.
The TfW contract was specified and let by WG, but to rules largely set in Westminster.

No the WG took a completely different approach to DfT when procuring the franchise albeit it was done within the broad procurement rules.

In some ways the TfW contract is similar to that of Merseyrail, also let by a non-DfT body (Merseytravel), and under local government rather than central government rules.

I'm sure the Welsh will be happy to be relegated to a local government

ORR and NR are not devolved anyway, so many aspects of the railway in Wales are DfT's responsibility with UK funding (ie not from Cardiff).

That is true although WG have control over the Valley Lines.

NR divides Wales between its Regions. Most of Wales (also the Marches in England) is in its Western & Wales Region, but the NE corner (including all of Wrexham-Bidston line) are in NW & Central.

No the border is at Shotton south of there is Wales north NW & Central, same as on the North Wales Coast and the border on the Wrexham line is just north of wrexham near the English Border.

In particular the area of control of Chester PSB is in NW&C and one day will be run from Manchester.
Roscos (train owners) are not devolved, and TfW's main rolling stock depot and operational centre in the north is in Chester.

Chester is in England if you look at a map

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sure the Welsh will be happy to be relegated to a local government

No the border is at Shotton south of there is Wales north NW & Central, same as on the North Wales Coast and the border on the Wrexham line is just north of wrexham near the English Border.

Chester is in England if you look at a map

The most recent NR Sectional Appendices put the administrative border between Western & Wales and NW & Central at Connah's Quay on the Coast main line, and at the Dee Bridge at Ruabon on the Shrewsbury line.
ie the Chester PSB area and that of Wrexham Croes Newydd box is in NW, also the whole of Wrexham-Bidston.
It that's wrong, NR hasn't caught up yet.

In administrative terms WG is a local government body because it is not Westminster (the Welsh Office, Westminster's agent in Wales, is central government).
WG funding arrangements are a version of the LG formula as it is not "sovereign", but has devolved powers in certain areas.
Among other things that defines how money is borrowed and spent.

The TfW franchise/contract was let in a devolved manner but still has to comply with primary Westminster rail legislation.
That means TfW is operating under OLR powers until new legislation is passed for whatever structure is defined for GBR.
Scotrail is in the same position, but has greater devolution and powers over rail (eg over NR in Scotland).
Wales does not produces its own 5-year HLOS/SoFA maintenance/enhancement plans for NR, that's still with DfT.

I am absolutely aware of where the border is between England and Wales.
I also note that Mark Drakeford was answering questions in the Senedd today on rail matters in Wales.
The debate will be visible somewhere online.

 

[tomuk]

The most recent NR Sectional Appendices put the administrative border between Western & Wales and NW & Central at Connah's Quay on the Coast main line, and at the Dee Bridge at Ruabon on the Shrewsbury line.
ie the Chester PSB area and that of Wrexham Croes Newydd box is in NW, also the whole of Wrexham-Bidston.
It that's wrong, NR hasn't caught up yet.

You must be looking at an out of date sectional appendix:
LNW / Wales route boundaries
Wrexham to Bidston -11m - North of Shotwick ground frame - access to Shotton Paper Mill, the area of control of Dee Marsh SB about mile and a half north of Hawarden Bridge
Wrexham to Chester - 202m 60ch - 20 chains north of Wrexham North Junction - where it drops to single line north of Wrexham General also the start of Chester PB area
Chester to N Wales - 188m 40ch - about a mile and a half west of Shotton (Low Level) - it is the fringe bewtween Chester PB and the Wales ROC (Rhyl Workstation.

In administrative terms WG is a local government body because it is not Westminster (the Welsh Office, Westminster's agent in Wales, is central government).
WG funding arrangements are a version of the LG formula as it is not "sovereign", but has devolved powers in certain areas.
Among other things that defines how money is borrowed and spent.

Again you seem somewhat out of date there as well, there was the Silk Commision and the Wales Act 2014 and Wales Act 2017 which respectively gave tax raising powers to Wales and changed the devolved model to one of reserved powers similar to Scotland.

The TfW franchise/contract was let in a devolved manner but still has to comply with primary Westminster rail legislation.
That means TfW is operating under OLR powers until new legislation is passed for whatever structure is defined for GBR.
Scotrail is in the same position, but has greater devolution and powers over rail (eg over NR in Scotland).
Wales does not produces its own 5-year HLOS/SoFA maintenance/enhancement plans for NR, that's still with DfT.

Yes this is a difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK, legislation allows the Scottish Government to run rail services itself unlike Wales or England where they have to be franchised or operated at arms length using OLR powers. It is interesting that the Scottish Government are operating Scotrail under their OLR powers rather than operating direct like the law allows. I wonder why?

Scotland does have powers over NR too although NR Scotland remains part of the wider Network Rail. In Wales I'm sure an agreement could have been reached to give Wales similar powers but the Welsh Government seemed particularly obsessed with gaining control and ownership of just the core Valley lines and they have done so.

I am absolutely aware of where the border is between England and Wales.
I also note that Mark Drakeford was answering questions in the Senedd today on rail matters in Wales.
The debate will be visible somewhere online.

I can watch proceedings of the Peruvian legislature on Canal Congreso de la Republica live on Youtube too doesn't mean I have any say over it as a non resident of Peru or Wales.

 

[Mwanesh]

Work going on at Llanhileth Station on the Ebb Vale Line. They are putting longer platforms and building a footbridge. Don't know when the works are due to finish

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Back to the subject, it seem if I am reading correctly DFT has ovetsight of TFW running in England, but this seem very lightweight, probably as they have bigger problems to sort (TPE). English based MPs can ask questions, but only the DFT can claw back grants for non running

That leaves the Welsh Govt to oversee the Welsh Government owned train operator.

Maybe it is time for an independant scrutiny panel with English and Welsh representatives to be put in place to ask the hard questions (What went wrong with 175 mainenance, why are bus replacement not fit for purpose), and advise on what shoild be transport priorities.

For example, we have the Welsh Govt running lots of South Wales to Holyhead directs (probably to be seen to bring together the nation), but is this political / nation standpoint really making the best use of trains and track. If passengers where consulted properly, would they request more North Wales coast services direct to Manchester, Crewe and Liverpool, as these seem to be more natural journeys given travel to work area in NW cities, football affiliations, airports used and vital hospital services for more acute illness. Plus inbound tourism from North West England is important for the North Wales Economy. Other prioritisation coild be is it right to take trrains off a line for another line, that has in effect stopped commuting for 2 months. I am sure S Wales respondants would have similari issues

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You must be looking at an out of date sectional appendix:
LNW / Wales route boundaries
Wrexham to Bidston -11m - North of Shotwick ground frame - access to Shotton Paper Mill, the area of control of Dee Marsh SB about mile and a half north of Hawarden Bridge
Wrexham to Chester - 202m 60ch - 20 chains north of Wrexham North Junction - where it drops to single line north of Wrexham General also the start of Chester PB area
Chester to N Wales - 188m 40ch - about a mile and a half west of Shotton (Low Level) - it is the fringe bewtween Chester PB and the Wales ROC (Rhyl Workstation.

Again you seem somewhat out of date there as well, there was the Silk Commision and the Wales Act 2014 and Wales Act 2017 which respectively gave tax raising powers to Wales and changed the devolved model to one of reserved powers similar to Scotland.

Yes this is a difference between Scotland and the rest of the UK, legislation allows the Scottish Government to run rail services itself unlike Wales or England where they have to be franchised or operated at arms length using OLR powers. It is interesting that the Scottish Government are operating Scotrail under their OLR powers rather than operating direct like the law allows. I wonder why?

Scotland does have powers over NR too although NR Scotland remains part of the wider Network Rail. In Wales I'm sure an agreement could have been reached to give Wales similar powers but the Welsh Government seemed particularly obsessed with gaining control and ownership of just the core Valley lines and they have done so.

I can watch proceedings of the Peruvian legislature on Canal Congreso de la Republica live on Youtube too doesn't mean I have any say over it as a non resident of Peru or Wales.

Thanks for the clarification. I remember the announcements but they are not reflected in the SA on the NR site.
So essentially Wales has everything outside the Chester PSB control area, and from Dee Marsh control area to Wrexham (ie all the mechanical signalling...).
The SA (at least the one available publicly) and Trackmaps need to catch up.

I know WG is not quite like an England LA, having significant revenue and spending powers (though Welsh counties have generally fewer powers than an England LA).
But it is still subservient to Westminster, and rail is in the peculiar state of being only partially devolved.

 

[33017]

Dont forget, it is an aspiration to waste millions of taxpayers money to move the Chester depot over to Broughton just so that they can say that their main depot is not in England.

Given the lack of capacity at Chester, that might not be a bad idea.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Given the lack of capacity at Chester, that might not be a bad idea.

But remember it is the Wales and Borders Franchise. Not everything needs to be physically located in Wales to serve Wales and Borders. Why not north of Chester along the M56 corridor, with the mass of engineering experience in the North Cheshire region.. Given thousands of people cross the border to airbus at Broughton, it would suggest a limited pool of local staff available for Engineering related jobs in NE Wales. The best location with a talented workforce should be the primary reason for location

 

[Bartsimho]

But remember it is the Wales and Borders Franchise. Not everything needs to be physically located in Wales to serve Wales and Borders. Why not north of Chester along the M56 corridor, with the mass of engineering experience in the North Cheshire region.. Given thousands of people cross the border to airbus at Broughton, it would suggest a limited pool of local staff available for Engineering related jobs in NE Wales. The best location with a talented workforce should be the primary reason for location

But it is run by the Welsh Assembly so they would want it to be in Wales itself not in England

 

[Goldfish62]

Labour is also responsible in Wales for cancelling all its major road building projects, claiming so called environmental concerns.

And an excellent decision that is too. I'd love to see the £29bn new roads programme in England cancelled and all the money invested in public transport instead.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

But it is run by the Welsh Assembly so they would want it to be in Wales itself not in England

Ok on your rationale, lets stop trains at a pretend border, that no one really cares about to keep welsh trains in Wales.You'll find North East Wales, Cheshire and Merseyside are more linked than North Wales to South Wales I know when I went to college in Wrexham, many had no time for Sourh Wales.

Nobody gave me any say in my line being run by politicians based in
Cardiff docks and worse still I still don't have any say

Just because the assembly runs trains, they should have no right to be biased to Wales, they have been tasked with also running the Borders and Wales franchise, and if the most efficient site is in the M56 corridor that should be the considered. If they are not going to be equitable maybe they are not best placed to run the Borders sections, especially as the DFT pays them to run services in England

 

[MikeWM]

2 coach 150’s are running 5.45 Carmarthen to Manchester

I had the 'pleasure' of catching that betwen Shrewsbury and Crewe on Wednesday. Given that this is the first train going north from Shrewsbury after a very long post-9am gap [1] it was fairly dismaying to see it announced as just 2 coaches, and further dismaying to see that they were 150s. It was very cosy.

[1] there's a gap of over 90 minutes at this point in the 'hourly' Chester service, which really could do with being better distributed. Most of the rest of the day it is pretty close to an even, hourly service.

 

[greyman42]

And an excellent decision that is too. I'd love to see the £29bn new roads programme in England cancelled and all the money invested in public transport instead.

Public transport will benefit from the new roads as will car users and car is how most people get around.

 

[Goldfish62]

Public transport will benefit from the new roads as will car users and car is how most people get around.

Modal shift needs to take place from the car to public transport and sustainable means otherwise the whole of the country will become one massive road in time.

Car dependency is a chronic problem. The answer to improving public transport journey times and reliability is not more roads, but more bus priority.

 

[Bartsimho]

Ok on your rationale, lets stop trains at a pretend border, that no one really cares about to keep welsh trains in Wales.You'll find North East Wales, Cheshire and Merseyside are more linked than North Wales to South Wales I know when I went to college in Wrexham, many had no time for Sourh Wales.

Nobody gave me any say in my line being run by politicians based in
Cardiff docks and worse still I still don't have any say

Just because the assembly runs trains, they should have no right to be biased to Wales, they have been tasked with also running the Borders and Wales franchise, and if the most efficient site is in the M56 corridor that should be the considered. If they are not going to be equitable maybe they are not best placed to run the Borders sections, especially as the DFT pays them to run services in England

I was thinking that if a depot was being built they would want it to be in Wales and not Chester to provide jobs for those in Wales especially North Wales.

The rational is they are happy to provide a service (and take the revenue) to England due to the higher traffic demands in the area vut any depot they would want in Wales to have the local benefits from.

 

[Krokodil]

If passengers where consulted properly, would they request more North Wales coast services direct to Manchester, Crewe and Liverpool

I think that the planned balance is broadly right, actually. Hourly Manchester, hourly Liverpool (soon), two-hourly Birmingham, two-hourly Cardiff. Avanti need to reinstate the hourly London service from Chester though.

Ok on your rationale, lets stop trains at a pretend border, that no one really cares about to keep welsh trains in Wales.

Which is basically the current situation in Bosnia. No passenger trains have crossed internal, or external borders since covid (since 2018 in some cases).

Modal shift needs to take place from the car to public transport and sustainable means otherwise the whole of the country will become one massive road in time.

Car dependency is a chronic problem. The answer to improving public transport journey times and reliability is not more roads, but more bus priority.

I broadly agree but as I posted before, we really do need flying junctions at Penmaenmawr and Llanfairfechan. The roundabouts create quite a bit of pollution by slowing everyone down, and speeding them back up again pointlessly.

 

[greyman42]

Modal shift needs to take place from the car to public transport and sustainable means otherwise the whole of the country will become one massive road in time.

Car dependency is a chronic problem. The answer to improving public transport journey times and reliability is not more roads, but more bus priority.

It is not realistic to think that a significant amount of people are going to swap their cars for buses.

 

[Goldfish62]

It is not realistic to think that a significant amount of people are going to swap their cars for buses.

Even a modest reduction in car volumes would have a significant impact.

And I specifically didn't just refer to buses.

I broadly agree but as I posted before, we really do need flying junctions at Penmaenmawr and Llanfairfechan. The roundabouts create quite a bit of pollution by slowing everyone down, and speeding them back up again pointlessly.

I probably agree with that scenario.

 

[Topological]

Even a modest reduction in car volumes would have a significant impact.

And I specifically didn't just refer to buses.


I probably agree with that scenario.

The problem is that this is a classic chicken and egg. Pressurising motorists before the public transport is ready will only breed resentment at best. At worst there will be a lack of connectivity to new opportunities, and through key arteries, that will do economic damage.

The transition to 197s is a case in point. The option to build the new depot first was there but instead the constraint is applied first and suddenly Chester is "full" and the current fleet cannot be maintained. This thread need not exist. Building the depot first would signal ambition, create jobs now and really allow a positive transition to 197s.

I worry that the Welsh Government have their heart in the right place but lack the ambition to make it happen.

And before anyone goes on about budgets and doing everything on shoestrings these decisions to build the depot would have been taken many years ago and negotiations on capital raising could have been handled pre-Covid.

 

[Tom125]

I think there is a misunderstanding regarding the roads review in Wales. The Welsh Government announced an end to new road building UNLESS it achieves the following criteria:
1. To support modal shift and reduce carbon emissions.
2. To improve safety through small scale changes.
3. To adapt to the impact of climate change.
4. To provide access and connectivity to jobs and centres of economic activity in a way that supports modal shift

It does not mean there will never be a new road in Wales but for the length of this Welsh Parliamentary term there will be no big road projects such as the like of the A465 dualling. Link to document here: https://www.gov.wales/welsh-government-response-roads-review-html

On accountability:

As set out in TfW Corporate strategy https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2022-12/ENG_Final-Corporate-Strategy.pdf

'Transport for Wales Rail Ltd is wholly owned by TfW and is responsible for delivering
the obligations set out in the Grant Agreement relating to the Wales and Borders rail
franchise between the Welsh Ministers and Transport for Wales Rail Ltd.
The board is chaired by our Chief Executive Officer, TfW’s Accounting Officer and line
manager of Transport for Wales’ Chief Operations Officer.
TfW’s Board holds our Chief Executive Officer to account for Transport for Wales Rail’s
performance.
Transport for Wales Rail’s Board also includes our Chief Finance, Governance and
Corporate Services Officer, Chief Commercial Officer, Chief Operations Officer, Chief
Customer and Culture Officer and Non-Executive Director, Peter Strachan'

The TfW board information can be found here. https://tfw.wales/transport-wales-board-operating-framework

TfW board are ultimately responisble to Welsh Ministers who are appointed by the First Minister.

On a wider note I think TfW rail have been shocking recently. I live near Aberdare and you can see the huge improvement works taking place. I've been using the Rhymney line this week and the new trains there are awesome. We've had to put up with disruption galore recently with planned closures but you can see the glimmers of hope emerging. The class 175 maintainence debarcle was shocking but the ORR slapped TfW down hard on that one, class 150s filled the gap. I think the railway in Wales and the borders will be transformed in a year or two and all this anger will be forgotten- TfW has already introduced (all be it ropey) first class between Cardiff and Mancheser and restaurant cars (that's how a proper intercity service should be). FLIRTS on the Rhymney (AWESOME!). 197s in North Wales seem to be doing a good job too!

I don't think Labour get everything right in Wales (I disagree with the roads review amongst many other things) but I think in 2 years time we will all agree that rail services in the Wales and borders will be a step up from 2018 and Arriva!

 

[tomuk]

On accountability:

As set out in TfW Corporate strategy https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2022-12/ENG_Final-Corporate-Strategy.pdf

'Transport for Wales Rail Ltd is wholly owned by TfW and is responsible for delivering
the obligations set out in the Grant Agreement relating to the Wales and Borders rail
franchise between the Welsh Ministers and Transport for Wales Rail Ltd.
The board is chaired by our Chief Executive Officer, TfW’s Accounting Officer and line
manager of Transport for Wales’ Chief Operations Officer.
TfW’s Board holds our Chief Executive Officer to account for Transport for Wales Rail’s
performance.
Transport for Wales Rail’s Board also includes our Chief Finance, Governance and
Corporate Services Officer, Chief Commercial Officer, Chief Operations Officer, Chief
Customer and Culture Officer and Non-Executive Director, Peter Strachan'

The TfW board information can be found here. https://tfw.wales/transport-wales-board-operating-framework

TfW board are ultimately responisble to Welsh Ministers who are appointed by the First Minister.

Yes but that completely ignores the point and issue of this thread that there is no oversight by English elected ministers or others for the English elements of services run by TfW. Said english services make up a considerable element of TfW revenues and passengers carried.

 

[33017]

Yes but that completely ignores the point and issue of this thread that there is no oversight by English elected ministers or others for the English elements of services run by TfW. Said english services make up a considerable element of TfW revenues and passengers carried.

There is. DfT have plenty of say on the English elements.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

There is. DfT have plenty of say on the English elements.

But if that was working, would TFW have been able to effectively stop commuting to work on a line for nearly two months without a suitable / reliable alterntive. Surely as 175 came back they coild have at least provided one 150 back to get commuters to Liverpool and Wrexham by 8am and 9am respectively, which is not an unreasonable ask. No we get more trains on other lines and extras in some areas