Are you obliged to ‘rush’ to make your cross-London tube connection?

johnnychips

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I’m on a train now, delayed, that should arrive at Paddington at 2020 but is predicted to arrive at 2038. I have a ticket that allows the tube, and my next train leaves St P at 2132. Now, depending on which source you read on this forum either 45 or 51 minutes are allowed for this transfer, so I should make it, arriving at St P at 2129 at the latest.

Then I thought, what if I arrived at Paddington, say 43 minutes before my departure from St P, but still late. In theory, I can’t make my connection, but practically I could easily do it in that time. If I don’t mind getting the next later train from St P, can I go for a kebab and a pint? Can I claim delay repay?
 
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Ianno87

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I'd say deliberately trying to miss a connection and then claiming Delay Repay would be fraudulent, and to claim DR one should have made "reasonable endeavours" to make the planned connection.
 

johnnychips

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This is interesting as, to be honest, I very rarely claim delay repay anyway. However, there was no catering on the train and I am starving and there is an EMR train an hour later than I am down for. Arrival at Paddington now 2045; and bizarrely a suburban train has just undertaken us between Reading and London.
 
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alistairlees

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The connection time from Paddington to st Pancras at this time of the day is 15 + 20 + 15 = 50 minutes. If you arrive at Paddington at 20.45 then you can’t make the 21.32 from st Pancras and so may claim delay repay if you do fail to make that train.
 

johnnychips

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Well it is literally pulling in now at 2050. So I have 42 mins to get my train. Should I make an effort to make it or get a kebab?!
 

miami

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Looks like it arrived 30 minutes late, at 2050. Certainly there's no need to rush, it's up to you.

I assume there's be food at St Pancras as much as at Paddington.
 

johnnychips

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Not my night. All tube trains east from Pad terminating at Edgware Rd! Please change there.
 

njr001

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If not too late take Bakerloo to Oxford Circus then Victoria Line.
 

Ianno87

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It’s up to you. Officially you can’t make it.

How far does that logic get taken? Say a 20 minute connection at Birmingham New Street gets reduced to 2 minutes... but the connecting train is on the opposite side of the platform.

Or a 5 minute connection at Salford Crecent becomes 4 minutes, when you'd literally sit and watch your connecting train depart and leave.
 

SteveM70

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For me there’s an obligation to do what you reasonably can to make the connection. No need to run, but walking rather than dawdling.
 

alistairlees

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How far does that logic get taken? Say a 20 minute connection at Birmingham New Street gets reduced to 2 minutes... but the connecting train is on the opposite side of the platform.

Or a 5 minute connection at Salford Crecent becomes 4 minutes, when you'd literally sit and watch your connecting train depart and leave.
It works both ways. If you arrive, on time, at Redhill P3 at the back of a 12-car train, and want to make a connecting train on P1, which will also be at the far end potentially, then you have to walk around 500m in 3 minutes. Which most people can't do. No delay repay though, if everything was on time.
 

Kilopylae

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How far does that logic get taken? Say a 20 minute connection at Birmingham New Street gets reduced to 2 minutes... but the connecting train is on the opposite side of the platform.

Or a 5 minute connection at Salford Crecent becomes 4 minutes, when you'd literally sit and watch your connecting train depart and leave.
The problem there would be poorly-chosen minimum connection times. For as long as the connection times are what they are the passenger is under no obligation to make a change in less time. You'd be a bit silly to mention the kebab and the pint in your DR claim but you'd be completely within your rights.
 

johnnychips

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No, got to St P and absolutely starving at 2128. I suppose I could have caught it if I had run. Will not claim delay repay.

Which LUL platform did you use at Paddington??
I have found Paddington to be confusing in the past, but this time the train terminated on the right hand side of the station as it arrived, I walked out on Praed St, turned left, then left, and there was an underground entrance outside the station.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
No, got to St P and absolutely starving at 2128. I suppose I could have caught it if I had run. Will not claim delay repay.


I have found Paddington to be confusing in the past, but this time the train terminated on the right hand side of the station as it arrived, I walked out on Praed St, turned left, then left, and there was an underground entrance outside the station.

As you mentioned Praed Street and Edgware Road (in previous post), it sounds like as if you was on a District or Circle Line train (if it was a tall train where you can walk through the coaches, or cars in London Underground speak). All District/Circle Line trains from Praed Street terminate at Edgware Road (Met) since 2009.

A tip for next time is to avoid the change at Edgware Road (Met/Hammersmith & City) as it is not always the opposite face of the same island platform there, is to head towards the Bishops Bridge Road platforms (next to the Relief Line platforms, numbered 15 and 16 and signposted Underground Hammersmith & City/Circle Line) as the trains go direct to the three stations along Euston Road.
 

306024

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Well it is literally pulling in now at 2050. So I have 42 mins to get my train. Should I make an effort to make it or get a kebab?!

Regardless of the tube service, and the morality of delay repay, I certainly wouldn’t get a kebab ;)
 

3rd rail land

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No, got to St P and absolutely starving at 2128. I suppose I could have caught it if I had run. Will not claim delay repay.
So even if you hadn't made a pit stop for sustenance you probably wouldn't have made the train. On that basis alone I would claim delay relay. After all you're under no obligation to run for a train in which you didn't have the minimum connection time to catch through no fault of your own.

Enjoy the Kebab, pint and a leisurely stroll to your train.
 

robbeech

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How far does that logic get taken? Say a 20 minute connection at Birmingham New Street gets reduced to 2 minutes... but the connecting train is on the opposite side of the platform.

Or a 5 minute connection at Salford Crecent becomes 4 minutes, when you'd literally sit and watch your connecting train depart and leave.
The figures are absolute values, if the minimum connection time is 15 minutes, it's 15 minutes, if you're given 14 minutes to make the connection and you miss it then you're eligible for delay repay. They have to draw the line and that is the line. Many operators already reject delay repay if you claim a missed connection and there is a 0-MCT gap (for example being left with 1-7 minutes at York would result in a rejection but -1 would be approved), examples of this and other things can be found here in this recent thread.

For me there’s an obligation to do what you reasonably can to make the connection. No need to run, but walking rather than dawdling.
Absolutely, there is little point making it difficult for yourself by un-necessarily delaying your journey if you CAN SAFELY make it. however.......


No, got to St P and absolutely starving at 2128. I suppose I could have caught it if I had run. Will not claim delay repay.
You are told quite clearly NOT to run on the railway, and for very good reason. As such, as you didn't cause undue delay by stopping for food, and without running you were unable to catch the train therefore you are entitled to, and i strongly recommend you claim for this journey. The compensation will hopefully pay for any food you may have consumed in the waiting time, although at St Pancras prices, perhaps not.
 

Ianno87

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It works both ways. If you arrive, on time, at Redhill P3 at the back of a 12-car train, and want to make a connecting train on P1, which will also be at the far end potentially, then you have to walk around 500m in 3 minutes. Which most people can't do. No delay repay though, if everything was on time.

The figures are absolute values, if the minimum connection time is 15 minutes, it's 15 minutes, if you're given 14 minutes to make the connection and you miss it then you're eligible for delay repay. They have to draw the line and that is the line. Many operators already reject delay repay if you claim a missed connection and there is a 0-MCT gap (for example being left with 1-7 minutes at York would result in a rejection but -1 would be approved), examples of this and other things can be found here in this recent thread.

There's a difference between missing the connection because you genuinely didn't have enough time to make it safely/find your way, and missing the connection purely because you chose not to try to make it (even if the time you were left with was less then the minimum connection time).

I'd say claiming DR was morally correct for the former but not the latter.
 

robbeech

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My life is (well, was) far too busy to delay myself just so i can get a few quid back, but there will always be people that will do this. Infact there will be some that plan a journey to maximise the chances of it happening.

My last 2 opportunities home from London when i was down there every week were just after 2000 from St Pancras or, when it runs, the 2030 Hull trains from King's Cross. It was a +11 at Nottingham, or a +12 at Retford so it doesn't take a lot to go wrong on the MML or ECML for it to be a taxi job. I'd walk as fast as the railway considers acceptable to make the connections and i'd probably miss them by seconds 10% of the time and miss them by minutes once or twice a month. I've never considered not trying to catch it, because a taxi from Nottingham always takes an hour to arrive and an hour to drive, and whilst that is often an extra £54 back in my pocket (based on the 7DF price at the time) my free time is worth much more than this.
 

skyhigh

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My life is (well, was) far too busy to delay myself just so i can get a few quid back, but there will always be people that will do this. Infact there will be some that plan a journey to maximise the chances of it happening.

My last 2 opportunities home from London when i was down there every week were just after 2000 from St Pancras or, when it runs, the 2030 Hull trains from King's Cross. It was a +11 at Nottingham, or a +12 at Retford so it doesn't take a lot to go wrong on the MML or ECML for it to be a taxi job. I'd walk as fast as the railway considers acceptable to make the connections and i'd probably miss them by seconds 10% of the time and miss them by minutes once or twice a month. I've never considered not trying to catch it, because a taxi from Nottingham always takes an hour to arrive and an hour to drive, and whilst that is often an extra £54 back in my pocket (based on the 7DF price at the time) my free time is worth much more than this.
Indeed - there used to be a London arrival into Leeds 11 minutes before an evening connection (the connection time at Leeds is 10 minutes). The next connection was 70 minutes later. A couple of minutes delay on the London train would mean an almost guaranteed full refund of the ticket price. I know several people who frequently got free First Class trips using that booked service.
 

miklcct

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Indeed - there used to be a London arrival into Leeds 11 minutes before an evening connection (the connection time at Leeds is 10 minutes). The next connection was 70 minutes later. A couple of minutes delay on the London train would mean an almost guaranteed full refund of the ticket price. I know several people who frequently got free First Class trips using that booked service.

I won't want it happen! If the incoming train is delayed I will run to the other platform hoping to make the connection to get home as soon as possible getting off work!
 

STINT47

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I wouldn't feel guilty claiming delay repay in this situation.

TOCs will reject a delay repay claim if your itinary doesnt meet the minimumn connection time. You may actually get an earlier train, which then gets delayed but if its earlier than your given itinerary/connection they will not pay out.

They can't pick and choose when the connection times apply and I would always claim if delayed.

An idea would be to allow passengers to adjust the minimum connection times. I can cross London faster than my grandparents for example. One size doesnt fit all passengers.
 

johnnychips

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Thanks for all your replies. What actually happened was that I thought I would easily make the train from St P, despite it being less than the connection time, and my question was entirely theoretical. In fact, I couldn’t have made the train because of the vagaries of the Tube, and as I haven’t used St P for EMR trains before, I didn’t realise the platform was so far away from the front. So even if I had run - which @robbeech advised against - I wouldn’t have made it.

I had a nice kebab for £6, and arrived at Sheffield at some ungodly hour. On the basis of your replies, I think I should claim Delay Repay, but if I get it I will donate it to a charity.
 

MikeWh

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On the basis of your replies, I think I should claim Delay Repay, but if I get it I will donate it to a charity.
Well that sounds like the best of all worlds. TOC suffers, you don't feel guilty, charity wins!
 

johnnychips

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It really wasn’t the TOC’s fault. The driver didn’t turn up at Exeter on time - and this is according to the guard - as he was stuck in some massive traffic jam on the M5. Then there was a slowdown at Westbury, which is available in other threads. Anyway, all’s well that ends well.
 

Flying Snail

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Indeed - there used to be a London arrival into Leeds 11 minutes before an evening connection (the connection time at Leeds is 10 minutes). The next connection was 70 minutes later. A couple of minutes delay on the London train would mean an almost guaranteed full refund of the ticket price. I know several people who frequently got free First Class trips using that booked service.

While they are entitled to the refund once the incoming train breaks the minimum connection time, that only applies if they do not make the connection and actually are delayed.

The incoming train being slightly delayed does not entitle them to compensation if they do make the connection and arrive at their destination within the margin for repay, applying for a refund in this situation would be fraud.

I suppose there is a grey area where the official connection time is broken but there is enough time for anyone without a severe physical disability to easily make the connection, let's face it 3-4 minutes is enough time for an able bodied person to make almost any connection in Leeds, particularly so for someone familiar with the station.

Intentionally dawdling or visiting the toilets or catering outlets or shops in order to miss the connection in order to claim a refund is certainly morally questionable but as long as the connection is missed and the passenger does indeed arrive at their destination over the threshold they have a valid claim.
 

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