Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Bristol LHS]

The “sorting out” didn’t involve Percy Main at all. Go had bought Northumbria Coaches in Ashington, and were operating the competing services from there.

I didn’t say it did. I said it might have been better if it had.

In fairness, I think that's what they were saying.

Thanks, it was.

Had the "sorting out" been done another way, Arriva could've retained (and improved) its Tyne Valley routes and ceded the North Tyneside services to Go North East which would've helped Percy Main. However, I don't think that was likely when you consider what decent sized depots both Jesmond and Percy Main were even 10 years ago. The decline has been notable and has only been exacerbated by Covid.

I think that’s fair comment, 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing

However, given how Stagecoach has looked to expand its operations with the 317 and 10/11 (as mentioned above), you'd think that they would be most interested in wading in there. After the exit in Guildford and Crewe, Stagecoach may again be well placed to profit from Arriva's decline.

Having been quite a conservative operation since deregulation, Stagecoach Busways has probably been the most quietly successful and expansive operation in Tyne and Wear in recent years. The slow move into North Tyneside is one example, they’ve also (helped by GNE’s constant tinkerig) become even more dominant in the Sunderland northern estates and in Silksworth, and the X24 is another successful move on what was traditionally a GNE corridor with the old X95.

 

[83G/84D]

Having visited Darlington yesterday I noticed that at least one of the Enviro 200MMC's briefly displayed Arriva Yorkshire on the destination screen. It was too brief for a photo but I was wondering if they were originally intended for delivery to Yorkshire?

Looked like the legals might have been changed or at least been done with this is mind.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Having visited Darlington yesterday I noticed that at least one of the Enviro 200MMC's briefly displayed Arriva Yorkshire on the destination screen. It was too brief for a photo but I was wondering if they were originally intended for delivery to Yorkshire?

Looked like the legals might have been changed or at least been done with this is mind.

No - they were originally delivered to Arriva Northumbria at Ashington and Jesmond, hence the change of legals when they were reallocated to Arriva Durham County after only two months.

The Arriva Yorkshire display probably is a hangover from the days when both Arriva NE and AY were under common management and often loaned vehicles

 

[2192]

Arriva Derby 8 & 8A City Centre to Mackworth Estate are being diverted along Ashbourne Road because Slack Lane is closed for three weeks for road works. Residents living near Slack Lane (of which I am one) were told of the road closure at least 2 weeks ago by the Council. Nothing was said about how buses would be running.

I am disappointed that it turns out the buses are running non-stop along Ashbourne Road when there are five stops along it which are suitable for quite a lot of residents who normally use the regular stops that are not being served. I expected there to be paper notices on the stops in Littleton Street giving details of any diversion when I walked back from Sainsbury's supermarket on Sunday afternoon, but there were none.

Did Arriva Derby give any advance warning to anyone of how they were planning to deal with the road closure?

 

[Andy Pacer]

Did Arriva Derby give any advance warning to anyone of how they were planning to deal with the road closure?

They posted on social media on 2nd May.

https://twitter.com/arrivamidlandsE/status/1653420531335479298

From 15 May for 2 weeks between 0930 – 1500 Slack Lane, Derby will be closed. Services 8 & 8A will be unable to serve Uttoxeter Old Road & Slack Lane and divert via Ashbourne Road (A52) – Kingsway (A38) – Raleigh Street – Lyttelton Street - Cheviot Street.

 

[Snex]

The Arriva Yorkshire display probably is a hangover from the days when both Arriva NE and AY were under common management and often loaned vehicles

Aren't they still under common management? I've lost track of who runs what up here lately but wasn't aware of them being split again.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Aren't they still under common management? I've lost track of who runs what up here lately but wasn't aware of them being split again.

There is a facetious (not to you) answer about management. I've lost track as well - the MD (Gavin Peace?) left last year and not certain who's in charge now TBH. Under Nigel Featham, he was Regional MD over North East and Yorks but then Nick Knox became in as NE MD. He retired and was replaced, but he's now gone so I'm not certain how much linkage there is between the two empires.

Compare Companies House and the O license and none of the directors on the former appear on the latter.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I didn’t say it did. I said it might have been better if it had.

Had the "sorting out" been done another way, Arriva could've retained (and improved) its Tyne Valley routes and ceded the North Tyneside services to Go North East which would've helped Percy Main. However, I don't think that was likely when you consider what decent sized depots both Jesmond and Percy Main were even 10 years ago.

know some will say that's a bad deal for Arriva but I'm not sure whether the Berwick and Ashington Expresses would be better than gaining full control of the Coast Road

I get the feeling neither Arriva nor Go were actually that bothered about each other in North Tyneside, other than bits of the Coast Road (the competition growing out of Go and Arriva previously jointly-operating the 308) there wasn’t all that much overlap. Go had the south of the borough, Arriva the north. It was annoying living at Northumberland Park as that was on the cusp of both.

The Coast Road was always an odd one, as it was both a bun fight and not a bun fight. Arriva had the more direct services- they didn’t serve New York, Cobalt or Battle Hill with the 308. I never quite worked out if they were genuinely competing or just playing at it.

Ceding Ashington would also have ceded Morpeth, and those routes are also very lucrative, even more so than the 308. The carve-up probably made sense from Arriva’s point of view- Hexham was a small depot and Ashington wasn’t. Go wasted no time in downgrading Hexham, after all they were really bothered about losing the competition from Prudhoe and points east.

The decline of Percy Main depot and the North Tyneside network generally has been precipitous, Go has gone from investing in a fleet of brand new Solo SRs to nothing in about three or four years. I now genuinely wonder how long Percy Main has left, but that’s for another thread.

No doubt Stagecoach are sitting there laughing and licking their lips.

 

[Snex]

There is a facetious (not to you) answer about management. I've lost track as well - the MD (Gavin Peace?) left last year and not certain who's in charge now TBH. Under Nigel Featham, he was Regional MD over North East and Yorks but then Nick Knox became in as NE MD. He retired and was replaced, but he's now gone so I'm not certain how much linkage there is between the two empires.

Compare Companies House and the O license and none of the directors on the former appear on the latter.

I've just spent the last minutes 20 minutes to try and find something and I'm starting to think that there just isn't anyone in charge. There doesn't seem to be any signs of any MD with the Commercial Director being pretty much the spokesperson.

There does seem to be some connection still though as Ben Scott seems to be the engineering director of both, it's certainly odd.

Ben Scott's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ben-scott-5025986b/?originalSubdomain=uk

I get the feeling neither Arriva nor Go were actually that bothered about each other in North Tyneside, other than bits of the Coast Road (the competition growing out of Go and Arriva previously jointly-operating the 308) there wasn’t all that much overlap. Go had the south of the borough, Arriva the north. It was annoying living at Northumberland Park as that was on the cusp of both.

The Coast Road was always an odd one, as it was both a bun fight and not a bun fight. Arriva had the more direct services- they didn’t serve New York, Cobalt or Battle Hill with the 308. I never quite worked out if they were genuinely competing or just playing at it.

Ceding Ashington would also have ceded Morpeth, and those routes are also very lucrative, even more so than the 308. The carve-up probably made sense from Arriva’s point of view- Hexham was a small depot and Ashington wasn’t. Go wasted no time in downgrading Hexham, after all they were really bothered about losing the competition from Prudhoe and points east.

The decline of Percy Main depot and the North Tyneside network generally has been precipitous, Go has gone from investing in a fleet of brand new Solo SRs to nothing in about three or four years. I now genuinely wonder how long Percy Main has left, but that’s for another thread.

No doubt Stagecoach are sitting there laughing and licking their lips.

Yeah some fair points and honestly can't disagree to be honest. The Coast Road has pretty much sorted itself now though with the new partnership which has finally tidied things up along there. There was definitely petty competition though as at every 'service revision' the 308/309 were pretty much always retimed 2 minutes in front of the other. Sunday's were the worst where they both done it still then but every 30 minutes instead.

Can't disagree about Ashington being much stronger than Hexham though. It was always a bit disconnected under Arriva imo anyway, especially considering GoNorthEast always had Ryton etc with the 10.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've just spent the last minutes 20 minutes to try and find something and I'm starting to think that there just isn't anyone in charge.

It would certainly explain a lot!

 

[WibbleWobble]

I've just spent the last minutes 20 minutes to try and find something and I'm starting to think that there just isn't anyone in charge. There doesn't seem to be any signs of any MD with the Commercial Director being pretty much the spokesperson.

Nigel Featham is the Managing Director, but is also the MD of Go North West.

 

[northern506]

Nigel Featham is the Managing Director, but is also the MD of Go North West.

That's Go North East, not Arriva.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Nigel Featham is the Managing Director, but is also the MD of Go North West.

To reiterate @northern506, Nigel Featham was the Regional MD for Arriva North East and Yorkshire in the mid 2010s and was responsible for the rolling out of the Sapphire, MAX and Frequenta concepts.

He left and ended up at Go North West and then gained Go North East after the departure of Martijn Gilbert.

 

[WibbleWobble]

That's Go North East, not Arriva.

To reiterate @northern506, Nigel Featham was the Regional MD for Arriva North East and Yorkshire in the mid 2010s and was responsible for the rolling out of the Sapphire, MAX and Frequenta concepts.

He left and ended up at Go North West and then gained Go North East after the departure of Martijn Gilbert.

Sorry guys, I because of the discussion about Nigel Featham, I thought there was a cross-over reference to Go North East. Brain fart moment!

 

[2192]

They posted on social media on 2nd May.

https://twitter.com/arrivamidlandsE/status/1653420531335479298

Thanks. 2192

 

[Deerfold]

They posted on social media on 2nd May.

https://twitter.com/arrivamidlandsE/status/1653420531335479298

Disappointing that they didn't mention that it wouldn't stop on that diversionary route (one of my pet hates when routes are diverted is making passengers walk far further than normal to pick up the diverted buses).

 

[Snex]

Disappointing that they didn't mention that it wouldn't stop on that diversionary route (one of my pet hates when routes are diverted is making passengers walk far further than normal to pick up the diverted buses).

I actually don't know the answer to this but wouldn't you have to reregister the route on a temporary timetable to serve extra stops?

 

[bussnapperwm]

I actually don't know the answer to this but wouldn't you have to reregister the route on a temporary timetable to serve extra stops?

That is an interesting question. I know on some National Express West Midlands service amendment submissions which have shown on bustimes it has had amendments to a service with a note saying "NON-CHARGEABLE. Revised route in (area) due to (Street name) road closure.", so maybe it might not be?

 

[Goldfish62]

I actually don't know the answer to this but wouldn't you have to reregister the route on a temporary timetable to serve extra stops?

Changes to registrations are not required for temporary diversions. That's always been the case. You can just divert and serve whichever stops you like on the diversionary route.

 

[Snex]

Changes to registrations are not required for temporary diversions. That's always been the case. You can just divert and serve whichever stops you like on the diversionary route.

Thanks for that, wasn't 100% sure. Thought it might have been a stupid rule that exists saying that you can't serve a bus stop not registered.

 

[Deerfold]

Changes to registrations are not required for temporary diversions. That's always been the case. You can just divert and serve whichever stops you like on the diversionary route.

Yes, earlier this year my local routes were diverted for most of the day on a couple of Sundays for road resurfacing (with different diversions as the area being resurfaced moved on). I needed to go to the station and was pleased to be able to alight at the stop there, which is not usually served - they were serving all 3 stops on the diversion.

 

[RELL6L]

The cutbacks proposed north of Newcastle are shocking but not surprising. They were so unreliable for a while I would be surprised if there were many passengers left. Hopefully Stagecoach will take these on.

Meanwhile I saw somewhere that the 43/44/45 were in line for new electric buses (or was I dreaming it?).

A few new deckers for Walkergate in the Stagecoach order may tie in with some improvements.

Meanwhile in North Wales there have been changes to a number of timetables without any notice being given. At Bangor the 67s are changed, mostly running about 10 minutes later but with a new array of route numbers - the timetable on Arriva's website is useless, the one on BusTimes misses most journeys while Gwynedd's website is OK. The 58 has changed with a few journeys via Penmon. I believe also that the Rhyl-Llandudno 12 has been increased (after the am peak) from every 15 minutes to every 12 minutes - which is good. Also the 5 group has reverted to a proper x20 frequency instead of having two boards 'missing' from the schedule. Improvements! So why not publicise them?

 

[northern506]

The cutbacks proposed north of Newcastle are shocking but not surprising. They were so unreliable for a while I would be surprised if there were many passengers left. Hopefully Stagecoach will take these on.

Meanwhile I saw somewhere that the 43/44/45 were in line for new electric buses (or was I dreaming it?).

A few new deckers for Walkergate in the Stagecoach order may tie in with some improvements.

Meanwhile in North Wales there have been changes to a number of timetables without any notice being given. At Bangor the 67s are changed, mostly running about 10 minutes later but with a new array of route numbers - the timetable on Arriva's website is useless, the one on BusTimes misses most journeys while Gwynedd's website is OK. The 58 has changed with a few journeys via Penmon. I believe also that the Rhyl-Llandudno 12 has been increased (after the am peak) from every 15 minutes to every 12 minutes - which is good. Also the 5 group has reverted to a proper x20 frequency instead of having two boards 'missing' from the schedule. Improvements! So why not publicise them?

The ones they have planned in County Durham and Teesside are even more shocking! Several services withdrawn in full or severely cut.

 

[Llandudno]

The cutbacks proposed north of Newcastle are shocking but not surprising. They were so unreliable for a while I would be surprised if there were many passengers left. Hopefully Stagecoach will take these on.

Meanwhile I saw somewhere that the 43/44/45 were in line for new electric buses (or was I dreaming it?).

A few new deckers for Walkergate in the Stagecoach order may tie in with some improvements.

Meanwhile in North Wales there have been changes to a number of timetables without any notice being given. At Bangor the 67s are changed, mostly running about 10 minutes later but with a new array of route numbers - the timetable on Arriva's website is useless, the one on BusTimes misses most journeys while Gwynedd's website is OK. The 58 has changed with a few journeys via Penmon. I believe also that the Rhyl-Llandudno 12 has been increased (after the am peak) from every 15 minutes to every 12 minutes - which is good. Also the 5 group has reverted to a proper x20 frequency instead of having two boards 'missing' from the schedule. Improvements! So why not publicise them?

In fairness to Arriva Buses Wales there is a lot of social media activity promoting the improved frequency of the 12 route, it doesn’t indicate which route 12 it is (Arriva also run route 12 between Wrexham and Bromborough) referring to though until you click on the link.

Eventually you get to the timetable section on the Arriva website which, of course is totally unintelligible to the vast majority of the population, including me who has been involved in public transport in various forms for 40+ years!

They are also using social media to promote bus travel in north Wales, needless to say there is no mention of the prices of the excellent value day rover tickets on offer which work out cheaper than even buying 2 singles on most journeys over 2 miles!

So all in all some slight improvements to some Arriva bus services in north Wales after a near decade of cuts and retrenchments.

The evening service on route 5 Bangor - Llandudno is poor though with the hourly evening frequency kicking in about an hour too soon and the last buses are too early 2147 Ex Bangor being the last eastbound bus.

The 13 bus timetable Llandudno-Prestatyn via Ysbyty Glan Conwy remains a dogs breakfast..!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The ones they have planned in County Durham and Teesside are even more shocking! Several services withdrawn in full or severely cut.

What are the changes?

 

[Statto]

In fairness to Arriva Buses Wales there is a lot of social media activity promoting the improved frequency of the 12 route, it doesn’t indicate which route 12 it is (Arriva also run route 12 between Wrexham and Bromborough) referring to though until you click on the link.

Eventually you get to the timetable section on the Arriva website which, of course is totally unintelligible to the vast majority of the population, including me who has been involved in public transport in various forms for 40+ years!

They are also using social media to promote bus travel in north Wales, needless to say there is no mention of the prices of the excellent value day rover tickets on offer which work out cheaper than even buying 2 singles on most journeys over 2 miles!

So all in all some slight improvements to some Arriva bus services in north Wales after a near decade of cuts and retrenchments.

The evening service on route 5 Bangor - Llandudno is poor though with the hourly evening frequency kicking in about an hour too soon and the last buses are too early 2147 Ex Bangor being the last eastbound bus.

The 13 bus timetable Llandudno-Prestatyn via Ysbyty Glan Conwy remains a dogs breakfast..!

Don't you mean Wrexham - Brymbo, i don't think Bromborough has ever had a route to Wrexham

The 13 feels like one of those routes Arriva run for the sake of it, frequency is what now every 50 minutes, might as well go to hourly

The 1 Bws day ticket is now better value than the Arriva Wales day ticket, both are the same price but more companies accept the 1 Bws day ticket.

Arriva's website is that awful it must be sponsored by MI5, worst bus operator site on the net.

 

[northern506]

What are the changes?

There's too many to remember off the top of my head - these are all of the ones I've seen so far (I can't really quote a source, but the info is from councillors and other forums)

5A - withdrawn
6 - Withdrawn between Cockfield and West Auckland outside of peak times - morning journey to Barnard Castle withdrawn. Service is also reduced in frequency.
8/8A - withdrawn on Sunday - some journeys will only operate on non school days so the bus can operate school services
22/23 - reduced to hourly each between Sunderland and Peterlee - some journeys will only operate on non college days so the bus can operate East Durham College services. Some evening journeys withdrawn.
43, 48, 49 - evening journeys removed. 48 is also fully withdrawn on a Sunday.
56 - reduced to hourly daytime and evening/Sunday services withdrawn.
X1 (Darlington-Tow Law) - withdrawn - but some journeys to Crook/Tow Law are replaced by service 1.
X21 (Darlington-Peterlee) - withdrawn
X22 - will operate between Stockton and Peterlee only outside of peak times.

I'm not as familiar with the changes outside of County Durham - but don't believe the changes are as significant.

 

[RELL6L]

There's too many to remember off the top of my head - these are all of the ones I've seen so far (I can't really quote a source, but the info is from councillors and other forums)

5A - withdrawn
6 - Withdrawn between Cockfield and West Auckland outside of peak times - morning journey to Barnard Castle withdrawn. Service is also reduced in frequency.
8/8A - withdrawn on Sunday - some journeys will only operate on non school days so the bus can operate school services
22/23 - reduced to hourly each between Sunderland and Peterlee - some journeys will only operate on non college days so the bus can operate East Durham College services. Some evening journeys withdrawn.
43, 48, 49 - evening journeys removed. 48 is also fully withdrawn on a Sunday.
56 - reduced to hourly daytime and evening/Sunday services withdrawn.
X1 (Darlington-Tow Law) - withdrawn - but some journeys to Crook/Tow Law are replaced by service 1.
X21 (Darlington-Peterlee) - withdrawn
X22 - will operate between Stockton and Peterlee only outside of peak times.

I'm not as familiar with the changes outside of County Durham - but don't believe the changes are as significant.

I can understand the 22/23 changes. As I reported on the trips thread not long ago the 22 and 23 depart Peterlee for Durham at almost exactly the same time each half hour and then run in parallel with a Go North East 61 as well between Dalton Park and Sunderland. Almost looks like they are deliberately making it fail.

So there will be no bus between Darlington / Newton Aycliffe and Sedgefield?
Big drop for Cockfield to Bishop Auckland. Outside peak journeys only the Weardale 85 every 2 hours. Not surprised about the 6 journey from Barnard Castle - I looked carefully but there only appeared to be two passengers on it leaving Barnard Castle in the morning - although of course more may have boarded at Staindrop.

Don't you mean Wrexham - Brymbo, i don't think Bromborough has ever had a route to Wrexham

The 13 feels like one of those routes Arriva run for the sake of it, frequency is what now every 50 minutes, might as well go to hourly

The 1 Bws day ticket is now better value than the Arriva Wales day ticket, both are the same price but more companies accept the 1 Bws day ticket.

Arriva's website is that awful it must be sponsored by MI5, worst bus operator site on the net.

The 13 has been every 35 minutes and every 40 minutes in the past. Goodness knows how potential passengers cam possibly remember it! having said that when I used it (once Deganwy to Colwyn Bay, once Rhuddlan to Abergele, both pre-Covid) it did seem to have reasonable loads.

I'll have to accept what has been said on social media about the 12, afraid I'm too old for all that. Why not put it on the website! MI5 seem quite open about some of their activities these days...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's too many to remember off the top of my head - these are all of the ones I've seen so far (I can't really quote a source, but the info is from councillors and other forums)

5A - withdrawn
6 - Withdrawn between Cockfield and West Auckland outside of peak times - morning journey to Barnard Castle withdrawn. Service is also reduced in frequency.
8/8A - withdrawn on Sunday - some journeys will only operate on non school days so the bus can operate school services
22/23 - reduced to hourly each between Sunderland and Peterlee - some journeys will only operate on non college days so the bus can operate East Durham College services. Some evening journeys withdrawn.
43, 48, 49 - evening journeys removed. 48 is also fully withdrawn on a Sunday.
56 - reduced to hourly daytime and evening/Sunday services withdrawn.
X1 (Darlington-Tow Law) - withdrawn - but some journeys to Crook/Tow Law are replaced by service 1.
X21 (Darlington-Peterlee) - withdrawn
X22 - will operate between Stockton and Peterlee only outside of peak times.

I'm not as familiar with the changes outside of County Durham - but don't believe the changes are as significant.

The X1 is a hangover from when Go North East had the temerity to compete with Arriva so that is the one cut that really makes sense.

That the 22/23 has been so poorly planned is simply unbelievable (except it's Arriva) so it's now just going to hourly...until such time as they exit Sunderland completely.

As for axing the run to Cockfield, it shows how much Arriva has managed to damage what was OK's main route (other than the 724).

I had money on the 57A to Hartlepool biting the dust too

 

[SeveerYeliab]

Changes to some Maidstone area routes from July. Withdrawal of some minor town routes, but more headline news is the complete withdrawal of the 334 between Sheppy and Maidstone.

Summary from Arriva below. Possibly the least professional service change announcement I've ever seen!

The current list of changes will come into effect from Sunday 23rd July and are largely made due to low patronage post covid combined with an increase in operational costs or to improve
punctuality/reliability.

Services 8, 55, 79 and 334 will all be withdrawn
These services are being withdrawn due to the combination of a reduction in the concessionary reimbursement paid to us + lower patronage on the services. School bus on 9 to serve Downswood and Madginford and will no longer serve Bearsted (Downswood and Madginford will leave approx. 30mins earlier than current timetable and will have a longer running time after school time pick-up)School bus on 4 to cease, to be replaced by 9
These changes are due to low patronage use and the current reimbursement not being sufficient to sustain two buses running.

Service 5 to no longer serve Sandhurst and terminate at Hawkhurst Moor
This change is predominately down to a Risk decision; buses currently struggle to safely turn the bus on its current line of route. Some early evening journeys on Service 5 will no longer run
This change is due to the low usage of these journeys

Majority of service 12 journeys to no longer serve Headcorn Station forecourt
This change is to reduce the route risk as well as making the route more time efficient

Revised timetable on 71 to improve punctuality
Sunday 71 frequency reduced from 30 mins to hourly
This change is due to the low usage of these journeys. Some school time, peak Service 71 journeys will continue along Malling road to improve reliability

72 new routing in Kings Hill
This new routing will mean parts of the old Kings Hill X1 service will be once again served by a bus.

85 Monday - Saturday frequency reduces from 12 to 15. Sunday reduces 20 to 30
This change is due to the low usage of these journeys

82 Saturday frequency reduces 12 to 15. Sunday from 20 to 30
This change is due to the low usage of these journeys

89 Sunday frequency reduces from 30 to 60
This change is due to the low usage of these journeys

Service 642 no longer serves Langley Heath
This is due to the high level of traffic on a very narrow stretch of road, this currently presents a high risk and therefore needed to be changed.

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk