Arriva Trains Wales reason for fail to stop at Holmes Chapel

[OrangeJuice]

I'm hoping someone can explain a little further possible reasons for this.

Last Thursday (21st) Arriva Trains Wales were putting some additional calls at Sandbach, Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge to cover for the Northern strikes between Crewe and Manchester.

The 10:05 Cardiff to Manchester (12:30 from Crewe) having stopped at Sandbach ran straight through Holmes Chapel failing to stop. The conductor (having spoken to the driver) said the driver was not reminded to stop implying a computer error. The conductor then announced the train had failed to stop due to a "technical error".

On real time trains: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P53575/2018/06/21/advanced

I was wondering if:

- Arriva Wales drivers have 'computers' storing the routes and how likely errors occur with these (rather than a working timetable on paper)
- Whether this would count as a fail to stop on the drivers record (it might not as Arriva Wales don't normally stop)
- Or if its more likely an unfamiliar driver having never stopped before didn't know the breaking point and 'forgot' to stop (I'm using the term loosely)

 

[lammergeier]

Sounds like a special stop order wasn't issued or communicated properly. It does happen, I've had it a few times where platform staff for one reason or another haven't handed over a stop order ticket and I've been made aware by another means.

I think ATW have Driver Advisory Service (DAS) installed which is useful for calling patterns, but it is not updated in real time so a stop order isn't shown, it will only show the next booked calling point.

Whether or not it goes on their record depends really on their local management and if they decide the driver should have known about it but forgot, or whether they were completely unaware in which case it would be unlikely to be added.

 

[43096]

- Or if its more likely an unfamiliar driver having never stopped before didn't know the breaking point and 'forgot' to stop (I'm using the term loosely)

If he didn't know (or missed) the braking point then what often happens is you feel the brakes come on, then when the driver realises the train won't stop at the platform, brakes release again and you carry on. I've had that on a Reading-Waterloo service at Putney (on a Saturday with engineering works as they don't normally stop there) and the brakes came off as we went through. Train met by man with laptop at Waterloo for an OTMR download as part of the follow-up.

 

[sw1ller]

When Northern strikes ATW stop at additional places. There are no computers but there is a DAS system which is 99% accurate. The drivers should be checking their docket and speaking to the guard to confirm stopping patterns before the journey begins. They should NOT be relying on the DAS as this is not what the system is designed for (it’s for fuel saving). It’s simply a fail to call and it’s completely the drivers fault.

 

[lammergeier]

When Northern strikes ATW stop at additional places. There are no computers but there is a DAS system which is 99% accurate. The drivers should be checking their docket and speaking to the guard to confirm stopping patterns before the journey begins. They should NOT be relying on the DAS as this is not what the system is designed for (it’s for fuel saving). It’s simply a fail to call and it’s completely the drivers fault.

As I said above, DAS is not updated with special stop orders.
It is not "completely the drivers fault" if they had not been made aware of the special stop order.

 

[Dai Corner]

As I said above, DAS is not updated with special stop orders.
It is not "completely the drivers fault" if they had not been made aware of the special stop order.

Is it likely that the driver was made aware of the Sandbach stop but not the Holmes Chapel one?

 

[lammergeier]

Is it likely that the driver was made aware of the Sandbach stop but not the Holmes Chapel one?

It's entirely possible, might have been written down incorrectly, station staff may have been given the wrong information to pass on etc. It's just as likely that they were told about one and not the other than the driver remembered to stop at one but not the other!

 

[sw1ller]

As I said above, DAS is not updated with special stop orders.
It is not "completely the drivers fault" if they had not been made aware of the special stop order.

DAS is updated with these stops as they are planned. They are not special stop orders.

 

[Starmill]

It is not "completely the drivers fault" if they had not been made aware of the special stop order.

Why do you keep mentioning Special Stop Orders please? I'm not sure what they have to do with this thread?

 

[adrock1976]

If he didn't know (or missed) the braking point then what often happens is you feel the brakes come on, then when the driver realises the train won't stop at the platform, brakes release again and you carry on. I've had that on a Reading-Waterloo service at Putney (on a Saturday with engineering works as they don't normally stop there) and the brakes came off as we went through. Train met by man with laptop at Waterloo for an OTMR download as part of the follow-up.

Could this be translated please?

It is forum policy not to use abbreviations, acronyms, or jargon without first saying what they mean.

 

[bnsf734]

If a train needs to stop additionally at extra stations then a Special Stop Order needs to be issued and communicated with the train crew. If the Special Stop Order did not mention Holmes Chapel (in error?) that is a reason why the train failed to stop.

A friend of mine was travelling St Pancras to Leicester in the 1980s with the driver. The Bedford suburban train crews were on strike and this Midland Main Line train was making additional calls listed on a Special Stop Order handed to the driver. Hendon was accidentally missed off the order and so the train did not make the stop. Quite a few people had to get off at the next station and make their own way back.

 

[greaterwest]

Since it's a variation to the schedule, surely it's not a "Special Stop Order" as defined by several posters in this thread? Holmes Chapel would have been printed as such on the driver's and guard's schedule card.

 

[Starmill]

If a train needs to stop additionally at extra stations then a Special Stop Order needs to be issued and communicated with the train crew. If the Special Stop Order did not mention Holmes Chapel (in error?) that is a reason why the train failed to stop.

Again, I'm sure this is true but is it really relevant to this thread?

 

[Kneedown]

Holmes Chapel would have been printed as such on the driver's and guard's schedule card.

Only if Holmes Chapel was input as a stop on the system that prints the diagrams.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Again, I'm sure this is true but is it really relevant to this thread?

Yes
The OP was asking why a train failed to call at a station, one possible reason could be that a supplementary/special stop order hasn’t been issued for a particular stop, in this case, Holmes Chapel, which is what bnsf734 was postulating.
Other reasons could include the driver’s schedule card not being updated to include the additional stop, incorrect stop orders being given to the driver, or, should supplementary stop orders be transmitted electronically in that neck of the woods, one of the multitude of possible problems that could arise with that method. To describe it as “completely the drivers fault” as someone did above, without knowing the facts, is not strictly correct.

Could this be translated please?.

On Train Monitoring Recorder. Does what it says on the tin.

 

[sw1ller]

Since it's a variation to the schedule, surely it's not a "Special Stop Order" as defined by several posters in this thread? Holmes Chapel would have been printed as such on the driver's and guard's schedule card.

This is exactly right. Holmes Chapel WOULD be on the drivers docket - it is NOT a special stop order. It would have been planned days in advance and there would be posters in the late notice cabinet (drivers responsibility to check every day) and there would be additional info for braking areas usually used in good weather conditions. Holms chapel would also be in a lager font and in blue on the docket too. Everything is done so the driver doesn’t miss the stop. But it still happens and it happens too often. This is 100% driver error. Simple as that.

 

[bionic]

Schedule card printed incorrectly? Happens from time to time with short term diagrams. Driver has to go with what's on their schedule unless told otherwise. Same goes for different timings on crew schedules to what's being advertised on platforms.

 

[bionic]

This is exactly right. Holmes Chapel WOULD be on the drivers docket - it is NOT a special stop order. It would have been planned days in advance and there would be posters in the late notice cabinet (drivers responsibility to check every day) and there would be additional info for braking areas usually used in good weather conditions. Holms chapel would also be in a lager font and in blue on the docket too. Everything is done so the driver doesn’t miss the stop. But it still happens and it happens too often. This is 100% driver error. Simple as that.

None of the above happens at my TOC when diagrams are amended. You turn up, pick up your diagram and if there's anything unusual about it it's down to you to notice. No blue ink, no larger font, nothing highlighted. I don't work for ATW so can't comment on what they do but at my TOC this kind of thing is completely unheard of! I agree that if it was on the schedule then it's down to the driver but I've never heard of stations highlighted in blue etc. Sounds like a good idea though!

 

[Dai Corner]

I'm not sure we ought to be discussing an individual's actions in this way but as the train (and therefore driver)has been identified already here's a link to RTT showing the stop was scheduled.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P53575/2018/06/21/advanced

 

[LordCreed]

None of the above happens at my TOC when diagrams are amended. You turn up, pick up your diagram and if there's anything unusual about it it's down to you to notice. No blue ink, no larger font, nothing highlighted. I don't work for ATW so can't comment on what they do but at my TOC this kind of thing is completely unheard of! I agree that if it was on the schedule then it's down to the driver but I've never heard of stations highlighted in blue etc. Sounds like a good idea though!

Exactly the same here, our schedule cards have no highlighting for changes in the slightest.

Would this stop definitely be on the schedule card? Even if it's a variation, it might have missed the schedule card print (which is done a few days in advance) so has to be then arranged by control in the form of a SSO

 

[sw1ller]

Exactly the same here, our schedule cards have no highlighting for changes in the slightest.

Would this stop definitely be on the schedule card? Even if it's a variation, it might have missed the schedule card print (which is done a few days in advance) so has to be then arranged by control in the form of a SSO

It’s quite a major thing to be fair, the managers are all over it. Like I said, this isn’t an isolated incident. When northern are on strike we always do these stops and the managers/planner make a big effort to highlight the extra stops.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’ve seen diagrams for South West Trains when making an additions stop at Wimbledon for the tennis.

The picture attached is available on twitter and shows Please note, this train calls additionally at Wimbledon in bold capital letters.

Its just an example of how different TOCs (train operating companies) can highlight scheduled extra calls.

 

[43096]

Could this be translated please?

It is forum policy not to use abbreviations, acronyms, or jargon without first saying what they mean.

On Train Monitoring Recorder. The railway equivalent of an aircraft’s “black box”.