Arriva Trains Wales Strike

[Rhondda Rudie]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11752786

 

[ainsworth74]

You do realise that this article relates to strike action from last November right?

 

[Intermodal]

So there will be no ATW services this friday?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You do realise that this article relates to strike action from last November right?

Someone rushed to post the news before anyone else!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although it does seem they will be striking on friday the 4th of Feb, as detailed in this recent news posting.

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/260111IndustrialAction/

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

You do realise that this article relates to strike action from last November right?

Thanks.

Sorry folks,wrong link.

 

[merlodlliw]

here is one with the proper date.

Train drivers strike to hit rugby
(UKPA) – 5 hours ago 26/1/11
Drivers on Arriva Trains Wales are to strike on the day Wales play England in the Six Nations rugby union competition.
Members of the Rail Maritime and Transport union will walk out for 24 hours on February 4 in a long-running dispute over pay and conditions.
The workers went on strike on December 27 after earlier voting strongly in favour of industrial action.
RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said: "RMT has rejected a further unacceptable offer from the company that would have left our members with an effective pay cut and which was loaded with strings.
"We have held a full consultation with our members and they are clear that the current position of Arriva Trains Wales does not go far enough to protect their standard of living with inflation roaring ahead to 5% and VAT and other core costs being jacked up as working people are told to pay the price for the bankers' crisis.
"Our members have already shown their determination to win a decent settlement with a rock-solid strike, and it is now for the company to recognise their anger and negotiate a just deal that delivers fair reward and a decent work/life balance.
"It is our members' hard work that creates Arriva's profits and it is time that the company paid heed to the needs of its workforce rather than just the demands of shareholders."
Wales play England at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff on the evening of February 4.
The Press Association. ends

More of a political rant, I note the apology to the suffering passengers, I don't think

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Aaah brilliant The Train Drivers Union want to shaft their fellow workers again none of whom have even been offered a 12% increase this year. A large chunk of ATW's fare increase this January was to go toward paying for it. Hard suffering commuters wont get extra carriages as the one person on the train guaranteed a seat - the driver gets an inflationary wage settlement.Lets face facts most people outside of London would love to have a £36 K per annum job with the offer of it going up to just under £40K.

I'm all for people being paid a decent living wage but train drivers on £36K are not exactly starting at the bottom of the pile- look what platform staff and conductors get. Why should train drivers be insulated from the real world? Whats so special abut them compared to say nurses?

Any RMT/ ASLEF members out there think its justified with 1000's of public sector workers (many of whom pay for tickets which fund your wages) due to loss their jobs this year and living standards dropping for most. Yes I know the argument about TOC profit taking, managerial pay/bonuses but RMT/ASLEF seem to want to join the "trough club" at everyone else s expense.

 

[Donny Dave]

Here we go again. Although we don't know all the particulars of the deal, a 12% rise over 2 years is not an effective pay cut!

Also, the current rate of inflation is 3.7%, not 5% as Bob Crow states ....

Anyway, is it me, or are unions in general starting to get a bit stupid with their demands?

The above ATW proposal has been rejected, plus workers at the Heinz factory have rejected a minimum of 7% over 2 years plus extras!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Aaah brilliant The Train Drivers Union want to shaft their fellow workers again none of whom have even been offered a 12% increase this year. A large chunk of ATW's fare increase this January was to go toward paying for it. Hard suffering commuters wont get extra carriages as the one person on the train guaranteed a seat - the driver gets an inflationary wage settlement.Lets face facts most people outside of London would love to have a £36 K per annum job with the offer of it going up to just under £40K.

I'm all for people being paid a decent living wage but train drivers on £36K are not exactly starting at the bottom of the pile- look what platform staff and conductors get. Why should train drivers be insulated from the real world? Whats so special abut them compared to say nurses?

Any RMT/ ASLEF members out there think its justified with 1000's of public sector workers (many of whom pay for tickets which fund your wages) due to loss their jobs this year and living standards dropping for most. Yes I know the argument about TOC profit taking, managerial pay/bonuses but RMT/ASLEF seem to want to join the "trough club" at everyone else s expense.

Train Drivers are (usually overpaid) (in my opinion) but as a guard that gets approx 14k less than the average driver I do wonder how much money Drivers want, btw I hate this I pay your wages cack as to be honest we all do through taxation as most lines are heavily subsidised, there are 2 people on the avg train, both are safety crritical, only one has 2 automated safety systems if they foul up, guards get "9" on the buzzer if they are getting beaten up....f'in g8 isn't it

 

[CosherB]

Bob Crow is the worst thing for today's rail. He represents everything that was wrong with BR, and he does it for his own ends at the expense of the greater railway in this country.

 

[Bevan Price]

I suggest that Mr Crow's members need to recall what happened to the UK mining industry after Mr Scargill was in charge of the NUM. OK, the cost of living is increasing, everyone would like higher pay, but if you get too greedy, you may find there are a lot fewer jobs on the railway. Which is better - a secure job with less pay than you would like, or no job & no pay ?

Bevan

 

[313103]

I suggest that Mr Crow's members need to recall what happened to the UK mining industry after Mr Scargill was in charge of the NUM. OK, the cost of living is increasing, everyone would like higher pay, but if you get too greedy, you may find there are a lot fewer jobs on the railway. Which is better - a secure job with less pay than you would like, or no job & no pay ?

Bevan

I did start to reply on this comment, but thought it would be a wasted exercise, as i would only be shot down in flames and castigated at the same time. So i will let you continue with your fantasies, i mean why let facts get in the way of a good story.
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Bob Crow is the worst thing for today's rail. He represents everything that was wrong with BR, and he does it for his own ends at the expense of the greater railway in this country.

Proof my dear friend on both parts of your argument would be a good start. Then i see if i can be rational when i respond.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

I did start to reply on this comment, but thought it would be a wasted exercise, as i would only be shot down in flames and castigated at the same time. So i will let you continue with your fantasies, i mean why let facts get in the way of a good story.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Proof my dear friend on both parts of your argument would be a good start. Then i see if i can be rational when i respond.

Ah some common sense at last.Please forgive The Captain.I'll never manage to get my head round the idea of a railway enthusiast being a tory.It's like Obama supporting the KKK.

 

[CosherB]

Proof my dear friend on both parts of your argument would be a good start. Then i see if i can be rational when i respond.

No. How about you being rational in responding to me, then I to you. You know, the way humans have communicated for millenea. Not something Bob Crow, a dinosaur, would be familiar with.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I did start to reply on this comment, but thought it would be a wasted exercise, as i would only be shot down in flames and castigated at the same time. So i will let you continue with your fantasies, i mean why let facts get in the way of a good story.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Proof my dear friend on both parts of your argument would be a good start. Then i see if i can be rational when i respond.

A driver into a London terminus can maybe think he/she is hard done by the suits they carry to the city but not someone on mid £30k taking someone on £15K into a call center job in Cardiff from the Rhondda. Socialism has take into account reality not pet theorys- the same goes for the right wing.

 

[Pumbaa]

Train Drivers are (usually overpaid) (in my opinion) but as a guard that gets approx 14k less than the average driver I do wonder how much money Drivers want, btw I hate this I pay your wages cack as to be honest we all do through taxation as most lines are heavily subsidised, there are 2 people on the avg train, both are safety crritical, only one has 2 automated safety systems if they foul up, guards get "9" on the buzzer if they are getting beaten up....f'in g8 isn't it

Agreed. I do feel most drivers are overpaid, but its the private TOCs fault. Poaching staff to avoid training costs is blatantly going to end in a crush. I also feel Guards and most railway staff should be paid more to close the gap, as I don't see drivers taking a slash in pay.

Also be aware ATW drivers are among the lowest paid in the land (if not the lowest?) so I do have some sympathy.

HOWEVER - please some respect from RMT and Crow; everyone else is taking a freeze or a cut, don't be so priggish by demanding something as ridiculous as 12%.

 

[CosherB]

Proof my dear friend on both parts of your argument would be a good start. Then i see if i can be rational when i respond.

No. How about you being rational in responding to me, then I to you. You know, the way humans have communicated for millennia. Not something Bob Crow, a dinosaur, would be familiar with.

 

[313103]

Here we go again. Although we don't know all the particulars of the deal, a 12% rise over 2 years is not an effective pay cut!

Also, the current rate of inflation is 3.7%, not 5% as Bob Crow states ....

Anyway, is it me, or are unions in general starting to get a bit stupid with their demands?

The above ATW proposal has been rejected, plus workers at the Heinz factory have rejected a minimum of 7% over 2 years plus extras!

Oh yes here we go again indeed, more slagging off of unions, more anti union diatribe.

First my dear friend when said alone 12% does sound good and i am sure that if ATW offered its employees a STRAIGHT 12% with no strings attached, it would be accepted out of hand, however as you know and i know with the strings that ATW have foisted onto to this pay deal it is in fact a pay cut.

Again we can quote figures all day to the cows come home, you have stated the CPI figure of 3.7% which is indeed the Governments preferred measure of inflation. Mr Crow has used the RPI which is normally used for pay negotiations this currently stands at 4.8%. Of course the government would want to use the CPI figure because it is lower then the RPI rate.

With regard the unions being stupid with their demands, i think that if you understand how a union works it is the members of the union that demand the union to get them the best and often at times the impossible.

The rejections again are made by members of the union and not by the General Secretarys of such groups, they only act on the decisions made by the members.

 

[ainsworth74]

First my dear friend when said alone 12% does sound good and i am sure that if ATW offered its employees a STRAIGHT 12% with no strings attached, it would be accepted out of hand, however as you know and i know with the strings that ATW have foisted onto to this pay deal it is in fact a pay cut.

What strings? Honest question no ulterior motive.

 

[313103]

. I also feel Guards and most railway staff should be paid more to close the gap

I also feel the same but it aint going to happen anytime soon, plus Captain Speaking would have something to say on this.

I actually think that all railway staff should accept a 25% cut in salary, a increase in the working week to 60 hours, no pnbs, no sick pay, no annual leave entitlement, i also think the companies should introduce Automatic Operarted trains where you do not need a driver or a Guard, make everyone pay for their tickets online so we can shut the booking offices and therefore saving additional costs, rely on everyone being honest and do away with Ticket collectors. There we now have a railway utopia, but even some on here would think thats not going far enough.

Actually quite interesting that no one has mentioned the RMTs role in trying to protect its members on Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway, who after Friday will have no job to go to, but i suppose that is ok. This company has just been awarded the highest accolade in Customer service satisfaction and once again comes on top at 96%. However the German STATE owned company that runs WSMR has deccreed that the plug is pulled.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

A driver into a London terminus can maybe think he/she is hard done by the suits they carry to the city but not someone on mid £30k taking someone on £15K into a call center job in Cardiff from the Rhondda. Socialism has take into account reality not pet theorys- the same goes for the right wing.

As someone who lives in the Rhondda and the father of someone who works in a call centre I feel qualified to answer your question.You're falling into the old trap of thinking that because people are criminally underpaid in other professions (my other daughter working in an old peoples' home being a case in point) means that workers who earn more are somehow not entitled to a decent pay rise.The other mistake people are making on this thread is to believe the headline figure of 12% released by ATW.While I can't go into detail I can assure members that,taking into account the strings attached,the offer will fall well short of inflation over the period of July 2010 to July 2012 thus representing a pay cut in real terms.

 

[Tom B]

I actually think that all railway staff should accept a 25% cut in salary, a increase in the working week to 60 hours, no pnbs, no sick pay, no annual leave entitlement, i also think the companies should introduce Automatic Operarted trains where you do not need a driver or a Guard, make everyone pay for their tickets online so we can shut the booking offices and therefore saving additional costs, rely on everyone being honest and do away with Ticket collectors. There we now have a railway utopia, but even some on here would think thats not going far enough.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that, but the fact is that drivers aren't paid badly, are (I believe) on a 35 hour week, a generous amount of A/L, generous rest breaks plus extra ones if they request a PNB - etc.

At a time when an awful lot of people are happy with a small pay increase, rather than a pay cut, to keep on asking for yet more is somewhat self-centred. I actually feel hard-liners like Crow are doing the union movement a lot of damage - reinforcing a 1970s stereotype. He has openly said he does not care about the disruption he causes passengers - those passengers who ultimately pay his members (and => his) wages.

I can imagine there being really badly off people - minimum wage, long hours etc - being affected through not getting to work and losing a day's pay. I'm sure he'll care about them - not.

 

[313103]

What strings? Honest question no ulterior motive.

Sorry Ainsworth i have had a look on the website and the union just mentions that strings are attached. I will see if i can find more detailed stuff.

 

[CosherB]

Rail pay is pretty good (exceptionally so for drivers) and so is job security. If anyone should go on strike, it shouldn't be rail workers. There are any number of workers in far, far worse positions than them.

How about those minimum-wage call centre workers in Cardiff? Do rail workers ever stop to think why those workers far worse off than them don't strike?

Something to do with those people not living in the cossetted protected world of the unionised rail worker, I should think. In other words, like just about everyone else, those call centre workers are in the real world. Which can be a bit cruel and nasty. Even more so when they see well paid and secure workers striking for more money.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Rail pay is pretty good (exceptionally so for drivers) and so is job security. If anyone should go on strike, it shouldn't be rail workers. There are any number of workers in far, far worse positions than them.

How about those minimum-wage call centre workers in Cardiff? Do rail workers ever stop to think why those workers far worse off than them don't strike?

Something to do with those people not living in the cossetted protected world of the unionised rail worker, I should think. In other words, like just about everyone else, those call centre workers are in the real world. Which can be a bit cruel and nasty. Even more so when they see well paid and secure workers striking for more money.

Captain get over yourself you plonk, you can not compare different industries regarding wages! a call centre worker does a completely different job to saya driver/guard platform staff etc, for a start if they make a mistake people don't tend to get seriously injured or dead, I have worked in a call centre and yes its a crap and depressing job, so I attempted to get a better one (which I did,obviously) your oipinion is your own, if only they actually were worthwhile and not the ramblings of someone who obviously is so self opinionated that they will never listen to arguments from both sides, your goal on forums seems to be how many people you can wind up, maybe you should try that in a pub where there is no anonyminity and if you do upset someone you tend to get a bit more than a few people telling you what I have just said!

 

[CosherB]

Captain get over yourself you plonk,

Northern Guard, you are quite free with the personal insults, aren't you? I bet you are a real star in your people-facing role of train guard.

The thing about insults is if you chuck them, you will receive them. You demonstrate your ignorance with every post. The clincher is the veiled threat of physical violence in your post, in a face-to-face discussion, to those who express views with which you disagree. It seems that if you can't offer reasoned argument, how about a bunch of fives instead? What a civilised chap you must be! :roll:

So you've said in your post how very much you think I'm wrong. But you have offered absolutely no argument as WHY I am wrong!

I wonder why?

 

[merlodlliw]

I have read all the threads on this,I am well used to the quid pro que, for 12% I would expect strings attached, if ATW management have not applied conditions
for 12% they are not doing their job,

In my day as a FOC, strike action was the last resort, ah well looks like the arriva bus on Friday.

Will any ATW Driver on RF please supply the conditions, you must have voted on them.

 

[tirphil]

Year 1
Basic rate increase of 3.7%
Addl payment of 0.8% for introduction of cross cover agreement
Addl payment of 2.5% for committed sundays (No commitment at present)
Sunday booking on payment to be abolished. Sunday pay to be time and a quarter. (At present sunday pay is flat rate plus the booking on payment)

Year 2
4.0% or May 2011 RPI whichever is the greater.

The above has not been voted on by ASLEF members yet. ATW Company council has advised acceptance.

 

[merlodlliw]

Year 1
Basic rate increase of 3.7%
Addl payment of 0.8% for introduction of cross cover agreement
Addl payment of 2.5% for committed sundays (No commitment at present)
Sunday booking on payment to be abolished. Sunday pay to be time and a quarter. (At present sunday pay is flat rate plus the booking on payment)

Year 2
4.0% or May 2011 RPI whichever is the greater.

The above has not been voted on by ASLEF members yet. ATW Company council has advised acceptance.

At last ATW are tackling this Sunday working, thanks for the info.

and welcome to RF Tirphil

Bob

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern Guard, you are quite free with the personal insults, aren't you? I bet you are a real star in your people-facing role of train guard.

The thing about insults is if you chuck them, you will receive them. You demonstrate your ignorance with every post. The clincher is the veiled threat of physical violence in your post, in a face-to-face discussion, to those who express views with which you disagree. It seems that if you can't offer reasoned argument, how about a bunch of fives instead? What a civilised chap you must be! :roll:

So you've said in your post how very much you think I'm wrong. But you have offered absolutely no argument as WHY I am wrong!

I wonder why?

there was no threats whatsoever I just pointed out that if you spoke to people face to face the way you speak to people here chances are you probably get a different result than people just arguing with you as you come across as very arrogant and argumentative no matter what the subject matter is!

My apologies to the mod's but there is only so much baiting people can read and Captain is well......just read his comments through out the threads nothing constructive just pure baiting

 

[Donny Dave]

Oh yes here we go again indeed, more slagging off of unions, more anti union diatribe.

Nothing of the sort, some questions that I think need answering.

First my dear friend when said alone 12% does sound good and i am sure that if ATW offered its employees a STRAIGHT 12% with no strings attached, it would be accepted out of hand, however as you know and i know with the strings that ATW have foisted onto to this pay deal it is in fact a pay cut.

As I said in my original post, we don't know the details of the offer. Hell, if my union (USDAW) negotiated a 12% rise over 2 years, we wouldn't reject it, we would just try to bargain with the management to try to get a deal everyone is happy with.

Again we can quote figures all day to the cows come home, you have stated the CPI figure of 3.7% which is indeed the Governments preferred measure of inflation. Mr Crow has used the RPI which is normally used for pay negotiations this currently stands at 4.8%. Of course the government would want to use the CPI figure because it is lower then the RPI rate.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only person checking figures. However, I do believe it is fairer to use the CPI rate, as over the past couple of years, it has been more stable than the RPI, as shown here.

With regard the unions being stupid with their demands, i think that if you understand how a union works it is the members of the union that demand the union to get them the best and often at times the impossible.

The rejections again are made by members of the union and not by the General Secretarys of such groups, they only act on the decisions made by the members.

As I said above, I am a member of a union, and that union is USDAW. However, Everyone in our warehouse recognise the fact that where we work is struggling, so while we ask Usdaw to get the best they can for us through a process of give and take.

Personally, I've no objections to unions trying to get the best they can, it's just that some unions (and the members that instruct them) are too militant, or make outrageous demands.