"As Advertised" or "See Restrictions"

[bnm]

Is it acceptable (or indeed legally enforceable) to Penalty Fare, Excess, require purchase of an Anytime ticket or issue an Unpaid Fare Notice to a passenger travelling on a ticket which has the validity "As Advertised or "See Restrictions" printed on it when those restrictions prevent travel with a particular TOC.

I ask as someone who wanted to use GroupSave on a journey from Bristol Temple Meads to Taunton.

I know that CrossCountry say they do not accept GroupSave tickets, (having their own group travel fares instead) but the NRCoC state:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

Also the NFM does not make a destinction between GroupSave and CDRs - they share the same validity code.

If I wasn't in the know regarding AXC's non-acceptance (i.e not enquiring or not looking on AXC's website) would ignorance of AXC's policy and reference to the NRCoC or NFM be an acceptable excuse to board one of their services?

 

[First class]

The ticket shows their is a possible prohibition or restriction but does not specify what one(s).

Although I believe you may be technically correct with regard to the NRCoC, you are effectively aware that it is not valid, and you seem quite happy to travel on a train knowing your ticket is not valid or accepted by that TOC.

I suspect that the most likely course of action will be a new ticket or UFN as the groupsave is effectively 'toc specific' and such tickets cannot be excessed.
Even if you do appeal/complain, I doubt you'll get far.

You can't win - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but ignorance is no excuse!

 

[yorkie]

Penalty fares can not be issued on TOC-specific tickets, so a PF can never be issued. So the question is whether or not the ticket can be excessed or a new ticket issued.

If a TOC-specific ticket is held, then it shouldn't be excessed and a new ticket should be issued.

If a ticket does not specify that it is TOC-specific then it should be accepted on any TOC, as defined in NCoC, which states that any such restriction must be shown on the ticket.

If a TOC wishes to limit GroupSave to a particular TOC then they can should change the route to make the ticket TOC specific. If they do not do that, that is their problem, not the customers.

 

[First class]

Penalty fares can not be issued on TOC-specific tickets, so a PF can never be issued. So the question is whether or not the ticket can be excessed or a new ticket issued.

If a TOC-specific ticket is held, then it shouldn't be excessed and a new ticket should be issued.

If a ticket does not specify that it is TOC-specific then it should be accepted on any TOC, as defined in NCoC, which states that any such restriction must be shown on the ticket.

If a TOC wishes to limit GroupSave to a particular TOC then they can should change the route to make the ticket TOC specific. If they do not do that, that is their problem, not the customers.

Maybe so, but for a refund of an excess/new ticket, I imagine this would be a very long sage involving absolutely everyone.

 

[yorkie]

The ticket shows their is a possible prohibition or restriction but does not specify what one(s).

The text that appears on the ticket is the same as a non-discounted ticket and the details have to be obtained by asking at the ticket office or from a program like Avantix Traveller.

The details are:

Restriction : B1
OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train except those
timed to depart Mondays to
Fridays before 0930

RETURN TRAVEL
By any train
CDS/CDR/FCR/GE1/SVH/1DR/1DT/
FCD OFF-PEAK DAY

ODT/OTF OFF-PEAK DAY
TRAVELCARD

GR3/GR4 GROUPSAVE DAY

FTC FAMILY TRAVELCARD

Ticket Name: Off-Peak Day
Code - CDS/SVH
Class - STANDARD
Single/Return - SINGLE
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
(SEE NOTE 1)
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Journey: YES
Pre-Booking Req: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Discounts:
Child - YES
Railcard - YES
Group - YES
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

Ticket Name: Off-Peak Day
Code - CDR/1DR/1DT
Class - STANDARD
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
(SEE NOTE 1)
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES
Pre-Booking Req: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Discounts:
Child - YES
Railcard - YES
Group - YES
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

Ticket: Off-Peak Day
Travelcard
Code - ODT
Class - STANDARD
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
(For Day/Time see Note 1)
Return Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
(see Note 1)
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES
(see Note 5)
Pre-Booking Req: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Discounts:
Child - YES
Railcard - YES
Group - NO
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

Ticket:______Family Travelcard
Code - FTC
Class - STANDARD
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
(For Day/Time see Note 1)
Return Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
(see Note 1)
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES
(see Note 1)
Pre-Booking Req: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Discounts:
Child - YES
Railcard - NO
Group - NO
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

Ticket: Off-Peak Day
Code - FCR/GE1/FCD
Class - FIRST
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
(see Note 1)
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES
Pre-Booking Req: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Discounts:
Child - YES
Railcard - YES
Group - YES
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

Ticket: Off-Peak Day
Travelcard
Code - OTF
Class - FIRST
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
For Day/Time see Note 1)
Return Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES
(see Note 1)
Pre-Booking Req: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Discounts:
Child - YES
Railcard - YES
Group - NO
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

Ticket: GroupSave Day
Code - GR3/GR4
Class - STANDARD
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward Validity:
Day - DATE ON TICKET
(see Note 1)
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES
(see Note 5)
Pre-Booking Req: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Discounts:
Child - NO
Railcard - NO
Group - NO
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

NOTES:
Off-Peak Day Singles and
Returns, GroupSave Day
Returns: Valid for travel on
the date shown on the ticket
and until 0230 the following
day. If it is not possible to
complete the journey before
this time, travel is allowed
until 1200 the day after
travel - but no further break
of journey is allowed.

Off-Peak Day Travelcards
(First and Standard) and
Family Travelcards:
Valid for travel throughout
the selected London Fare Zones
from 0930 Mondays to Fridays
(0001 Saturdays, Sundays and
Public Holidays) on the day of
validity and for any journey
that starts before 0430 on the
following day.

1. See also 'London' section
'Easements' section and
relevant customer information
leaflets for further details.
Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

2. Time restrictions are
indicated by a restriction
shown against the ticket's
validity code.

3. Only Senior, Disabled
Persons & HM Forces Railcards
discounts are offered with
First Class fares.

4. GroupSave Day is a Day
Return ticket for 3 (GR3) or
4 (GR4) people travelling
together throughout, which
normally (but not always) has
the same time restrictions as
the respective CDR Off-Peak
Day Return.

5. Break of journey is
permitted on both outward and
return portions of Off-Peak
Day and GroupSave Day tickets
unless otherwise indicated by
a restriction shown against
the ticket's_validity code.

6. The SVH is only available
for purchase online and must
be bought as part of a Return.

How much of that information is actually passed to the customer is questionable given that the queue would be rather long by the time the whole text was read out, much of which is irrelevant anyway. I see nothing that states it is not valid on XC.

Although I believe you may be technically correct with regard to the NRCoC,

Glad you agree he is correct.

you are effectively aware that it is not valid, and you seem quite happy to travel on a train knowing your ticket is not valid or accepted by that TOC.

Erm, you just said he is correct - therefore it is valid. How can you backtrack in the next sentence?

I suspect that the most likely course of action will be a new ticket or UFN as the groupsave is effectively 'toc specific' and such tickets cannot be excessed.
Even if you do appeal/complain, I doubt you'll get far.

I'm not so sure. IANAL but I think that if it this was taken far, then it would succeed. Are you saying that a TOC can break the NCoC and passengers have to accept that? This is quite a shocking claim.

You can't win - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but ignorance is no excuse!

Ah good, you admit that the ignorance of staff in your company is no excuse for their behaviour in issuing Anytime fares when Off Peak fares are valid, which is a clear and serious breach of the Ticketing Settlement Agreement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe so, but for a refund of an excess/new ticket, I imagine this would be a very long sage involving absolutely everyone.

If the customer does not pay, then it would be very interesting to see the TOC try to take it to court.

"Yes, we know that we broke the conditions of carriage, your honour, but don't you know we're a train company? we can do what we want your honour"

"Yes, your honour, the conditions of the ticket make no mention of them not being accepted on our trains, but we make up our own rules"

I am not sure that argument would get far.

 

[bnm]

I wonder if a TOC could invoke Conditon 12 of the NRCoC in their defence?

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:
(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket); or
(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

The title of the conditon says Restriction on when you can travel, yet the body of the text goes on to say ".... and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use...."

Couldn't find anything published by FGW (i.e. the train company I am apparently entitled to use) saying I can't travel with XC.

 

[yorkie]

Condition 12 is clearly referring to the restrictions on time, days etc as defined in the restriction code. In this case the restriction code is 'B1' and the text associated with this restriction code is pasted above (Source: Avantix Traveller NFM05).