ASLEF Strike LNER & Northern 1st March

[800001]

Indeed we will.....it gets discussed a lot in the messrooms. 2 years backdated no strings would bring an end to this.


You seem to be struggling with the basic facts......a strike has been called by ASLEF leadership. This means that no Northern trains ( or LNER ) will actually run on the strike day. Passengers will have to make alternative arrangements if they have to travel on that day. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

LNER trains will run on the strike day, how ever it’s normally about 20% of services, starting later and finishing earlier.

 

[Bantamzen]

You seem to be struggling with the basic facts......a strike has been called by ASLEF leadership. This means that no Northern trains ( or LNER ) will actually run on the strike day. Passengers will have to make alternative arrangements if they have to travel on that day. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

Erm...??

I'm not sure you've quoted the right person here...

 

[irish_rail]

Do you really think the shifting political landscape is anything to do with the rail strikes? Most people, and I do mean most, couldn't give a stuff.

Try telling that to the entire hospitality industry that loses millions everytime the trains go on strike. The railway strikes have very far reaching economic effects, and most people are intelligent enough to realise that just because they do not personally use the train, that the trains not running will cause chaos for the country both socially and economically. There is a real feeling of Britain not working, and rail strikes are a major factor in that overall feeling.

 

[Bantamzen]

Try telling that to the entire hospitality industry that loses millions everytime the trains go on strike. The railway strikes have very far reaching economic effects, and most people are intelligent enough to realise that just because they do not personally use the train, that the trains not running will cause chaos for the country both socially and economically. There is a real feeling of Britain not working, and rail strikes are a major factor in that overall feeling.

Once upon a time I would have agreed with you. But the hospitality business has far bigger problems than railway industrial action, they started before the pandemic, got much during, and have been magnified by things like the cost of the living crisis subsequently. The strikes won't help of course, but the reality these factors are way more impactful. And for context, I work in data analysis that looks at exactly this kind of thing.

 

[class 9]

Train crew shortages i.e., lack of staff or staff taking industrial action?? There’s a difference

As previously said it's both, add in the fact from my conversations with different TOCs Drivers, there's a fair few Drivers that are so fed up, they're just choosing not to do any overtime or RDs.

 

[newtownmgr]

As previously said it's both, add in the fact from my conversations with different TOCs Drivers, there's a fair few Drivers that are so fed up, they're just choosing not to do any overtime or RDs.

Yes & I’m one of them.

Loads of references to the MSL’s and implementation of. For the vast majority of companies the MSL is unworkable. To run 40% of services they need 90% of drivers in work. As the vast majority of companies are running on 70 to 75% staffing levels it isn’t going to happen unless they start issuing work notices to those on rest days.

 

[Moonshot]

Details of workplace reforms for Northern Guards have been made available internally today.......suffice to say they look terrible, and will no doubt lead to further action from RMT members

 

[43066]

Details of workplace reforms for Northern Guards have been made available internally today.......suffice to say they look terrible, and will no doubt lead to further action from RMT members

Any details? I do appreciate you may not wish to/be able to share, and it would probably need to be a new thread.

 

[newtownmgr]

Details of workplace reforms for Northern Guards have been made available internally today.......suffice to say they look terrible, and will no doubt lead to further action from RMT members

Unfortunately that was always going to be on the cards. The dispute was far from resolved as many thought/stated, but merely kicked into the long grass.

 

[mandub]

Any details? I do appreciate you may not wish to/be able to share, and it would probably need to be a new thread.

I don't know details but guards in work today mentioned a couple of the worst bits....

No fixed rest day pattern.
Sick pay cut/reduced and dependant on service.
Changes to daily leave usage

 

[northwichcat]

Friday of half term….

But only for some council areas in the North West. For others it's next week, which makes it look even worse. What's the week after Easter going to look like when the majority of schools are off?

 

[newtownmgr]

I don't know details but guards in work today mentioned a couple of the worst bits....

No fixed rest day pattern.
Sick pay cut/reduced and dependant on service.
Changes to daily leave usage

No fixed rest day pattern is ridiculous and almost certainly unworkable. Can’t create any links without having a fixed rest day pattern. Whoever is coming up with those suggestions obviously doesn’t know how the railway works or how rostering works.

In my mind more stupid proposals designed to be rejected and create more disharmony and unrest.

It’s more than obvious that the DfT/RDG are still pulling the strings instead of leaving it to the companies as suggested.

 

[Efini92]

No fixed rest day pattern is ridiculous and almost certainly unworkable. Can’t create any links without having a fixed rest day pattern. Whoever is coming up with those suggestions obviously doesn’t know how the railway works or how rostering works.

In my mind more stupid proposals designed to be rejected and create more disharmony and unrest.

It’s more than obvious that the DfT/RDG are still pulling the strings instead of leaving it to the companies as suggested.

Not all toc’s have a fixed rest day pattern. Even some parts of northern don’t.

 

[northwichcat]

No fixed rest day pattern is ridiculous and almost certainly unworkable. Can’t create any links without having a fixed rest day pattern. Whoever is coming up with those suggestions obviously doesn’t know how the railway works or how rostering works.

While hospital staffing needs reforming, they operate on staff not having fixed day rest patterns. Some staff see it as a positive. For example, why have Sundays off every week if you want to get out and do things but find places are closed or close early on Sundays?

Improved Sunday services are now not a luxury, they are urgently needed. An increase in weekend lesuire travel has left Saturday trains at bursting point. While an increase in interest in outdoor activities post-COVID means there's high demand for travel to rural places on Sundays, but people are clogging up the roads due to a lack of trains. Want to walk the Middlewood Way from Macclesfield to Poynton and get the train back to the start point on a Sunday? Good luck with that! Walk a bit too slowly and you'll have a 3 hour wait for the next train. So you do it on Saturday instead when the trains are already rammed.

 

[newtownmgr]

Not all toc’s have a fixed rest day pattern. Even some parts of northern don’t.

Traincrew or non traincrew. I’m referring to traincrew rostering which i have experience of as an ex LLC rep.

While hospital staffing needs reforming, they operate on staff not having fixed day rest patterns. Some staff see it as a positive. For example, why have Sundays off every week if you want to get out and do things but find places are closed or close early on Sundays?

Improved Sunday services are now not a luxury, they are urgently needed. An increase in weekend lesuire travel has left Saturday trains at bursting point. While an increase in interest in outdoor activities post-COVID means there's high demand for travel to rural places on Sundays, but people are clogging up the roads due to a lack of trains. Want to walk the Middlewood Way from Macclesfield to Poynton and get the train back to the start point on a Sunday? Good luck with that! Walk a bit too slowly and you'll have a 3 hour wait for the next train. So you do it on Saturday instead when the trains are already rammed.

It’s nothing to do with Sundays. I’m stating that as regards traincrew rostering. You from my experience as a rep need fixed rest days in order to create a roster with sufficient spare cover built in. If you include Sundays with in the 4 day roster again you need in my opinion fixed rest days. If Sundays are to be commited & outside the basic working week then it doesn’t affect rest days other than you don’t put a Sunday on a long weekend.

 

[Anvil1984]

Did the previous poster misread this as having “fixed rest days” meaning same days off every week and not “fixed rest day pattern“ meaning 4 in, 3 off or the equivalent. It is correct though that some depots including my owns guards roster doesn’t seem to have a fixed pattern to it (might be a ex-FNW thing)

 

[northwichcat]

It’s nothing to do with Sundays. I’m stating that as regards traincrew rostering. You from my experience as a rep need fixed rest days in order to create a roster with sufficient spare cover built in. If you include Sundays with in the 4 day roster again you need in my opinion fixed rest days. If Sundays are to be commited & outside the basic working week then it doesn’t affect rest days other than you don’t put a Sunday on a long weekend.

I hope any revision to terms does include committed Sundays, otherwise Northern will continue to fail to achieve their contracted level of service everytime staff don't feel like volunteering to work overtime.

Someone else has posted that there are (union agreed) contracts for rail workers that don't include fixed rest days. Sometimes I think the issue for these disputes relate to how change is managed, rather than proposed changes being unworkable. It seems the unions are reluctuant to any change (unless it's something they've requested) and train operators are reluctuant to providing good communication (to anyone, not just employees).

 

[newtownmgr]

I hope any revision to terms does include committed Sundays, otherwise Northern will continue to fail to achieve their contracted level of service everytime staff don't feel like volunteering to work overtime.

Someone else has posted that there are (union agreed) contracts for rail workers that don't include fixed rest days. Sometimes I think the issue for these disputes relate to how change is managed, rather than proposed changes being unworkable. It seems the unions are reluctuant to any change (unless it's something they've requested) and train operators are reluctuant to providing good communication (to anyone, not just employees).

I’m not saying that Sundays won’t be included, I think you misunderstood me. I’m referring to the rostering of rest days which is a seperate issue to commited Sundays. As regards no fixed rest days, I would be surprised if any of the main TOC’s operate with out fixed rest days for traincrew. The FOC’s & possibly the kind of Lumo etc may do.

Did the previous poster misread this as having “fixed rest days” meaning same days off every week and not “fixed rest day pattern“ meaning 4 in, 3 off or the equivalent. It is correct though that some depots including my owns guards roster doesn’t seem to have a fixed pattern to it (might be a ex-FNW thing)

Anything that’s shown in a roster as a rest day is a fixed rest day, whether it’s the common Mon/Tues,Wed/Thurs,Fri/Sat repeating every 3 weeks or a disrupted pattern of mixed days either together or not. Either way a fixed rest day will be shown to allow for diagramming purposes.

What it appears they want to do is basically give you a roster on let’s say the Thursday telling you what days you are off etc the following week. That to me is unworkable as you are unable to book appointments,plan for personal events etc.

 

[Ashfordian6]

I hope any revision to terms does include committed Sundays, otherwise Northern will continue to fail to achieve their contracted level of service everytime staff don't feel like volunteering to work overtime.

Someone else has posted that there are (union agreed) contracts for rail workers that don't include fixed rest days. Sometimes I think the issue for these disputes relate to how change is managed, rather than proposed changes being unworkable. It seems the unions are reluctuant to any change (unless it's something they've requested) and train operators are reluctuant to providing good communication (to anyone, not just employees).

I believe you are missing the point of what "Fixed rest days" are.

It means you have a roster where you can tell in 1/3/6 months time what days off you have in any said week.

From what I understand, the proposed (stupid) changes will mean the employee will only know what random days they have off next week when the roster comes out the week prior.

 

[dk1]

I don't know details but guards in work today mentioned a couple of the worst bits....

No fixed rest day pattern.
Sick pay cut/reduced and dependant on service.
Changes to daily leave usage

I was quoted the compulsory hours overtime during disruption today and only paid at basic time Feeling internally seems to be that a return to RMT action is inevitable if plans for such reform continue.

While hospital staffing needs reforming, they operate on staff not having fixed day rest patterns. Some staff see it as a positive. For example, why have Sundays off every week if you want to get out and do things but find places are closed or close early on Sundays?

My latest trainee driver is ex-NHS. She often didn’t know her roster until a month or so before and would never ever want to return. She now knows what her roster will be this Christmas working with us.

From what I understand, the proposed (stupid) changes will mean the employee will only know what random days they have off next week when the roster comes out the week prior.

Zero chance of that ever being agreed.

 

[Ashfordian6]

Zero chance of that ever being agreed.

100% agree.

I wonder how much of a pay rise the ignorant who are blaming the unions/staff would want to get if their job suddenly changed and not only did they no longer get their weekends off, but they also wouldn't know what two days off they were getting next week until a few days before?

 

[dk1]

100% agree.

I wonder how much of a pay rise the ignorant who are blaming the unions/staff would want to get if their job suddenly changed and not only did they no longer get their weekends off, but they also wouldn't know what two days off they were getting next week until a few days before?

Just giving some the thought of working Saturdays instead of going to football or Sundays without Mum’s roast dinner would create panic attacks. Sure they think they are still at school

 

[PG]

100% agree.

I wonder how much of a pay rise the ignorant who are blaming the unions/staff would want to get if their job suddenly changed and not only did they no longer get their weekends off, but they also wouldn't know what two days off they were getting next week until a few days before?

Bit like being a permanent spare on the rota...

 

[DJP78]

Don’t quote me, but isn’t the flexible (won’t know until potentially 4 days in advance what days off you have ) rostering also one of the clauses ASLEF are in dispute over??

Absolutely agree. Nonsense demand and quite unnecessary

Train timetables are generally fixed and rostering arrangements are made well in advance.

Sunday cover is a separate issue and could be resolved without the need for such officious terms being forced through

 

[tony6499]

No fixed rest day pattern is ridiculous and almost certainly unworkable. Can’t create any links without having a fixed rest day pattern. Whoever is coming up with those suggestions obviously doesn’t know how the railway works or how rostering works.

In my mind more stupid proposals designed to be rejected and create more disharmony and unrest.

It’s more than obvious that the DfT/RDG are still pulling the strings instead of leaving it to the companies as suggested.

Unfortunately what seems a good idea on paper is absolutely useless , they usually fall apart in minutes. I had great pleasure once demolishing a managers idea of restructuring the leave pattern which would have left 90% of the people on leave on one shift.

 

[newtownmgr]

Unfortunately what seems a good idea on paper is absolutely useless , they usually fall apart in minutes. I had great pleasure once demolishing a managers idea of restructuring the leave pattern which would have left 90% of the people on leave on one shift.

Yeah. I’ve enjoyed a few of those meetings during my time as an LLC rep. I honestly don’t know what they are trying to achieve. Either trying to make rail staff pay for Covid or trying to finish the railways off for good.

 

[richfoz84]

The Gov via DFT proactively approached the RMT, offered them a 4% no-strings-attached deal and for negotiations to re-start

ASLEF haven’t been approached, despite them actively inviting the Gov to do so.

That’s the only difference

If ASLEF are offered a condition-less 4% deal, 6 months of further talks, I’m pretty certain ASLEF members will agree, as did RMT

Conditionless 4%.. PLUS the backpay.. and yes I’m sure most drivers would say yes to that to move things forward finally

 

[dk1]

Conditionless 4%.. PLUS the backpay.. and yes I’m sure most drivers would say yes to that to move things forward finally

Been saying that all along.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

My latest trainee driver is ex-NHS. She often didn’t know her roster until a month or so before

Do remember that the conditions in one NHS trust don’t necessarily match those in others. My wife is a midwife and she has all of her shifts for the next four months or so, with an additional month going on partway through the current month, and she already knows what Christmas shifts she’ll be working. In fact, they even have a handy little website they can give to family members to show their shifts, which definitely helps when organising childcare!

(It’s almost like a bunch of smaller units people think of as one national unit. Reminds me of something else, but I can’t think what… )

 

[dk1]

Do remember that the conditions in one NHS trust don’t necessarily match those in others. My wife is a midwife and she has all of her shifts for the next four months or so, with an additional month going on partway through the current month, and she already knows what Christmas shifts she’ll be working. In fact, they even have a handy little website they can give to family members to show their shifts, which definitely helps when organising childcare!

(It’s almost like a bunch of smaller units people think of as one national unit. Reminds me of something else, but I can’t think what… )

That’s good that she knows that and thank you. My trainee was not so lucky and has worked so hard with a young family to make this career change and is loving everything about it.