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ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

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dk1

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As that is the case, what makes Saturday a better day for GWR drivers to strike than say Friday, when Cross Country are stricking.

Which train operator do they most parallel? Obviously Oxford has Chiltern services as well as GWR but then passengers from Guildford to Gatwick Airport cam go direct or via Clapham Junction and GWR are striking on a different day to SWR and GTR.

GWR are often linked with XC as it can wipe out much of the West of England. Not sure why it’s different this time but working to rule is going along with it throughout this period. Saturday of course is now a hugely important day to disrupt.
 
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Confused52

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Wrong.
TOC’s can negotiate whatever they want with the unions ( and many would have already done so ) but government does not want to sign off / pay for any agreements
Yes I know they can, I didn't say they couldn't. But what I said is not proved wrong by an attempt at diversion. You have not said that ASLEF has actually tried to negotiate the details which form part of the offer from the RDG. Please answer the question, is there evidence of any negotiation to find something other that the most extreme interpretation? The answer is getting to be more obviously no each time someone answers.
 

12LDA28C

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The Government is not the employer, the TOCs (which have chosne to negotiate jointly in part, but not on detailed T&Cs, via the RDG) are the employer. Not talking to the TOCs is what makes it such that ASLEF have not chosen to negotiate, which your response at least confirms.

The TOCs are not able to negotiate with the Unions as has always been the case previously without DfT involvement. So effectively, the Government or more specifically the DfT is the employer at least as far as negotiating a settlement to the dispute is concerned. The DfT have failed to engage with ASLEF yet have made an acceptable offer to the RMT, for example. The same deal has never been offered to ASLEF. But this is all common knowledge.
 

Train_manager

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Yes, it is exactly the same staff doing the cleaning, filling the shelves, and being on the tills. Only the very largest stores have departmental roles nowadays and even then staff are expected to switch departments, with literally one minute's notice, as needed. It would not be unreasonable at all for train drivers to be sweeping platforms and acting in customer service roles when they are not required to drive a train.
Sweeping platforms for £60k plus a year ??? We're do I sign? A lot less stressful than driving a train.

Do I keep my final salary pension, free travel, 35 hour week, Sundays outside ?
 

island

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You expect people to accept these utterly unreasonable conditions?

5% with no strings would do it. There shouldn't be strings to a sub-inflationary rise. Productivity improvements are for a super-inflationary one.
5% is superinflationary. Inflation in the 12 months to February was 3.4%.
 

Confused52

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The TOCs are not able to negotiate with the Unions as has always been the case previously without DfT involvement. So effectively, the Government or more specifically the DfT is the employer at least as far as negotiating a settlement to the dispute is concerned. The DfT have failed to engage with ASLEF yet have made an acceptable offer to the RMT, for example. The same deal has never been offered to ASLEF. But this is all common knowledge.
More distraction. The TOCs have contracts which require DFT to agree changes in costs but they are able to negotiate but need the agreement to be signed off. As you confirm ASLEF have not negotiated with the TOCs, the DFT do not employ the staff and the contracts do not require that DFT negotiate with ASLEF. It is always the same ASLEF are not excused from negotiating with the TOCs because the DFT quite properly won't negotiate with ASLEF.

Yes I knew all that but it is just whitewash as usual. ASLEF do not appear to be negotiating in good faith as they agreed to do in the industry wide framework agreement.
 

winks

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Is this still the 2022 pay increase that is being argued about, or is 2023 and 2024 expected to all get consolidated in one increase? Is anything happening with other unions about 2023 and 2024 right now?
It relates to 2022/23 onwards as the previous years were pay freezes unless covered by a multi year deal I.e SWR.

So entering 3 years worth of back pay and pay rises ? How anyone is going to sort this I don’t know.
 

Val3ntine

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I think that I get @vicbury 's point.

As a former BR Station Manager I can't help looking at people around me, alert for anybody who looks lost, confused, ill, etc. I was in a branch of Sainsbury's recently and noticed an elderly customer without a trolley or basket looking at a bag of vegetables in their hand and apparently fazed at the same time. As it happened the Store Manager was in the same aisle as was a Warehouseperson just on their way to start their shift. Both the staff had noticed the situation at the same moment. The Warehouseperson stepped up and asked the customer "can I get you a basket?" at the same instant as the Store Manager uttered an identical phrase, followed by "thanks [name], I'll get the customer a basket and you can get to your job". This was followed up by the Manager getting the basket and ascertaining whether the customer needed any further assistance.

At one level both the Warehouseperson and the Manager had their 'own' jobs to do and could have shrugged 'don't they know that this is a self-service shop' whilst walking on by but of course they didn't. I have no reason to think that any other major supermarket chain would be substantially different.

But what has any of this got to do with all the draconian conditions that the government wish to impose on train drivers that will significantly change their work/life balance? I highlight that word because it is nothing to do with productivity of what train drivers actually do or their role.
 

VP185

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More distraction. The TOCs have contracts which require DFT to agree changes in costs but they are able to negotiate but need the agreement to be signed off. As you confirm ASLEF have not negotiated with the TOCs, the DFT do not employ the staff and the contracts do not require that DFT negotiate with ASLEF. It is always the same ASLEF are not excused from negotiating with the TOCs because the DFT quite properly won't negotiate with ASLEF.

Yes I knew all that but it is just whitewash as usual. ASLEF do not appear to be negotiating in good faith as they agreed to do in the industry wide framework agreement.

The TOCs have offers that they are prepared to make. They are NOT being permitted to make those offers by the DfT. It’s quite simple. They’re not even permitted to sit with the unions and even discuss details without DfT approval.
 

Urobach

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More distraction. The TOCs have contracts which require DFT to agree changes in costs but they are able to negotiate but need the agreement to be signed off. As you confirm ASLEF have not negotiated with the TOCs, the DFT do not employ the staff and the contracts do not require that DFT negotiate with ASLEF. It is always the same ASLEF are not excused from negotiating with the TOCs because the DFT quite properly won't negotiate with ASLEF.

To be honest, I think you know full well TOCs went into the negotiations with ASLEF with "we can't make an offer as our hands are tied" which is why negotiating goes above them.

Like the previous poster you quoted says, this is all common knowledge.
 

Bald Rick

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Why ? Purely playing Devil's Advocate here, but why do we ask this of the Railway but not for someone who works in Tesco ?

What about the HGV drivers? Or were they just told to get their load from A to B in a safe and timely fashion?

Having worked in retail myself, and having friends in senior roles at Tesco and (funnily enough) Sainsbury’s distribution, it is absolutely the case that everyone is there to grow the business, and has it drilled into them accordingly.


In every revenue earning organisation I have ever worked, it has been the responsibility of all to grow sales. Particularly those on higher salaries.

Exactly.


In most jobs if you hate your employer that much it's time to move on. The difficulty with the railway is that it's such a niche skillset you effectively can't.

You can of course move on. But salary expectations will need to be adjusted accordingly.


Growing the business isn't in ASLEF's gift.

Not entirely. But the members can and should contribute.


Apparently, MSL's still require 80% of staff to run 40% of services so it's unworkable

‘Apparently’. It baries considerably.
 

snowleopard

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Apologies for crashing the thread with a someone personalized question, but if someone will indulge me, I have been asked the following by a friend and am not really well placed to answer (If someone would prefer me to open a fresh thread for it I'll happily to do so instead):

What would we expect (from historic performance) GWR service levels to be like on strike-adjacent days?
Specifically:
- my friend needs to get from PAD to NWP on Friday 5 April, and can only really leave after the work day (so leaving PAD sometime 6pm onwards).
- GWR strike day is Sat 6 April
- She needs to get back to PAD from NWP either late on Sunday evening 7 April or early on Monday morning 8 April.

She doesn't mind if her specific booked train is cancelled and she has to go one or two services later, but obviously doesn't want to risk being completely stuck with all PAD-NWP / NWP-PAD trains being cancelled around those times. Is that worst case scenario likely?
 

newtownmgr

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The issue isn't really pay - even a sub inflation 5% or similar would probably get through, it has elsewhere.

It's the strings attached which require immense and unreasonable flexibility. I'm not in the slightest bit militant but I'd vote to strike over it without any question.
Likewise. I missed the 82 strikes by a year or so, but seeing what we’ve won in T & C’s over the years since & lost as well, what they offered is beyond an insult. I’d be willing to take a low percentage & keep the conditions as they are. Especially as ultimately what’s on the table doesn’t benefit anyone, companies & employees a like. Just makes life difficult, rostering,work life balance etc, out the window.
 

12LDA28C

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More distraction. The TOCs have contracts which require DFT to agree changes in costs but they are able to negotiate but need the agreement to be signed off. As you confirm ASLEF have not negotiated with the TOCs, the DFT do not employ the staff and the contracts do not require that DFT negotiate with ASLEF. It is always the same ASLEF are not excused from negotiating with the TOCs because the DFT quite properly won't negotiate with ASLEF.

Yes I knew all that but it is just whitewash as usual. ASLEF do not appear to be negotiating in good faith as they agreed to do in the industry wide framework agreement.

You are being deliberately obtuse. ASLEF cannot 'negotiate' with the TOCs' as you put it. That method of agreeing changes to Ts & Cs is not currently an option.
 

Confused52

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The TOCs have offers that they are prepared to make. They are NOT being permitted to make those offers by the DfT. It’s quite simple. They’re not even permitted to sit with the unions and even discuss details without DfT approval.
Given that the offer required ASLEF to agree to have the talks and they did not do so that is what you would expect. ASLEF want to have full control of what happens and how.

I have a very strong suspicion that both sides in this dispute are being economical with the facts and I am now fed up of hearing one sided diatribes about the effects of changes which are not certain to be what is agreed in the end as a means of justifying what is being done to the railway.

The fact is that both side are as much to blame and the constant placing of blame on the Government look like the same kind of political machinations that are ruining the NHS. Had enough now.
 

VP185

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Having worked in retail myself, and having friends in senior roles at Tesco and (funnily enough) Sainsbury’s distribution, it is absolutely the case that everyone is there to grow the business, and has it drilled into them accordingly.

And you can simply help to grow the business by turning up for work.

You can drill what you like into an employee. At the end of the day, most will be there to earn money in order to survive.
 

infobleep

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GWR are often linked with XC as it can wipe out much of the West of England. Not sure why it’s different this time but working to rule is going along with it throughout this period. Saturday of course is now a hugely important day to disrupt.
Some people are fascinated by trains but I am fascinated by things like how they decide which days to call staff out of strike. :lol:
 

infobleep

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‘Apparently’. It baries considerably.
So are there any TOCs that could implement a MSL with the staff they have? I'm not saying they want to but could they from a practical stand point?

I imagine some wouldn't have enough staff without needing overtime, which rightly is optional, but are there any that don't have that problem?
 

VP185

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Given that the offer required ASLEF to agree to have the talks and they did not do so that is what you would expect. ASLEF want to have full control of what happens and how.

You’ve basically said there that to have talks you first need to agree the offer.

To anyone with common sense that would seem a bit underhand.
 

LowLevel

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Having worked in retail myself, and having friends in senior roles at Tesco and (funnily enough) Sainsbury’s distribution, it is absolutely the case that everyone is there to grow the business, and has it drilled into them accordingly.




Exactly.




You can of course move on. But salary expectations will need to be adjusted accordingly.




Not entirely. But the members can and should contribute.




‘Apparently’. It baries considerably.
The problem of course is that the railway set up isn't conducive to people feeling like they're invested in it. Owning groups come in, do a few years, then clear off and you get a new tie and name badge so you don't care about that side of things - the company you work for is literally irrelevant.

The Government has declared war on you so you have no interest in them either.

You either get lucky and get the Virgin effect, or you keep rattling along doing your job with little obvious direct link between what you're doing, the pay in your bank each month and how the company/railway is performing.

It's the worst of all worlds.

I do my best because I believe in the railway, I actually quite like most of the passengers and it's in my make up to be driven to give a toss.

Even I couldn't care less about the company that employs me - when the employee survey comes around my answer is invariably the same - I care deeply and have a lot of pride in working for the railway, and I couldn't give a monkeys about the train operating company that has it's name over the door this week.
 

Confused52

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You’ve basically said there that to have talks you first need to agree the offer.

To anyone with common sense that would seem a bit underhand.
Wrong.

You need to agree to negotiate, not to accept the starting point. However if your General Secretary says he will not accept a word, as he did, one defends it with the interpretation which you repeated. It is just blame shifting.
 

VP185

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I do my best because I believe in the railway, I actually quite like most of the passengers and it's in my make up to be driven to give a toss.

Even I couldn't care less about the company that employs me - when the employee survey comes around my answer is invariably the same - I care deeply and have a lot of pride in working for the railway, and I couldn't give a monkeys about the train operating company that has it's name over the door this week.

Spot on.

Wrong.

You need to agree to negotiate, not to accept the starting point. However if your General Secretary says he will not accept a word, as he did, one defends it with the interpretation which you repeated. It is just blame shifting.

But the DfT don’t want to negotiate!

You can accept the offer first and then negotiate it later. You’re making no sense.
 

Krokodil

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I do my best because I believe in the railway, I actually quite like most of the passengers and it's in my make up to be driven to give a toss.

Even I couldn't care less about the company that employs me - when the employee survey comes around my answer is invariably the same - I care deeply and have a lot of pride in working for the railway, and I couldn't give a monkeys about the train operating company that has it's name over the door this week.
I agree, I do my best for my passengers (with the poor hand I am dealt from those making decisions above), and I want the railway to succeed (despite the continued attempts by the government to undermine it in favour of more polluting forms of transport). I have no loyalty to a brass plaque.
 

43066

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5% is superinflationary. Inflation in the 12 months to February was 3.4%.

That simply isn’t relevant when the pay dispute relates to two previous years where inflation was substantially higher than that. Cumulative inflation since the last time I had a pay rise (2019) is now baked in, and I’m now approx. 25% worse off in real terms.

Would you be happy with your employer only offering you 3.4% in 2024 if you hadn’t had a rise since 2019? If not, what is the relevance of your comment above?

More distraction. The TOCs have contracts which require DFT to agree changes in costs but they are able to negotiate but need the agreement to be signed off. As you confirm ASLEF have not negotiated with the TOCs, the DFT do not employ the staff and the contracts do not require that DFT negotiate with ASLEF. It is always the same ASLEF are not excused from negotiating with the TOCs because the DFT quite properly won't negotiate with ASLEF.

Yes I knew all that but it is just whitewash as usual. ASLEF do not appear to be negotiating in good faith as they agreed to do in the industry wide framework agreement.

The TOCs are specifically prohibited from negotiating freely with ASLEF by virtue of the national rail contracts they have signed (have you read them?). That fact is well known to everyone involved with this dispute, so I’m not sure why you’re disputing it, or what point you’re trying to make. You are simply repeating the same wildly inaccurate points you have made in previous threads, presumably as an attempt at obfuscation/point scoring?

Having worked in retail myself, and having friends in senior roles at Tesco and (funnily enough) Sainsbury’s distribution, it is absolutely the case that everyone is there to grow the business, and has it drilled into them accordingly.

And those are ordinary commercial businesses that are free to negotiate with their employees, and are nothing like the TOCs we are discussing for various reasons, so I fail to see how they’re relevant?

It’s amusing to see that some posters on here consider train drivers (over a year, and £100k + to train) to be the equivalent of minimum wage supermarket staff, which shows how fundamentally they misunderstand the value and importance of the grade’s skill set to the railway.


And we generally do. Just not when we’re taking strike action to protect our work life balance.

I realise that’s something you don’t consider important, and would like to see reduced/made worse, but that’s why we have a union…

The problem of course is that the railway set up isn't conducive to people feeling like they're invested in it. Owning groups come in, do a few years, then clear off and you get a new tie and name badge so you don't care about that side of things - the company you work for is literally irrelevant.

The Government has declared war on you so you have no interest in them either.

You either get lucky and get the Virgin effect, or you keep rattling along doing your job with little obvious direct link between what you're doing, the pay in your bank each month and how the company/railway is performing.

It's the worst of all worlds.

I do my best because I believe in the railway, I actually quite like most of the passengers and it's in my make up to be driven to give a toss.

Even I couldn't care less about the company that employs me - when the employee survey comes around my answer is invariably the same - I care deeply and have a lot of pride in working for the railway, and I couldn't give a monkeys about the train operating company that has it's name over the door this week.

A great post that encapsulates how many of our colleagues feel rather better than I could.
 
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Confused52

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The TOCs are specifically prohibited from negotiating freely with ASLEF by virtue of the national rail contracts they have signed (have you read them?).



And those are ordinary commercial businesses that are free to negotiate with their employees, and are nothing like the TOCs we are discussing for various reasons, so I fail to see how they’re relevant?

It’s interesting to see that some posters on here consider train drivers (over a year, and £100k + to train) to be the equivalent of minimum wage supermarket staff, which shows how little some on here understand the value and importance of the grade’s skill set to the railway.



And we generally do. Just not when we’re taking strike action to protect our work life balance.

I realise that’s something you don’t consider important, and would like to see reduced/made worse, but that’s why we have a union…
Of course I have read them, but your interpretation is not as clear as you carefully word it to suggest. They have to inform the DfT and seek authority to incur additional costs but that would be true for any owning group too, so the union should be used to that. It is not the same as forbidding contact much though some commenters would like to be the case.

The point about Whelan is not inaccurate, it is clear on video at the Parliament tv, I was amazed to hear it live. Oh and I still don't hate unions ...
 
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