Aslef strikes and OT ban called…

[weeklycommuter]

I listened to Harper and my reading of it was that the TOCs don't have to use work orders but they will still be judged on reaching 40% of services. They can choose to take the risk but realise that they are putting their contract appraisal at risk if they fail to run the service that they could have done if they had used work orders. It's just another example of Magical thinking on here.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Act 2023

www.legislation.gov.uk

Work notices relating to minimum service levels

(1)Where minimum service regulations have been made as respects a relevant service, an employer may give a work notice to a trade union in relation to any strike—
(a)of which the union gives notice to the employer under section 234A, and
(b)which relates to the provision of the service.
(2)In this Part “work notice” means a notice in writing that levels of service under minimum service regulations are to apply in relation to a strike.
(3)A work notice must be given within the period beginning with the day on which the notice under section 234A is given and ending with—
(a)the 7th day before the earliest strike date to which it relates, or
(b)any later day that is agreed between the employer and the union.
(4)A work notice must—
(a)identify the persons required to work during the strike in order to secure that the levels of service under the minimum service regulations are provided, and
(b)specify the work required to be carried out by them during the strike in order to secure that those levels of service are provided.
(5)A work notice must not identify more persons than are reasonably necessary for the purpose of providing the levels of service under the minimum service regulations.
(6)In deciding whether to identify a person in a work notice, the employer must not have regard to—
(a)whether the person is or is not a member of a trade union,
(b)whether the person has or has not—
(i)taken part in the activities of a trade union, or
(ii)made use of services made available to the person by a trade union by virtue of the person’s membership of the union, or
(c)whether or not—
(i)a matter has been raised on the person’s behalf (with or without the person’s consent), or
(ii)the person has consented to the raising of a matter on the person’s behalf,by a trade union of which the person is a member.
(7)In subsection (6) “a trade union” includes—
(a)a particular trade union, and
(b)a particular branch or section of a particular trade union.
(8)Before giving a work notice, the employer must—
(a)consult the union about the number of persons to be identified and the work to be specified in the notice, and
(b)have regard to any views expressed by the union in response.
(9)The employer may vary a work notice, so far as relating to a strike date, and give the notice as varied to the trade union—
(a)before the end of the 4th day before the strike date, or
(b)before the end of any later day that is agreed between the employer and the union.
(10)Before varying a work notice the employer must—
(a)consult the union about the variation, so far as it relates to the matters mentioned in subsection (8)(a), and
(b)have regard to any views expressed by the union in response.
(11)For the purposes of this section, where a strike takes place over more than one day (continuously or discontinuously) each day is to be treated as a separate “strike date”.

 

[Kryten2340]

Why don't they take the Go North East approach and strike continuously for 12 weeks?

 

[jayah]

Why don't they take the Go North East approach and strike continuously for 12 weeks?

Because nobody is going to spend the £150m required to keep them on full strike pay for that long.

 

[ModernRailways]

Why don't they take the Go North East approach and strike continuously for 12 weeks?

£75 per day GNE workers are getting, a significant chunk of drivers would be in financial trouble if they suddenly lost that much income. That's without the cost to ASLEF, as an example, at my depot alone an average day will have ~40 drivers rostered, that's £3k per day at one depot, £18k per week, £72k per 4 weeks, or £216k for 12 weeks. That's one depot in the north for one TOC, it's simply not going to happen. You would also see a total collapse in public support, and likely a number of crew who would end up crossing picket lines, the Government and TOCs would win.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why don't they take the Go North East approach and strike continuously for 12 weeks?

ASLEF cant afford it, politically or financially.

 

[Seehof]

I wish they would sort the industrial relations problems out once and for all - the damage being done to the railway is enormous. It does not help with constant other problems eg LNER again has major delays today.

 

[Dogbox]

I wish they would sort the industrial relations problems out once and for all - the damage being done to the railway is enormous. It does not help with constant other problems eg LNER again has major delays today.

This is what we all want and Mark Harper could achieve it with one phone call and simply offer aslef the same no strings offer that has been offered to the RMT, it really is that simple.

 

[Facing Back]

This is what we all want and Mark Harper could achieve it with one phone call and simply offer aslef the same no strings offer that has been offered to the RMT, it really is that simple.

Whilst it is not surprising on a forum populated by rail insiders and enthusiasts - and I take no sides in this particular debate - that the prevailing view is that government should settle the dispute by giving the union what they want - there is another argument around an understanding that changes and a level of consolidation of T&Cs are required for the overall good of the industry and all stakeholders and a reasoned discussion to negotiate a middle ground is necessary and desirable.

 

[GalaxyDog]

Whilst it is not surprising on a forum populated by rail insiders and enthusiasts - and I take no sides in this particular debate - that the prevailing view is that government should settle the dispute by giving the union what they want - there is another argument around an understanding that changes and a level of consolidation of T&Cs are required for the overall good of the industry and all stakeholders and a reasoned discussion to negotiate a middle ground is necessary and desirable.

Usually I would concede to your point but think it about it this way.
MPs have raised their salaries each year by nice amounts - [last year was only 2% - 2% of 84k is still a nice fat rate] -- any changes to how they should operate as MPs? Performance figures, satisfaction surveys, maybe a probe up their arses? Nah.
TOC Directors have nicely awarded themselvesd between 10-24% pay rises in the last couple of years. Are they having their terms, conditions and perks attacked in exchange? Didn't think so.

So why should the people who actually do the work?

 

[Wolfie]

If that is the case from what you say above, Harper must be pleased that so many people do actually believe him rather than the union executive committee.

General rule of thumb: don't ever believe anything any politician says without checking the real facts.

The selected routes only apply to Network Rail strikes.

TOC is 40% of normal service.

But how do you define that 40%? 40% of the overall total with services allocated at the operator's discretion or 40% on every single service?

In any event has the consultation period even finished yet?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

General rule of thumb: don't ever believe anything any politician says without checking the real facts.

10/10 - Absolutely spot on.

 

[12LDA28C]

Whilst it is not surprising on a forum populated by rail insiders and enthusiasts - and I take no sides in this particular debate - that the prevailing view is that government should settle the dispute by giving the union what they want - there is another argument around an understanding that changes and a level of consolidation of T&Cs are required for the overall good of the industry and all stakeholders and a reasoned discussion to negotiate a middle ground is necessary and desirable.

What both the Union and its members want is a return to a TOC by TOC negotiation to any changes to terms and conditions which is the way pay deals and changes to Ts and Cs have been agreed since the dawn of time, not to have ridiculous, detrimental and in some cases dangerous changes to working practices imposed arbitrarily by a Government that has no understanding of the industry.

 

[northwichcat]

Avanti have confirmed they won't be running any services on strike days and dates amended timetables will be uploaded by

On Sunday 3 December, please do not attempt to travel on Avanti West Coast as we will not be running any services on our routes.

To minimise the number of people disrupted, we suspend ticket sales for strike days as soon as they're announced.

We expect online journey planners to be updated to reflect amended strike timetables on the following dates:

• Friday 1 to Sunday 3 December’s amended strike timetables, including no Avanti West Coast trains on 3 December, will be published by 24 November.
• Monday 4 to Friday 8 December’s amended strike timetables will be published by 28 November.

Strike action | Travel Information | Avanti West Coast

Information on train times, strike information and the latest travel updates on our network.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

 

[Class 317]

General rule of thumb: don't ever believe anything any politician says without checking the real facts.


But how do you define that 40%? 40% of the overall total with services allocated at the operator's discretion or 40% on every single service?

In any event has the consultation period even finished yet?

The consultation has finished and results been published. The 40% is only defined as 40% of normal timetabled services.

Very much open to interpretation and will no doubt be challenged in court from many different angles.

 

[CAF397]

What both the Union and its members want is a return to a TOC by TOC negotiation to any changes to terms and conditions which is the way pay deals and changes to Ts and Cs have been agreed since the dawn of time, not to have ridiculous, detrimental and in some cases dangerous changes to working practices imposed arbitrarily by a Government that has no understanding of the industry.

The TOCs also want this.

They know what T&Cs would be beneficial to that specific TOC. For example, a TOC with Sundays inside the working week already would look for productivity somewhere else, than a TOC without Sundays inside. It's been said from Day 1 that a national agreement would not work for TOCs.

 

[Richardr]

TOC Directors have nicely awarded themselvesd between 10-24% pay rises in the last couple of years. Are they having their terms, conditions and perks attacked in exchange? Didn't think so.

Out of interest, could you give a source for this?

I was looking at the Givia Thameslink Railway Limited published accounts, and aggregate directors' emoluments have fallen from £1.195m to £0.692 in the past two years' accounts. I would be interested to know how that ties in with your minimum increase of 10%?

 

[NEDdrv]

Whilst it is not surprising on a forum populated by rail insiders and enthusiasts - and I take no sides in this particular debate - that the prevailing view is that government should settle the dispute by giving the union what they want - there is another argument around an understanding that changes and a level of consolidation of T&Cs are required for the overall good of the industry and all stakeholders and a reasoned discussion to negotiate a middle ground is necessary and desirable.

Like the unions have done in Scotland and Wales, some t&c’s”s have changed by agreement not a wholesale firestorm

Out of interest, could you give a source for this?

I was looking at the Givia Thameslink Railway Limited published accounts, and aggregate directors' emoluments have fallen from £1.195m to £0.692 in the past two years' accounts. I would be interested to know how that ties in with your minimum increase of 10%?

Companies house records my MD got over 40k pay rise last year

 

[yorkie]

Usually I would concede to your point but think it about it this way.
MPs have raised their salaries each year by nice amounts - [last year was only 2% - 2% of 84k is still a nice fat rate] -- any changes to how they should operate as MPs? Performance figures, satisfaction surveys, maybe a probe up their arses? Nah.

I don't think MP pay is really worth using as a valid comparison; it's also a subject for General Discussion, so I won't point out the flaws. Any salary increase (or lack of) in very recent years also needs to be considered in the wider context of the last couple of decades, really.

TOC Directors have nicely awarded themselvesd between 10-24% pay rises in the last couple of years. Are they having their terms, conditions and perks attacked in exchange? Didn't think so.

Do we have figures for how much TOC directors were paid (say) 20, 10, 5, 3 years ago compared to today?

 

[43096]

MPs have raised their salaries each year by nice amounts - [last year was only 2% - 2% of 84k is still a nice fat rate] -- any changes to how they should operate as MPs? Performance figures, satisfaction surveys, maybe a probe up their arses? Nah.

Classic whataboutery. Why not comment on anyone else who has had a payrise? Nurses, for example.

TOC Directors have nicely awarded themselvesd between 10-24% pay rises in the last couple of years. Are they having their terms, conditions and perks attacked in exchange? Didn't think so.

Go on - show us the evidence that that is the case. Because frankly I don't believe you, as TOC pay for all staff is controlled by DfT/Treasury.

 

[43096]

Companies house records my MD got over 40k pay rise last year

Which TOC is that?

 

[Elecman]

Like the unions have done in Scotland and Wales, some t&c’s”s have changed by agreement not a wholesale firestorm


Companies house records my MD got over 40k pay rise last year

More likely based on previous performance payments having reached the thresholds in previous years rather than just baseline salary increase by £40k

 

[NEDdrv]

Which TOC is that?

XC

 

[weeklycommuter]

Avanti West Coast have clearly decided not to run any services on Sunday 3 December. However 40% of services is defined no service is definitely not 40% of services. Perhaps they are waiting for secondary legislation but the legislation makes clear it is up to the employer not the Government to decide whether to issue any work notices and to attempt to deliver 40% of services, whatever that is. The train operators could just decide not to bother and tell ministers that if they are not happy the Government is welcome to take over the services and run them. The Government has not so far shown much interest in doing this, they handed Transpennine services to an operator of last resort but renewed the contracts for Cross Country and Avanti West Coast despite less than sparkling performances by these two train operators. The now abandoned proposals to close ticket offices have probably not improved relations between Government ministers and train operators.

Strike action | Travel Information | Avanti West Coast

Information on train times, strike information and the latest travel updates on our network.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Please do not attempt to travel on Avanti West Coast on Sunday 3 December as we will not be running any services on our routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

Avanti West Coast have clearly decided not to run any services on Sunday 3 December. However 40% of services is defined no service is definitely not 40% of services.

The minimum service level regulations are not yet in force, and won‘t be before these strikes.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I'm wondering if other TOCs will tow avanti's line as Chiltern & LNWR are set to be out on the same day meaning no trains between London & Birmingham if they all are non running,

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm wondering if other TOCs will tow avanti's line as Chiltern & LNWR are set to be out on the same day meaning no trains between London & Birmingham if they all are non running,

They haven‘t previously run servcies in ASLEF strikes, so I can‘t see them running this time either.

Also ECML closed for engineering works.

 

[Travelmonkey]

They haven‘t previously run servcies in ASLEF strikes, so I can‘t see them running this time either.

Also ECML closed for engineering works.

Rammed 222 time for me, sigh, I try to avoid the stp route and with the other 3 mainlines north out of London closed it maybe a bit iffy ,

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm wondering if other TOCs will tow avanti's line as Chiltern & LNWR are set to be out on the same day meaning no trains between London & Birmingham if they all are non running,

Travel will still be available between London and Birmingham on that day via other operators though.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Travel will still be available between London and Birmingham on that day via other operators though.

Rick has his doubts and I do too if you look at the strike schedule Avanti WMT & Chiltern are all set to be hit on the same day, so no direct routes you'll likely be using XC from a change outside London,

 

[12LDA28C]

Rick has his doubts and I do too if you look at the strike schedule Avanti WMT & Chiltern are all set to be hit on the same day, so no direct routes you'll likely be using XC from a change outside London,

Exactly. GWR to Reading or Oxford and change onto XC. So still entirely possible to travel between London and Birmingham, probably in a little over 2 hours with a quick connection.