At what point does waiting to buy a ticket stop being reasonable?

[orpine]

So, this morning about 7am, my friend got to Oxford station 20minutes before the train's scheduled departure with the intent of buying her tickets, strolling to the platform, getting the car-parking code, then enjoying a nice journey.

There were a couple of booths open, but the wait time was so long (two people having complicated needs apparently) she nearly ended up missing her train. Because of the excessive wait she ended up not getting the parking code (for mobile phone) and now has to deal with a car-parking penalty, and spent the entire ~90 minute journey worrying about it.

For bonus Irony; the reason she didn't use the ticket machines was because she had to buy a two-split ticket to save ~33% on a regular over-priced return.

The NRCoC says something about arriving a reasonable period before the train to buy a ticket. Could she just have gone to get on the train without a ticket after 15 minutes? That seems more than long enough at 7am on a weekend morning.

Have others had a similar experience where their journey was ruined at the outset by slow or under-manned ticket offices?
What are the potential solutions?

 

[Techniquest]

I once missed a London to Norwich train due to an extremely irritating customer in front of me at London Liverpool Street. Still annoyed to this day,over 9 years later, as it had an 86 on it and I've never since had an 86 either. Seem to remember it was at least a 10 or 15 minute wait, and for some reason only one window was open at the ticket office!

As for ticket machines, I don't know why I didn't use them, if they were even available at the time (2004 or 2005, too long ago to remember!). I knew nothing of the area at the time so it made more sense to go to the ticket office.

I've seen plenty of people miss trains at Hereford over the years, this was before a TVM was put in, queues used to be absolutely outrageous in the morning. And that was with allowing 25 minutes to buy tickets!

 

[RT4038]

So, this morning about 7am, my friend got to Oxford station 20minutes before the train's scheduled departure with the intent of buying her tickets, strolling to the platform, getting the car-parking code, then enjoying a nice journey.

There were a couple of booths open, but the wait time was so long (two people having complicated needs apparently) she nearly ended up missing her train. Because of the excessive wait she ended up not getting the parking code (for mobile phone) and now has to deal with a car-parking penalty, and spent the entire ~90 minute journey worrying about it.

For bonus Irony; the reason she didn't use the ticket machines was because she had to buy a two-split ticket to save ~33% on a regular over-priced return.

The NRCoC says something about arriving a reasonable period before the train to buy a ticket. Could she just have gone to get on the train without a ticket after 15 minutes? That seems more than long enough at 7am on a weekend morning.

Have others had a similar experience where their journey was ruined at the outset by slow or under-manned ticket offices?
What are the potential solutions?

Not sure that the car parking penalty was worth the split ticket from the ticket office. Better to buy that sort of ticket(s) on line and collect from TVM? It would be difficult for your girlfriend to argue to an RPI that she couldn't buy a ticket for her journey - she could have purchased from the TVM either (a) The more expensive through ticket, or (b) the first ticket of the split and then bought another ticket at the split point. If (b) delays the through journey then that is a hazard of using the split ticketing dodge!

 

[47802]

Yeh I can understand your friend being annoyed arriving at Ely last year some 20mins before my train departed, there was a massive queue at the ticket office, I tried the TVM as I usually do as a 1st option, but the option of an Anglia Plus Day ranger didn't seem to be available, which while it might not be the most standard of tickets I wouldn't have described it as unusual, so I had to get in the queue missing my train by about 2 mins, behind me tempers were starting to flair with people in danger of also missing their train.

 

[orpine]

Not sure that the car parking penalty was worth the split ticket from the ticket office. Better to buy that sort of ticket(s) on line and collect from TVM? It would be difficult for your girlfriend to argue to an RPI that she couldn't buy a ticket for her journey - she could have purchased from the TVM either (a) The more expensive through ticket, or (b) the first ticket of the split and then bought another ticket at the split point. If (b) delays the through journey then that is a hazard of using the split ticketing dodge!

This doesn't seem morally (or logically) correct. You're basically saying that people who try to get perfectly valid tickets have what's coming to them if the ticket isn't the most expensive sort available.
And that's before taking into account all the excellent reasons to avoid TVM's in the first place (see elsewhere).

Relating to suggestion (b) (which is what I would've done), that's something a normal rail user (i.e. someone who doesn't frequest these forums) wouldn't know was a valid option. Being on XC she wasn't at risk of a penalty fare, but she wouldn't have known that either (the big scary signs don't say that after all).

 

[Chris Wallis]

Yeh I can understand your friend being annoyed arriving at Ely last year some 20mins before my train departed, there was a massive queue at the ticket office, I tried the TVM as I usually do as a 1st option, but the option of an Anglia Plus Day ranger didn't seem to be available, which while it might not be the most standard of tickets I wouldn't have described it as unusual, so I had to get in the queue missing my train by about 2 mins, behind me tempers were starting to flair with people in danger of also missing their train.

The queue at Ely has become worse since GA took over. I've had a couple similar incidents to you, that have led to 'disagreements' with other railway staff during my journey.

Last time I caught the train from Ely there was a kind of portable desk with a couple of GA staff selling tickets. Not certain for the reasoning behind this, as I would have thought just opening both windows at the ticket office would have been easier/cheaper!

 

[causton]

The queue at Ely has become worse since GA took over. I've had a couple similar incidents to you, that have led to 'disagreements' with other railway staff during my journey.

Last time I caught the train from Ely there was a kind of portable desk with a couple of GA staff selling tickets. Not certain for the reasoning behind this, as I would have thought just opening both windows at the ticket office would have been easier/cheaper!

Presumably they were RPIs who were spare who wouldn't be trained in how to use ticket office equipment but do know how to use their Avantix!

 

[Bald Rick]

Probably the same amount of time it is reasonable to wait in a queue at the Post Office to renew your car tax.

 

[table38]

Probably the same amount of time it is reasonable to wait in a queue at the Post Office to renew your car tax.

But I can do that on-line before I leave home, because the complete range of all possible permutations of car tax are available on the website

 

[fusionblue]

"At what point does waiting to buy a ticket stop being reasonable?"

At the exact second you finally run out of patience and leave the queue?

 

[Firesprite]

The queue at Ely has become worse since GA took over. I've had a couple similar incidents to you, that have led to 'disagreements' with other railway staff during my journey.

Last time I caught the train from Ely there was a kind of portable desk with a couple of GA staff selling tickets. Not certain for the reasoning behind this, as I would have thought just opening both windows at the ticket office would have been easier/cheaper!

There been a problem with a lack of ticket office staff at Ely for the last few months.

You can get a Anglia Plus Day ranger from the machine off-peak. When you select some where like Great Yarmouth or Lowestoft, the ranger ticket will then appear in the fare options.

 

[47802]

There been a problem with a lack of ticket office staff at Ely for the last few months.

You can get a Anglia Plus Day ranger from the machine off-peak. When you select some where like Great Yarmouth or Lowestoft, the ranger ticket will then appear in the fare options.

Ok that's fine if you know that, at the time I didn't

 

[Abpj17]

It's possible to buy split tickets at some machines isn't it?

For good practice, write a complaint to the station operator about the wait too/lack of staff

 

[tsr]

Some machines offer the ability to put multiple tickets in a "basket", as well as allowing passengers to select an alternative origin to the station at which they are placed. I don't know if this applies to any machines in the AGA operating area, as I usually by my tickets in advance or at a ticket office for travel in that area (for other reasons). I don't think most FGW machines allow you to select a ticket to start somewhere else, though I could be wrong (and it would be a sensible move if it was allowed, given how many FGW stations seem to have either no TVM or just a single and possibly malfunctioning one!).

 

[howittpie]

Was wondering the same at Finsbury Park this morning turned up at the station with 15 minutes until my train they had one window open and only one of 6 tvm's working so ended up missing the train I waned to catch and only just making the next train. It took 25 minutes of queuing before Iwas able to purchase the ticket from the tvm would have been even longer if I had queued at the one window open.

 

[yorkie]

Not sure that the car parking penalty was worth the split ticket from the ticket office. Better to buy that sort of ticket(s) on line and collect from TVM? It would be difficult for your girlfriend to argue to an RPI that she couldn't buy a ticket for her journey - she could have purchased from the TVM either (a) The more expensive through ticket, or (b) the first ticket of the split and then bought another ticket at the split point. If (b) delays the through journey then that is a hazard of using the split ticketing dodge!

"split ticketing" is not a "dodge" but I agree that buying a ticket to the first split point may have been a good solution, but I'd say if in doubt, a cheaper ticket as it could be excesses if need be. A more expensive ticket would be difficult to get exchanged.

Opine - you have a PM.

 

[David Barrett]

A point was raised at a recent user group meeting meeting with regard to immediate travel and advance/complex journeys being sorted at the head of a queue, where the railway's stakeholder relations representative said without qualification that a passenger needing to purchase tickets for immediate travel is entitled to service ahead of those making advance arrangements.

 

[hassaanhc]

Some machines offer the ability to put multiple tickets in a "basket", as well as allowing passengers to select an alternative origin to the station at which they are placed. I don't know if this applies to any machines in the AGA operating area, as I usually by my tickets in advance or at a ticket office for travel in that area (for other reasons). I don't think most FGW machines allow you to select a ticket to start somewhere else, though I could be wrong (and it would be a sensible move if it was allowed, given how many FGW stations seem to have either no TVM or just a single and possibly malfunctioning one!).

The machines at Paddington, and the sole machine at Southall, do not allow you to select a ticket to start somewhere else. They do however, along with Southern, Southeastern, SWT, FCC and AGA machines, allow you to add more than one ticket to basket.

 

[Abpj17]

A point was raised at a recent user group meeting meeting with regard to immediate travel and advance/complex journeys being sorted at the head of a queue, where the railway's stakeholder relations representative said without qualification that a passenger needing to purchase tickets for immediate travel is entitled to service ahead of those making advance arrangements.

But back in the real world where people have no idea what customers in front are queueing for, and staff in the office don't ask...

I've been at some stations when RPI/Gateline staff will work the queues - selling tickets to those that they can - that's very helpful.

 

[David Barrett]

But back in the real world where people have no idea what customers in front are queueing for, and staff in the office don't ask...

I've been at some stations when RPI/Gateline staff will work the queues - selling tickets to those that they can - that's very helpful.

Indeed it is not possible to detect the intentions of those in the queue but the actions at the head are obvious and it is the transaction taking place that matters in the first instance. As for office staff, I have come across both types of response where some have concentrated on immediate travel needs in advance of a train departure whilst dealing with other matters afterwards, probably easier at a smaller station than a larger one, and others where the clerk has taken the attitude of never mind those in the queue behind, you are at the front of the line.

Evidently a passenger needing a ticket for immediate travel is entitled to request that he or she is served in the circumstances outlined. Seems fair and real enough to me although whether the less assertive amongst us would be mortified at the prospect of staking their claim opting instead to desperately hang on in the hope of all being well in the end is another matter.

 

[satisnek]

If I'm buying a ticket for later travel and there's someone behind me I'll always ask "are you travelling now?" and let them go ahead if they say yes. It's only fair.

On the other hand, if I'm buying a ticket for immediate travel then there's nothing worse than standing behind a "What time does the train leave?" "And it's from this platform, yes?" And what time does the Liverpool train leave from Birmingham New Street?" etc. etc. etc. Thankfully the introduction of a TVM has meant that I can get away from this!

 

[DelayRepay]

Large stations used to have separate windows for immediate travel and advance ticket purchases, but I've not seen this recently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

she could have purchased from the TVM either (a) The more expensive through ticket, or (b) the first ticket of the split and then bought another ticket at the split point. If (b) delays the through journey then that is a hazard of using the split ticketing dodge!

Relating to suggestion (b) (which is what I would've done), that's something a normal rail user (i.e. someone who doesn't frequest these forums) wouldn't know was a valid option.

But a normal rail user wouldn't have been buying a set of split tickets either, probably.

It doesn't help now but I always book anything slightly complex online to avoid any problems.

 

[table38]

If I'm buying a ticket for later travel and there's someone behind me I'll always ask "are you travelling now?" and let them go ahead if they say yes. It's only fair.

I was collecting a load of advances the other day, but forgot to ask the young lady behind me the "are you travelling now" question, and having let her go first, she then proceeded to very slowly stare at the screen and eventually retrieve two advances herself!

It doesn't help now but I always book anything slightly complex online to avoid any problems.

I do as well, but I have a ton of RTVs piling up, so sooner or later, I will have to be "that guy in the queue in front of you"

 

[route:oxford]

So, this morning about 7am, my friend got to Oxford station 20minutes before the train's scheduled departure with the intent of buying her tickets, strolling to the platform, getting the car-parking code, then enjoying a nice journey.

Which service was she going for?

There were a couple of booths open, but the wait time was so long (two people having complicated needs apparently) she nearly ended up missing her train. Because of the excessive wait she ended up not getting the parking code (for mobile phone) and now has to deal with a car-parking penalty, and spent the entire ~90 minute journey worrying about it.

She still had the choice of buying the parking ticket without the rail users discount by phone.

For bonus Irony; the reason she didn't use the ticket machines was because she had to buy a two-split ticket to save ~33% on a regular over-priced return.

The NRCoC says something about arriving a reasonable period before the train to buy a ticket. Could she just have gone to get on the train without a ticket after 15 minutes? That seems more than long enough at 7am on a weekend morning.

She could have tried... The gateline staff sometimes have hand-held machines for ticket sales.

Have others had a similar experience where their journey was ruined at the outset by slow or under-manned ticket offices?
What are the potential solutions?

Never.

I'm organised and buy tickets in advance.
Collect or print tickets in advance if possible.
Where it's necessary to "split" a ticket and I'd be driving to the station - I'd probably drive to the first split anyway.

 

[Quakers Yard]

TOCs advocate allow plenty of time...surely 20 mins should be enough.
TOCs are trying to exude an air of efficiency, frequency, friendliness, approachability and in touch with their customer base...oh and providing safety, comfort and speed...trumpeting how good a service they are providing...
It should go much deeper by doing all they can to get revenue fairly to compensate for not facilitating pre-board sales. TOCs are not dull and know when services are especially busy and should do all they can to reduce queuing time. Permit to travel should be available longer at gated stations with a time limit by which time the train manager etc has to cancel by selling a ticket. Those joining at unstaffed stations should not have to go too far to a gated destination abut if someone joined at say Pentrebach to go to Abercynon should have been actively sold a ticket onboard. If the guard or whoever does not get to sell a ticket then that is not the fault of the passenger.

 

[6Gman]

I'm organised and buy tickets in advance.
Collect or print tickets in advance if possible.

So I take it spontaneity is not your thing?

More often than not when we leave the house we haven't decided where we are going.

"Let's go and have a look at the board" we say as we approach the station. If the Shrewsbury train is late we might choose Liverpool; if we have just missed the Manchester then it might be Stafford.

Or Birmingham. Or Chester.

Bit difficult to book in advance for that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Permit to travel should be available longer at gated stations with a time limit by which time the train manager etc has to cancel by selling a ticket.

An excellent suggestion for manned stations. If I turn up at 13.30 for a 13.51 departure and see a huge queue of people all wanting Forces Railcard Rail + Ship tickets to Mallow via Cairn Ryan but returning via Fishguard and paying by Bank of Uzbekistan charge cards supplemented by RTVs and a couple of RJ's Postal Orders it would be nice to have something to confirm that I had indeed been there in good time for the train I wanted to catch.

 

[route:oxford]

So I take it spontaneity is not your thing?

More often than not when we leave the house we haven't decided where we are going.

I can honestly say that I've never driven into the centre of Oxford without a definite plan in mind.

At £24 a day to park in the Westgate (£27 on a Saturday to mitigate against tourists) if there wasn't a rail option that entertained me is quite discouraging.

 

[3141]

Evidently a passenger needing a ticket for immediate travel is entitled to request that he or she is served in the circumstances outlined. Seems fair and real enough to me although whether the less assertive amongst us would be mortified at the prospect of staking their claim opting instead to desperately hang on in the hope of all being well in the end is another matter.

So I'm in this queue and it looks as if I won't have got my ticket by the time is due to leave.

I address the people in front of me. "Pray raise your hand," I say, " if you are buying a ticket in advance, or making an enquiry. I wish to catch the 10.55."

Several people look away. Somebody says "Must be some kind of nutter." An officer of the BTP looks across. Someone else asks "Why do you want to know?"

"Because I am travelling on the 10.55," I reply, " and I've been queueing for ten minutes already, it's now 10.43 and I'll miss my train if I don't get a ticket soon, and I read on railforums.co.uk that immediate travellers are entitled to be served first."

"Tell that to the people inside," says someone else. He waves towards the ticket windows. The clerks inside are protected by six inches of reinforced glass designed to survive a tactical nuclear attack. It is highly unlikely that they will hear what I am trying to say unless I push my way to the front of the queue. If they then don't agree that I should have priority I may have to go back to the far end of the queue, which is now twice as long as when I first joined it. I observe the BTP officer checking his taser.

Suddenly there is a flash of light and a handsome young man in a long flowing cloak leaps into view. "I am a railway's stakeholder relations representative," he cries, "and this valued customer is absolutely right. As an immediate traveller he is entitled to priority in this queue. He can buy his ticket NOW! Go go go!!"

The queue melts away....and I wake from the dream to find my wife shaking my shoulder. "Time to get up, she says. "You'll need to get to the station in plenty of time in case there's another long queue at the booking office. You don't want to miss your train again."

 

[tsr]

A more concise version is that your local duty station manager appears in a glowing robe of orange, tells you that the queue is getting ridiculous, and would you (and the passengers in the queue behind you) please ask the guard on the train to sell you a ticket - and give the station a ring if they think you are trying it on.

But I guess not everyone's local station staff apply common sense when the station is busy, and the trains are both not very frequent that day and also fairly quiet. This is probably due to a shortage of utopia in the Slough area.

 

[Abpj17]

TVM's/online don't help passengers who know exactly what ticket they want and will take one minute to purchase...for those options not available online tho

It's a persistent frustration to need to queue for boundary extensions and the £2 child returns! (I'm usually going through my commuting station after the ticket office closes; I've started to buy at my arrival station - but that's still a bit hit and miss - despite Blackfriars being a major station, the ticket office and WH Smith both routinely shut for 20 mins mid morning when I'm often arriving for a joint coffee break)