Attitude of neighbouring TOCs to an unreliable one?

[Welshman]

In connection with my thread on AWC "updated" journeys, I just sometimes wonder what is the attitude of Transport for Wales towards Avanti West Coast?

AWC occasionally terminate one of their Euston- Holyheads at Crewe, or start a journey from Holyhead at Crewe. The usual spiel about you may use your ticket on any journey up to an hour after your cancelled one doesn't cut it when it is one of 4 or 5 per day that has been cancelled. And to add to the excitement, there is usually no re-assurance that ticket acceptance has been agreed with other TOCs.
So you have no alternative but to catch the next TfW 2 car along the North Wales Coast and then the Chester shuttle, which is usually pretty full with their own passengers before they start to accommodate a Voyager's worth, and throw yourself on the mercy of the conductor as you present your AWC-only Advance single for inspection.
Now in my experience, the TfW conductors have been unfailingly understanding, and perhaps simply rolled their eyes to heaven and muttered something like "Avanti at it again?"
But they must grow tired of having to accommodate extra AWC passengers, some of them not in the very best of moods and not appreciating its not their fault.
Perhaps they daren't say what they really feel. But I am grateful to every-one of them.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

I always thought it was odd that when TPE has fallen over at Leeds (so most days) the announcements always stipulate that "your next transpennine express service is the XX:XX to Wherever" - presumably because the passengers aren't able to use Northern / CrossCountry instead to avoid having to put on ticket acceptance. Or because they are themselves so overcrowded that decanting another train of irritated TPE folk onto them is impossible. But I can't imagine any of those TOCs have a great opinion of the others' reliability!

 

[plugwash]

As someone who works in manchester, I'm sure I've seen plenty of TFW services to manchester turned at Crewe with other TOCs having to pick up the slack.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The fragmented railway at it again I suspect is what most staff from managing director to onboard mobile cleaner think when the inevitable happens, like every day somewhere on the network

 

[YorkRailFan]

As someone who works in manchester, I'm sure I've seen plenty of TFW services to manchester turned at Crewe with other TOCs having to pick up the slack.

Yes, sometimes when I travel with TFW from Manchester I have to get Northern to Crewe as TFW decided to start the service in Crewe.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It always seems to me that AWC staff are more annoyed about it. The other night we had a AWC guard who seemed determined to prove that guards were simply not needed. And did even less than the bear minimum. He was clearly in a foul mood & I think would have been grateful had someone given him the sack there and then!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Quite often at Lime St, Avanti station staff will wander over and tell us that they have told their passengers to board the LNR train and chance onto Avanti services at Crewe. They never ask the train Crewe whether they would allow it, and almost never is their ticket acceptance.

As LNR services from Lime St are very busy a lot of the time, is does grate LNR passengers somewhat and staff more so. Funnily enough, when the shoe is on the other foot, Avanti will almost always refuse to allow travel if the ticket doesn't allow it. Poor form really.

 

[Krokodil]

Now in my experience, the TfW conductors have been unfailingly understanding, and perhaps simply rolled their eyes to heaven and muttered something like "Avanti at it again?"

Or "what have they cancelled this time?" with a sigh.

As someone who works in manchester, I'm sure I've seen plenty of TFW services to manchester turned at Crewe with other TOCs having to pick up the slack.

That will involve completely different crews (services along the coast are worked by ex-FNW depots, they have next to nothing to do with the Cardiff-Manchester services).

There's also quite a lot of difference between terminating at Crewe - where there's a frequent onward service to Manchester - and arranging ticket acceptance, compared with dumping an entire Voyager worth of people onto an infrequent stopper formed of two coaches.

TfW turning short at Crewe may often be down to Network Rail-caused delays, whereas an Avanti cancelation will usually be down to their inability to employ enough staff to run even a reduced timetable.

Quite often at Lime St, Avanti station staff will wander over and tell us that they have told their passengers to board the LNR train and chance onto Avanti services at Crewe. They never ask the train Crewe whether they would allow it, and almost never is their ticket acceptance.

As LNR services from Lime St are very busy a lot of the time, is does grate LNR passengers somewhat and staff more so. Funnily enough, when the shoe is on the other foot, Avanti will almost always refuse to allow travel if the ticket doesn't allow it. Poor form really.

I would be feeding a complaint back through your own management about that.

 

[thelongestroad]

As a guard myself, if you let that type of thing annoy you/grow tired of, then you are taking the job way too seriously.

 

[Krokodil]

As a guard myself, if you let that type of thing annoy you/grow tired of, then you are taking the job way too seriously.

If you're getting the aggro from passengers about a cancellation on a completely different TOC (and it's not like you've been chinging the passengers for it) then you'd be entirely reasonable if you were annoyed.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In connection with my thread on AWC "updated" journeys, I just sometimes wonder what is the attitude of Transport for Wales towards Avanti West Coast?

AWC occasionally terminate one of their Euston- Holyheads at Crewe, or start a journey from Holyhead at Crewe. The usual spiel about you may use your ticket on any journey up to an hour after your cancelled one doesn't cut it when it is one of 4 or 5 per day that has been cancelled. And to add to the excitement, there is usually no re-assurance that ticket acceptance has been agreed with other TOCs.
So you have no alternative but to catch the next TfW 2 car along the North Wales Coast and then the Chester shuttle, which is usually pretty full with their own passengers before they start to accommodate a Voyager's worth, and throw yourself on the mercy of the conductor as you present your AWC-only Advance single for inspection.
Now in my experience, the TfW conductors have been unfailingly understanding, and perhaps simply rolled their eyes to heaven and muttered something like "Avanti at it again?"
But they must grow tired of having to accommodate extra AWC passengers, some of them not in the very best of moods and not appreciating its not their fault.
Perhaps they daren't say what they really feel. But I am grateful to every-one of them.

And TfW regularly do the same to Avanti starting Manchester to Cardiff services from Crewe with passengers having to use Avanti to get to Crewe…

TfW turning short at Crewe may often be down to Network Rail-caused delays, whereas an Avanti cancelation will usually be down to their inability to employ enough staff to run even a reduced timetable.

No its often down to delays caused by TfW’s inability to have enough rolling stock to run even a reduced timetable

 

[Krokodil]

No its often down to delays caused by TfW’s inability to have enough rolling stock to run even a reduced timetable

TfW are running a full timetable. Their cancellation rate (yes, even after adjusting for P-codes) is half Avanti's.

Avanti currently timetable 5tpd between North Wales and Euston (having cut the 04:48 which was the only train that could get you to London before 9am), and in the last week or so an average of two of those five services have been cancelled/altered per day.

TfW run 17tpd between Manchester and Crewe. Yesterday there was one cancellation. Wednesday there were no cancellations, Tuesday there were no cancellations, Monday there were no cancellations...

 

[43066]

If you're getting the aggro from passengers about a cancellation on a completely different TOC (and it's not like you've been chinging the passengers for it) then you'd be entirely reasonable if you were annoyed.

Some of our TMs and hosts get a little fed up with the minority of Avanti or LNER passengers who take their frustration out on staff when they don’t get a reserved seat during ticket acceptance, despite travelling on an entirely separate operator’s trains!

It doesn’t help that this is usually when either Euston or King’s Cross are closed at weekends, and we’re already struggling to accommodate huge numbers.

 

[185]

I am sure whilst you are neatly folded into the overhead luggage rack on a TfW 158, you are safe in the knowledge that FirstBus shareholders thank you for your

...free money...

I do think several other TOCs are again starting to pick up the pieces of Avanti's mess and it's high time Mr Bailey at the DfT is forced to OLR this one too.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Now in my experience, the TfW conductors have been unfailingly understanding, and perhaps simply rolled their eyes to heaven and muttered something like "Avanti at it again?"

Well that’s extremely cheeky of them then. Perhaps things are better in North Wales, but I live in Cardiff and would say with confidence I believe TfW was easily the worst TOC in the UK in 2023. OK, or at least after TPE.

 

[sansyy]

Well that’s extremely cheeky of them then. Perhaps things are better in North Wales, but I live in Cardiff and would say with confidence I believe TfW was easily the worst TOC in the UK in 2023. OK, or at least after TPE.

Things aren't much better in North Wales but we don't expect London Underground transport around here and appreciate the times a 3-car 197 or a 4-car 158 rolls around since its been a lot worse with stoppers consisting of 150s from Birmingham to Manchester!

 

[Krokodil]

Well that’s extremely cheeky of them then. Perhaps things are better in North Wales, but I live in Cardiff and would say with confidence I believe TfW was easily the worst TOC in the UK in 2023. OK, or at least after TPE.

I take it that you aren't very familiar with Avanti's performance then? This review should give you a good idea of what passengers in the North think (outside of silly season when capacity issues bite):

Sarah gave TrC Trenau / TfW Rail 5 stars. Check out the full review...

I love travelling on TfW. It's a delight. North coast route is my usual. The workers seem happy ...

uk.trustpilot.com

TPE have severely thinned their timetable, but at least they seem to be capable of running what's left. Avanti on the other hand are cancelling a sixth of their services on an ad-hoc basis.

Overcrowding is a serious issue on weekends and during school holidays up here, but that's the main gripe. Trains turn up and don't tend to lose much time (if anything runs late it's usually something coming up from the South). If you get a seat the 197s are reasonably comfortable units by modern standards.

Industrial action is also not an issue at TfW so disruption is minimised to a few local cases where TfW's limited unit fleet can't cope with passengers displaced by cancelled services of the English operators.

I might suggest that your complaints about performance more reflect the upheaval while modernisation work is ongoing (including issues with road transport) than they reflect issues with the train service itself.

 

[Llandudno]

Last to two London - Holyhead’s last night terminated at Crewe, I suspect it might have been a bit cosy on a half term Friday night westbound from Chester on the late TfW coastal trains, I hope they were 3 car operated as there would be more room for standees and luggage etc!

 

[185]

Solitary 150 on today's 1130 Manchester Cardiff. With the arrival of so many 197s absolutely no excuse for this now. A number of operators only seem to care about the local train service near their head office whilst neglecting their longer distance flagship routes. Transport mostly for Ebbw Vale are no exception and it is time they and other operators are stripped of these longer distance routes.

Looking at present Rhymney, Penarth & Ystrad Mynach have 4 car sets operating. If the 300+ passengers who alighted this eskimo canoe at Manchester having made the four hour trip to Manchester are lower down the food chain, it's time to remove TfW and have adults run the route.

 

[sh24]

The attitudes are sometimes confusing. 2 GWR cancellations in a row from Plymouth but an option to take Cross Country to Bristol Parkway and change there. The ticket office told me to ask the guard, the guard said yes but you'll have to sit in Standard (I had a fairly expensive First Advance ticket). Standard was predictably busy and I did need to work. So instead this customer spends 2 hours holed up in a Plymouth coffee shop and got home almost 3 hours later than planned at 11pm.

Passengers just see "the trains" as a monolithic entity and really don't care about the intricacies.

 

[Llandudno]

S

Solitary 150 on today's 1130 Manchester Cardiff. With the arrival of so many 197s absolutely no excuse for this now. A number of operators only seem to care about the local train service near their head office whilst neglecting their longer distance flagship routes. Transport mostly for Ebbw Vale are no exception and it is time they and other operators are stripped of these longer distance routes.

Looking at present Rhymney, Penarth & Ystrad Mynach have 4 car sets operating. If the 300+ passengers who alighted this eskimo canoe at Manchester having made the four hour trip to Manchester are lower down the food chain, it's time to remove TfW and have adults run the route.

Surely TfW must have some spare 197 units today and tomorrow as there are no trains running west of Rhyl due to engineering work?

 

[snookertam]

There tends to be ticket acceptance requested by the responsible TOC to the TOC whose service needs to pick up passengers. LNER and Cross Coubtry will sometimes do this north and west of Edinburgh with ScotRail who tend to oblige as much as they can. However where passenger numbers are likely to be excessive then the TOC concerned will need to arrange alternative transport.

 

[Krokodil]

Last to two London - Holyhead’s last night terminated at Crewe, I suspect it might have been a bit cosy on a half term Friday night westbound from Chester on the late TfW coastal trains, I hope they were 3 car operated as there would be more room for standees and luggage etc!

Yes, both 1D41 and 1W98 were 3 car units.

Surely TfW must have some spare 197 units today and tomorrow as there are no trains running west of Rhyl due to engineering work?

How many units were trapped in Holyhead? There's no opportunity to keep any of them on the right side of the block because they were having to send units to Wrexham for stabling as it was, not enough room at Chester. The unit that would normally stable at Llandudno Junction did stay at Chester though.

 

[Moonshot]

As a guard myself, if you let that type of thing annoy you/grow tired of, then you are taking the job way too seriously.

Yes this is very true......most guards I know would generally accept other tickets in during disruption without being told to.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes this is very true......most guards I know would generally accept other tickets in during disruption without being told to.

I think there are definitely some out there that enjoy being able to exercise their authority though, unfortunately, and will sometimes disregard compassion or discretion altogether. I've certainly witnessed that.

 

[TheSmiths82]

Solitary 150 on today's 1130 Manchester Cardiff. With the arrival of so many 197s absolutely no excuse for this now. A number of operators only seem to care about the local train service near their head office whilst neglecting their longer distance flagship routes. Transport mostly for Ebbw Vale are no exception and it is time they and other operators are stripped of these longer distance routes.

This is the main reason I haven't travelled on that line for years, had too many experiences with TFW on a class 150 which was dangerously over crowded. I instead just to go to places that have nicer trains.

 

[Llandudno]

Yes, both 1D41 and 1W98 were 3 car units.


How many units were trapped in Holyhead? There's no opportunity to keep any of them on the right side of the block because they were having to send units to Wrexham for stabling as it was, not enough room at Chester. The unit that would normally stable at Llandudno Junction did stay at Chester though.

Couldn’t they keep some in the sidings at Rhyl?

 

[Krokodil]

Couldn’t they keep some in the sidings at Rhyl?

You're still going to need to service a number of units so if you did a mass transfer of units back east before the block started you wouldn't be able to get them fueled and tanked because there aren't enough slots. The days when servicing merely involved connecting hoses to the toilet header tanks and sweeping up the litter are long gone. Fail to empty the CET tanks and you'll have a lot of bogless trains the next morning.

That's apart from the fact that you'd need to arrange a security presence at the Civil Engineer's sidings to make sure that the units don’t get trashed and that security presence will need access to welfare facilities. Not to mention that the Civil Engineer may well want to use his sidings.

Yes this is very true......most guards I know would generally accept other tickets in during disruption without being told to.

Yes, but that won't stop passengers taking out their frustrations for the disruption on the poor guard from the TOC which is actually running trains.

 

[dk1]

EMR often have issues running through to Norwich but it’s never a problem for us at GA to pass their passengers to/from Ely where they often restart the service towards Nottingham. Even if ticket acceptance hasn’t been formally given myself I just tell their passengers at Norwich or Thetford to jump aboard & advise the guard. Having the same parent company obviously helps but I notice we also do the same between Ely/Cambridge/Stansted Airport for XC.

 

[LowLevel]

Personally my only real issue is towards companies, rather than passengers.

For example TOCs like LNER, Northern and Cross Country who have introduced advance tickets for local flows like Newark to Lincoln or Long Eaton to Nottingham, where I'm supposed to switch in a heart beat to wasting time and effort arguing over someone having a 4 quid return instead of a 5 quid one, to passing all their tickets with or without official advice because they've decided not to turn up today.

The result for many of my colleagues is they just don't bother checking tickets between Liverpool and Manchester or Derby and Nottingham now.