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ATW lack of Class 175 first class seating

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gondukin

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Having travelled this route as a commuter from Leominster to Newport for about 15 months until recently, I thought I'd pick up on a couple of points based on my experiences, in no particular order.

Regarding reliability, imo reliability was poor although they usually used to get to their destination eventually. They seemed to frequently be running late because an engine had failed (ranging from a couple in a month to two in a week), not too bad on the three cars but used to pretty badly delay the two cars if it failed early on in the route. Also less frequent but common enough is the electrics cutting out at a station, not sure what causes that although usually it would be sorted after a couple of minutes. There have been a couple of occasions where the train has taken a long time before it could leave the station for whatever reason (once in Manchester, about half hour delay, once in cardiff, an hour's delay - both leisure journeys but in the same time period). Worst experience was sitting at Maindee Junction for two hours when the brakes failed, eventually they tried to hook another unit up but apparently "the computers wouldn't talk to each other". Once the train was taken out of service at Leo (Southbound) due to a fuel leak and another time we got kicked off at Hereford (Southbound) to wait for the next one, can't remember what that was for. On average I would expect two or three delays a month due to reliability issues, with occasional cancellations on route or delays/cancellations before they got to me. Can't say I ever had a 158 terminated on me, but I didn't used to see them that often (maybe once or twice a month).

The 158's seemed to be able to keep up but the 150's generally couldn't when running on a service you'd expect to see a 175. However I know a few months back they retimed some quicker services from Manchester, I don't know if the 158's could keep up with those now but they can keep up with the others. The 158's don't seem to be able to make time back when late though, which the 175's can. Someone mentioned a 153 (which I just looked up on wikipedia), never seen one of those on my journey :D although I recognise it from the HoW line. Don't think it would cope very well.

With regard to lengths of trains they were consistent probably about 80% of the time, so they must plan what lengths to use for specific services but can't always stick to it.

The air con isn't too bad once you are used to it, the worst draft is by the two sets of tables at each end of the carriage and one set gets it more than the other (probably why this comment was made by someone who also said there aren't enough tables!). I got quite accustomed to the air con (I was pretty adept at ensuring myself a table seat by learning where to stand on the platforms) and it irritated me when the conductor would fiddle with it because someone was maoning about it :D The only time it would annoy me was when the air con was blasting out and the heating was on, usually in the middle of summer, so you would be boiling on one side and freezing on the other.

Not sure how those teenagers thought they were first class trains :D They were a bit grubby and tatty but not too bad to be fair, could do with a proper clean more often and a refurb though. Cleaners apperaing on that route is fairly common, and often the trolley people and sometimes even the conductor does a bit of tidying up. Occasionally though they will turn up absolutely hanging.

Generally, as long as the heating/air con was working as expected and the engines didn't fail, they weren't bad little trains. Can't say I particularly minded the 158's either, the 150's though I used to dread seeing one of them pitch up. The easiest way to increase capacity on that route would be to run more 158's and double them up to four car, but obviously they'd need to find spare ones!
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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When I first set up this thead back in September, I did not realise that it would still be receiving postings towards the end of December. I had the Class 185 units of First TPE in mind as an existing similar type of service run by 3-car units with a small amount of First Class accomodation, in comparison to the Class 175 units on the Manchester to South Wales routes, which are all quite long-distance routes, that do not offer this facility.
 

Rhydgaled

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1V87 is currently timed to connect with 2E34 at Clarbeston Road, the 2005 service to Fishguard Harbour for a ferry to Rosslare.

No ferry to connect with at that time as far as I know. That 20:05 Clarbeston Road to Fishguard is one of our new services, in this case only for the folk of Goodwick or car drivers since the buses don't run that late at the moment. The only ferries left (Stena sold the 'Stena Lynx III' which has operated in previous summers) are the ones that have been served for years by the two trains per day (10:57 from Cardiff, returning at 13:30, and about 1:30am-ish in and out of Fishguard to/from Swansea) that made up Fishguard's entire service until September 2011.

As for anthony263's suggestions:

1. Not enough 175s for a service that splits, and their lack of corridor connections make them inappropriate units for that anyway. I'd suggest 4x 153 (dropping 1 at Swansea, 1 at Carmarthen and splitting the other two for Milford and Fishguard) but there aren't enough of them either I expect.

2. I'm currently trying to work out a 1-unit Swansea District Line service*. One trip would be a relief to the 17:39 (going to Fishguard to remove the change at Clarbeston Road from the 17:39), but 17:27 doesn't work. If the times I've got here are correct a 17:27 express from Cardiff would catch up with the 17:18 service to Maesteg (both would arrive Bridgend at 17:45, which I'm sure the headway wouldn't allow). Even assuming you get that out of the way somehow, using the district line to it's full potential gets you to Llanelli at 18:27, where it would catch up with the 17:04 (off Cardiff) to Tenby and hence get stuck since the headways aren't short enough and 175s can't multi with sprinters. That leaves two options:
  1. 17:33 from Cardiff, which avoids catching up the Maesteg but also has problems when it catches the Tenby train and has oncoming traffic (in the form of 19:06 Carmarthen to Cardiff) to worry about on the approach to Carmarthen.
  2. 17:54 from Cardiff, which enables connections from Portsmouth (17:43?) and Paddington (17:46?) but then might get the 17:39 stuck behind it out of Llanelli.

The 17:39 is:

Llanelli dep. 19:00
P. & Burry Port 19:06
Carmarthen arr. 19:27
Carmarthen dep. 19:30

If departing CDF at 17:54, the district line train would be in Llanelli at 18:54 and might only just pass P. & B. Port by 19:00 to allow the 17:39 to leave Llanelli. The district line trains I propose would be non-stop Llanelli to Carmarthen though, with this one then arriving at 19:16, so just maybe it will stay far enough ahead of the 17:39 so as not to delay it. At Carmarthen, it would have to have a long dwell until the 17:39 from Cardiff (19:30 from Carmarthen) is far enough ahead for the district line train to follow (it'd have to wait for the 17:39 to reach Carmarthen so that passengers from Swansea can still reach Fishguard late, and unless you make the 17:39 a 158 as well they would be unable to work in multiple to Clarbeston Road).

*Using a 158 obtained by:
  • Removing the current pair of WAG expresses
  • Introducing a replacment pair of WAG expresses, in opposite directions (ie. one leaving Holyhead as the other is leaving Cardiff/Swansea), via Wrexham, using LHCS inc. the recently emerged DVTs
  • Using the 175 off WAG 2 to release a 150 from a normal Holyhead - Cardiff
  • Using that 150 to free up a 158 off the Maesteg branch (perhaps re-jig that to work through to/from Ebbw Vale instead of Cheltenham, with 150s running all services - that means any more 158s in the area would be left on the Cardiff - Cheltenham leg only)
That 158 would then run a morning district line service (I'm thinking 07:56 from Fishguard & Goodwick, replacing the 08:04 from Fishguard Harbour) from Pembrokeshire to Cardiff, then take the current express boat train to/from Fishguard before taking the 17:xx Cardiff to Fishguard in the evening. As a bonus, the 150 that currently works the Fishguard express boat train would then be available to plug most of the remaining 2-hour gaps in ATW's Cardiff - Cheltenham Spa service.
 

northwichcat

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When I first set up this thead back in September, I did not realise that it would still be receiving postings towards the end of December. I had the Class 185 units of First TPE in mind as an existing similar type of service run by 3-car units with a small amount of First Class accomodation, in comparison to the Class 175 units on the Manchester to South Wales routes, which are all quite long-distance routes, that do not offer this facility.

Really myself, driver9000 and Greenback summed up the answers to your questions in the first few posts of this thread.

I imagine if you gave all TPE passengers a vote of whether the 15 FC seats on a 185 should be replaced by around 22 standard class seats that most would vote for yes.
 

ValleyLines142

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No ferry to connect with at that time as far as I know. That 20:05 Clarbeston Road to Fishguard is one of our new services, in this case only for the folk of Goodwick or car drivers since the buses don't run that late at the moment. The only ferries left (Stena sold the 'Stena Lynx III' which has operated in previous summers) are the ones that have been served for years by the two trains per day (10:57 from Cardiff, returning at 13:30, and about 1:30am-ish in and out of Fishguard to/from Swansea) that made up Fishguard's entire service until September 2011.

Well, I'm not quite sure why it runs then :P probably your reasons above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
1. Not enough 175s for a service that splits, and their lack of corridor connections make them inappropriate units for that anyway. I'd suggest 4x 153 (dropping 1 at Swansea, 1 at Carmarthen and splitting the other two for Milford and Fishguard) but there aren't enough of them either I expect.

The 175s do lack corridor connections but some Sunday only services are double-formed, 1W23 1030 Carmarthen-Manchester is booked for a 6-car 175 (formed of two 3-car 175s) and 1B92 2015 Cardiff-Milford Haven is booked for a 4-car 175 (formed of two 2-car 175s).

The idea of using 158s is an option because 4-car diagrams are already in place on the Cambrian Coast Line (Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth/Pwllheli) and also they have corridor connections which would be suitable. 158s are also ‘suitable’ stock for long-distance journeys, such as on the Cambrian Coast Line and journeys such as Holyhead-Cardiff and Cardiff-West Wales. A 150 could be option also; however, I personally do not feel that these are suitable for journeys lasting over 2 hours, on main routes anyway (not Valley Lines as such because 150s do work on journeys of around an hour and a half such as Barry-Merthyr). I think a Swansea stopper is the maximum journey time for a 150, again on main lines.

I still think doubling a 175 could be a good idea, although I think a 4-car unit (i.e. two 2-car units) would be suitable, although there are only eleven 2-car units as opposed to sixteen 3-car units. I think the use of two 3-car units would be waste, I don’t think any service, including Sundays 1W23 and 1B92 should be that long, they’re not particularly busy when they go past my house on the South Wales Main Line near Cardiff. The only time it would be useful would be when there are events at the Millennium Stadium and there are more passengers expected.
 

Flamingo

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1430 Manchester Pic - Milford (1738 ex Cardiff) Its suffered chronic overcrowding since FGW pulled the 1728 Swansea bound HST.

Well, that was over four years ago. You would think that ATW (who, after all, are the TOC that have responsibility for train services within Wales) would have done something about it. The haven't, and that is where the complaints should be aimed.

The reason that train got pulled is that it was not a franchise requirement, and there was the ludicrous situation where FGW were providing the bulk of the commuter seats on the SWA-CDF line, while ATW took the bulk of the revenue. FGW was short of trains for journeys from London in the evenings, which ARE it's responsibility, and at the time it was being threatened with losing the franchise if it didn't improve.
 

tbtc

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[*]Introducing a replacment pair of WAG expresses, in opposite directions (ie. one leaving Holyhead as the other is leaving Cardiff/Swansea), via Wrexham, using LHCS inc. the recently emerged DVTs

If the current WAG Express can't be economically justified by the TOC (so needs a high subsidy), despite running into Cardiff in a good morning slot/ leaving Cardiff in a good rush hour slot) then I'd imagine even fewer people in Cardiff heading up to Holyhead for a day's business (no Assembly members doing it that way round).

ATW already requires the highest subsidy per passenger - without carting more fresh air around.
 
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...I'd imagine even fewer people in Cardiff heading up to Holyhead for a day's business (no Assembly members doing it that way round).

ATW already requires the highest subsidy per passenger - without carting more fresh air around.

Can we please stop assuming that AMs/MPs and MEPs etc are vital to the railnetwork.

There are only 60 AMs and only 13 of those are from North Wales and only a maximum of 8 of the Mid and West Wales members will find a train from the North useful.

As for the wider point about the public subsidy for this service, I'm in agreement with most on here - scrap it, it can not be justified in the slightest
 

jones_bangor

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Can we please stop assuming that AMs/MPs and MEPs etc are vital to the railnetwork.

There are only 60 AMs and only 13 of those are from North Wales and only a maximum of 8 of the Mid and West Wales members will find a train from the North useful.

As for the wider point about the public subsidy for this service, I'm in agreement with most on here - scrap it, it can not be justified in the slightest

It certainly can be justified - fortunately the decision is made by Welsh Government who have reiterated their support for this popular (yes, I actually use it!) service.

Wales has its own Government - this extends far beyond 60 AMs and the soon to be 30 MPs, so it's a bit naive to imply that the train service in question was created to cart politicians around.
 
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I'm sure it's popular, but personally I don't think it justifies the ridiculous public subsidy it attracts.

As for the Welsh Government, I assure you I'm fully aware of it, but the poster before me specifically mentioned AMs, rather than the army of civil servants spreed across the country - (side point, do they travel 1st class on this service?)

And the 40, soon to be 30 MPs have nothing to do with this service or its potential future.
 

tbtc

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Can we please stop assuming that AMs/MPs and MEPs etc are vital to the railnetwork.

There are only 60 AMs and only 13 of those are from North Wales and only a maximum of 8 of the Mid and West Wales members will find a train from the North useful

Who else uses the service from north Wales to south Wales though?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It certainly can be justified - fortunately the decision is made by Welsh Government who have reiterated their support for this popular (yes, I actually use it!) service

Popular as far as Chester/Crewe, and popular from Abergavenny into Cardiff (since it runs in the path of a service that did that route)... not the same as justifying the service from Holyhead to Cardiff.
 
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Who else uses the service from north Wales to south Wales though?

Plenty of businessmen/women, tourists and general members of the public use the route, but that doesn't justify the millions spent each year on half a first class carriage (around 18 seats). Lets not forget there are plenty of trains and connecting trains throughout the day from South Wales to North Wales.
 

jones_bangor

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Who else uses the service from north Wales to south Wales though?
Popular as far as Chester/Crewe, and popular from Abergavenny into Cardiff (since it runs in the path of a service that did that route)... not the same as justifying the service from Holyhead to Cardiff.

It's got lots of people on it who get on in North Wales and off again in Cardiff & vice versa.

Don't know about first class, I've not used it, and my personal view is that the restaurant is overkill. I don't think any public servants are allowed to use first anymore, but this may not apply to the "Executive" level ;)
 

anthony263

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I agree perhaps somewhat with the WAG express services however I think a 2 or 3 carriage 175 would be more than enough for them with the loco hauled sets better off being used on services between Swansea/Cardiff & Manchester
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Who else uses the service from north Wales to south Wales though?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well, I certainly used it before I retired (NHS) as it saved me and the taxpayer quite a bit of money (not having to have overnight stay in Cardiff etc) , I also knew other NHS employess from N Wales who used it (and would get on at stations up to Shrewsbury). Also used by coleagues from local authorities in North Wales and Bangor University. Whatever grievances I might have with IWJ I can't fault his intention to enable people to travel more easily from N to S Wales. In a country that is Cardiff-centric it had to be welcomed....and I know from personal experience for many years that the Cardiff based people did not like the 4 hour plus (road) journey to N Wales and so we had to go down there more often than not......of course, I didn't know then about ATW being heavily subsidised to run it....but I can tell you that there are far worse things that governments (London & Cardiff) spend their (our) money on!....but I haven't time to list them now!
 

tbtc

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Who else uses the service from north Wales to south Wales though?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well, I certainly used it before I retired (NHS) as it saved me and the taxpayer quite a bit of money (not having to have overnight stay in Cardiff etc) , I also knew other NHS employess from N Wales who used it (and would get on at stations up to Shrewsbury). Also used by coleagues from local authorities in North Wales and Bangor University. Whatever grievances I might have with IWJ I can't fault his intention to enable people to travel more easily from N to S Wales. In a country that is Cardiff-centric it had to be welcomed....and I know from personal experience for many years that the Cardiff based people did not like the 4 hour plus (road) journey to N Wales and so we had to go down there more often than not......of course, I didn't know then about ATW being heavily subsidised to run it....but I can tell you that there are far worse things that governments (London & Cardiff) spend their (our) money on!....but I haven't time to list them now!

Do you not think that there would be more benefit in trying to enhance services to Manchester/Liverpool instead though? Currently there are no services from North Wales to Liverpool, Wrexham gets one train a day to Manchester (late in the evening), Bangor has no Manchester service. These are the kind of links that I'd rather see prioritised (that people would use daily for work/leisure), instead of politicians trying to create/enhance "national identity".

It was always possible to travel from North Wales to Cardiff with one change (e.g. Crewe) just as fast as the direct services today, and there was one Wales & West direct service a day. The current service is overkill though.
 

jones_bangor

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Do you not think that there would be more benefit in trying to enhance services to Manchester/Liverpool instead though? Currently there are no services from North Wales to Liverpool, Wrexham gets one train a day to Manchester (late in the evening), Bangor has no Manchester service. These are the kind of links that I'd rather see prioritised (that people would use daily for work/leisure), instead of politicians trying to create/enhance "national identity".

It was always possible to travel from North Wales to Cardiff with one change (e.g. Crewe) just as fast as the direct services today, and there was one Wales & West direct service a day. The current service is overkill though.

Liverpool is within easy reach of North Wales...an easy change at Chester.

Of course the WG are trying to improve links between North and South - it's their patriotic duty to do so!

However, Wales is not a bubble, and I'd fully support extension of Gerald type service to North Wales - Manchester, Birmingham and South Wales - Manchester.

I have often wondered why Manchester services serve Llandudno rather than head on to Holyhead....
 

PHILIPE

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The pattern of service. Birminghams and Cardiffs serve Holyjead and Manchesters serve Llandudno. Easy to change and connect and frequent services. You could apply this the other was and ask why Birminghams and Cardiffs don't go to Llandudno. VT also serve Holyhead.
 

ValleyLines142

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The pattern of service. Birminghams and Cardiffs serve Holyjead and Manchesters serve Llandudno. Easy to change and connect and frequent services. You could apply this the other was and ask why Birminghams and Cardiffs don't go to Llandudno. VT also serve Holyhead.

You're absolutely right. All of these require a simple change at Chester.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Do you not think that there would be more benefit in trying to enhance services to Manchester/Liverpool instead though? Currently there are no services from North Wales to Liverpool, Wrexham gets one train a day to Manchester (late in the evening), Bangor has no Manchester service. These are the kind of links that I'd rather see prioritised (that people would use daily for work/leisure), instead of politicians trying to create/enhance "national identity".

It was always possible to travel from North Wales to Cardiff with one change (e.g. Crewe) just as fast as the direct services today, and there was one Wales & West direct service a day. The current service is overkill though.

Agreee with some of your points ( need better through services with Manchester/Liverpool) and that there are perhaps too many direct services to Cardiff throughout the day but strongly disagree about politicians trying to create a national identity....it's probably (definately!) not for this thread but over the last few years I think there has been more written about the English struggling for their 'identitiy' (rather than the Welsh & Scots)....incidentally, some of my colleagues in England were envious of our structures in the NHS, because by being a small nation, we could (for good or ill) be seen to be influencing govt policy....anyway not for this thread!!!!

Back to rail - I could live with a couple of early morning direct trains to the capital and return in the evening, with a change at Chester or Crewe for the rest, but remember if the change is at Crewe then the Wrexham end may be upset unless they have their own direct service!
 

tbtc

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Liverpool is within easy reach of North Wales...an easy change at Chester

Holyhead has always been within easy reach of Cardiff, with one simple change at Crewe. And I know which of the two services would be busier, and therefore deserve the direct service ;)
 
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150222

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Cardiff has always been within easy reach of Cardiff, with one simple change at Crewe. And I know which of the two services would be busier, and therefore deserve the direct service ;)



Like to take the long way round do you? :)
 

Rhydgaled

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I'm sure it's popular, but personally I don't think it justifies the ridiculous public subsidy it attracts.
I've been led to believe by the numbers, and somebody on here (merlodlliw I think), that the subsidy the WAG express attracts is very close the actual cost of running the service (ie. the fare revenue it generates is not taken into account, and ATW get to keep all the fares revenue for a service that covers it's cost (to them) even if it ran empty). If true, that's the fault of privatisation, not WAG or the service.

I've also been told in the past that the WAG express subsidy of £1.7m (so a few years ago now) translated at about £6.30 per passenger. Call that a scandal if you like, but I don't. Now, around £57.70 subsidy per passenger to an unsustainable mode of transport (air) is what I call a scandal. I am of course talking about Ieuan Air, working on an assumption of 19 passengers, twice a day, 365 days a year. Divide the £800,000 annual subsidy by those 13,870 passengers and you get the above £57.70 figure.

Now, I don't have up-to-date figures for the train, but with the subsidy increase to £1,200,000 for Ieuan Air, and the same number of passengers, that's £86.50 per passenger. £6.30 per passenger for Gerald starting to look like good value yet? If you take into account the £400,000 a year the Assembly Government pays to operate Anglesey Airport as well that brings the £800,000 figure up to £1.2m and the larger figure to £1,600,000 (or a massive £115 per passenger!).

I am dreadful at maths though, so please feel free to double-check my figures.

If the current WAG Express can't be economically justified by the TOC (so needs a high subsidy), despite running into Cardiff in a good morning slot/ leaving Cardiff in a good rush hour slot) then I'd imagine even fewer people in Cardiff heading up to Holyhead for a day's business (no Assembly members doing it that way round).

ATW already requires the highest subsidy per passenger - without carting more fresh air around.

There are currently two express services from Holyhead to Cardiff, one via Wrexham, one via Crewe, in the same direction morning and evening, with no express service going the other way. In my opinion, only one of them should be retained (running via Wrexham with a DVT or DBSO) but rather than drop the other altogether I'd suggest a mirror service. Same cost, more balanced service.

The 16:15 from Cardiff seems to be well used (at least in standard), both from my two experiences and comments on here. If the same cannot be said of the morning service, then I'd suggest dropping that but still having a 16:15ish express from both Holyhead and Cardiff.

Popular as far as Chester/Crewe, and popular from Abergavenny into Cardiff (since it runs in the path of a service that did that route)... not the same as justifying the service from Holyhead to Cardiff.

Does anyone use either WAG express FROM Abergavenny TO Cardiff? I thought the southbound trains were both non-stop from Shrewsbury to Newport.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
p.s.
Despite supporting a single pair of Holyhead - Cardiff express services, I do agree that the Holyhead - Cardiff service is over-provided considering the lack of links from Holyhead/Wrexham to Manchester/Crewe/Liverpool. However, it is the normal 2-hourly franchise service that I think should be changed, so that:
  • Holyhead - Cardiff is served by 2 (perhaps 3) expresses each way and a change at Chester, Shrewsbury or Crewe is required the rest of the day.
  • The 2-hourly Cardiff - Holyhead slows are replaced by:
    • Cardiff - Wrexham - Chester - Crewe - Shrewsbury/Cardiff (and vise-versa) trains and
    • Holyhead - Crewe (Manchester if there are spare paths) services
ATW probablly don't have enough stock in service for that as things stand, but I'd very much like to see LHCS on Manchester - Swansea/Carmarthen trains. That might provide enough 175 cascades to make some sense of the rest of the ATW network of services.
 

ValleyLines142

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Does anyone use either WAG express FROM Abergavenny TO Cardiff? I thought the southbound trains were both non-stop from Shrewsbury.

The southbound one does but the northbound one calls at Cwmbran at 1640 and Abergavenny at 1654.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Despite supporting a single pair of Holyhead - Cardiff express services, I do agree that the Holyhead - Cardiff service is over-provided considering the lack of links from Holyhead/Wrexham to Manchester/Crewe/Liverpool. However, it is the normal 2-hourly franchise service that I think should be changed, so that:
  • Holyhead - Cardiff is served by 2 (perhaps 3) expresses each way and a change at Chester, Shrewsbury or Crewe is required the rest of the day.
  • The 2-hourly Cardiff - Holyhead slows are replaced by:
    • Cardiff - Wrexham - Chester - Crewe - Shrewsbury/Cardiff (and vise-versa) trains and
    • Holyhead - Crewe (Manchester if there are spare paths) services
ATW probablly don't have enough stock in service for that as things stand, but I'd very much like to see LHCS on Manchester - Swansea/Carmarthen trains. That might provide enough 175 cascades to make some sense of the rest of the ATW network of services.

See I think the Cardiff-Holyhead is useful, because it provides a direct link to the ferries at Holyhead port, and also provides a link to popular towns/cities such as Bangor, Llandudno Junction (for Llandudno), Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint, Chester (important link - especially for services to Liverpool) and Wrexham. There's only about eight services a day anyway. Also if you changed it you would also have to change the Birmingham-Holyhead service as well because Cardiff and Birmingham alternate hourly.
 
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merlodlliw

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Wrexham/ Denbighshire /Flintshire triangle
I've been led to believe by the numbers, and somebody on here (merlodlliw I think), that the subsidy the WAG express attracts is very close the actual cost of running the service (ie. the fare revenue it generates is not taken into account, and ATW get to keep all the fares revenue for a service that covers it's cost (to them) even if it ran empty). If true, that's the fault of privatisation, not WAG or the service.

I've also been told in the past that the WAG express subsidy of £1.7m (so a few years ago now) translated at about £6.30 per passenger. Call that a scandal if you like, but I don't. Now, around £57.70 subsidy per passenger to an unsustainable mode of transport (air) is what I call a scandal. I am of course talking about Ieuan Air, working on an assumption of 19 passengers, twice a day, 365 days a year. Divide the £800,000 annual subsidy by those 13,870 passengers and you get the above £57.70 figure.

Now, I don't have up-to-date figures for the train, but with the subsidy increase to £1,200,000 for Ieuan Air, and the same number of passengers, that's £86.50 per passenger. £6.30 per passenger for Gerald starting to look like good value yet? If you take into account the £400,000 a year the Assembly Government pays to operate Anglesey Airport as well that brings the £800,000 figure up to £1.2m and the larger figure to £1,600,000 (or a massive £115 per passenger!).

I am dreadful at maths though, so please feel free to double-check my figures.



There are currently two express services from Holyhead to Cardiff, one via Wrexham, one via Crewe, in the same direction morning and evening, with no express service going the other way. In my opinion, only one of them should be retained (running via Wrexham with a DVT or DBSO) but rather than drop the other altogether I'd suggest a mirror service. Same cost, more balanced service.

The 16:15 from Cardiff seems to be well used (at least in standard), both from my two experiences and comments on here. If the same cannot be said of the morning service, then I'd suggest dropping that but still having a 16:15ish express from both Holyhead and Cardiff.



Does anyone use either WAG express FROM Abergavenny TO Cardiff? I thought the southbound trains were both non-stop from Shrewsbury to Newport.
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1,Your figure's are about correct, plus whatever WG is paying for WAG2
last year it was £625K for a 2 coach 175 for half a year.

2.The 16.15 WAG1 Northbound, replaced a local stopper for the path,that
is why it is busy to Abergavenny.

3.With a half empty WG office complex at Llandudno Junction costing £millions, built to curtail travel, why should you need a morning Northbound WAG Ex. Otherwise why build these extensions of Cardiff Bay.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Who else uses the service from north Wales to south Wales though?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well, I certainly used it before I retired (NHS) as it saved me and the taxpayer quite a bit of money (not having to have overnight stay in Cardiff etc) , I also knew other NHS employess from N Wales who used it (and would get on at stations up to Shrewsbury). Also used by coleagues from local authorities in North Wales and Bangor University. Whatever grievances I might have with IWJ I can't fault his intention to enable people to travel more easily from N to S Wales. In a country that is Cardiff-centric it had to be welcomed....and I know from personal experience for many years that the Cardiff based people did not like the 4 hour plus (road) journey to N Wales and so we had to go down there more often than not......of course, I didn't know then about ATW being heavily subsidised to run it....but I can tell you that there are far worse things that governments (London & Cardiff) spend their (our) money on!....but I haven't time to list them now!

I have no argument with you, you always put reasoned responses that are
well meant.
I note all of those travelling you mentioned were from the Statutory Sector, not one from the private sector.
I will agree with you, those in South Wales do not like to travel North,a few years ago we used to have meetings in Shrewsbury,semi half way house that suited everyone, but alas Shrewsbury is in England,out of bounds to Politicians thinking now even though its Rail Station is managed via Cardiff Bay.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've been led to believe by the numbers, and somebody on here (merlodlliw I think), that the subsidy the WAG express attracts is very close the actual cost of running the service (ie. the fare revenue it generates is not taken into account, and ATW get to keep all the fares revenue for a service that covers it's cost (to them) even if it ran empty). If true, that's the fault of privatisation, not WAG or the service.

I've also been told in the past that the WAG express subsidy of £1.7m (so a few years ago now) translated at about £6.30 per passenger. Call that a scandal if you like, but I don't. Now, around £57.70 subsidy per passenger to an unsustainable mode of transport (air) is what I call a scandal. I am of course talking about Ieuan Air, working on an assumption of 19 passengers, twice a day, 365 days a year. Divide the £800,000 annual subsidy by those 13,870 passengers and you get the above £57.70 figure.

Now, I don't have up-to-date figures for the train, but with the subsidy increase to £1,200,000 for Ieuan Air, and the same number of passengers, that's £86.50 per passenger. £6.30 per passenger for Gerald starting to look like good value yet? If you take into account the £400,000 a year the Assembly Government pays to operate Anglesey Airport as well that brings the £800,000 figure up to £1.2m and the larger figure to £1,600,000 (or a massive £115 per passenger!).

I am dreadful at maths though, so please feel free to double-check my figures.



There are currently two express services from Holyhead to Cardiff, one via Wrexham, one via Crewe, in the same direction morning and evening, with no express service going the other way. In my opinion, only one of them should be retained (running via Wrexham with a DVT or DBSO) but rather than drop the other altogether I'd suggest a mirror service. Same cost, more balanced service.

The 16:15 from Cardiff seems to be well used (at least in standard), both from my two experiences and comments on here. If the same cannot be said of the morning service, then I'd suggest dropping that but still having a 16:15ish express from both Holyhead and Cardiff.



Does anyone use either WAG express FROM Abergavenny TO Cardiff? I thought the southbound trains were both non-stop from Shrewsbury to Newport.
..................................................................................................................................................................................................................
1,Your figure's are about correct, plus whatever WG is paying for WAG2
last year it was £625K for a 2 coach 175 for half a year.

2.The 16.15 WAG1 Northbound, replaced a local stopper for the path,that
is why it is busy to Abergavenny.

3.With a half empty WG office complex at Llandudno Junction costing £millions, built to curtail travel, why should you need a morning Northbound WAG Ex. Otherwise why build these extensions of Cardiff Bay.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have no argument with you, you always put reasoned responses that are
well meant.
I note all of those travelling you mentioned were from the Statutory Sector, not one from the private sector.
I will agree with you, those in South Wales do not like to travel North,a few years ago we used to have meetings in Shrewsbury,semi half way house that suited everyone, but alas Shrewsbury is in England,out of bounds to Politicians thinking now , even though its Rail Station is managed via Cardiff Bay.
 
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tbtc

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I've been led to believe by the numbers, and somebody on here (merlodlliw I think), that the subsidy the WAG express attracts is very close the actual cost of running the service (ie. the fare revenue it generates is not taken into account, and ATW get to keep all the fares revenue for a service that covers it's cost (to them) even if it ran empty). If true, that's the fault of privatisation, not WAG or the service

If that's true (which I have no reason to doubt) then perhaps that's an indication that ATW thought that the WAG Express would just abstract passengers from other services (and not attract new passengers)?

Apologies re the Abergavenny quote - I should have referred to it northbound only (though there are obviously a few busy stations between Shrewsbury and Newport which are omitted southbound) - as it directly replaced a northbound Abergavenny service.
 
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