Avanti - forced to excess fare

[SWT_USER]

I was travelling from London to Liverpool yesterday on an off peak return with a two together railcard.

Unfortunately the other half of my railcard caught Covid and so couldn't travel. This was no problem on the outward leg - I explained the situation to barrier staff at Euston, presented both tickets and the railcard and was allowed to travel.

On the return leg the staff at Lime Street would not let me through, and I was forced to pay £32.15 to excess the ticket.

Couple of questions - firstly were they right to do this? I had both tickets and the railcard so not a case of passing the ticket for anyone else to use. In fact the railway had more money than they would have done otherwise as an off-peak return with no railcard is cheaper than two returns with a two together railcard.

Secondly - in view of the above am I entitled to a refund on the unused ticket?

 

[jfollows]

Yes, they were right, and there have been a few threads here on the subject, including ones in which a refund of some sort was sometimes obtained, however you may not have a right to one but it can do no harm to ask.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While it would make immense sense to allow it, you're not allowed to travel with both tickets and the Railcard, unfortunately. You're not even entitled to "excess away" a Railcard discount, so what happened was that you were offered discretion in two different ways, which has been to your cost. This demonstrates why staff letting people off with things is not always the right approach as it can cause greater issues later.

Officially, you should have been sold a new ticket and had to seek a refund for the two discounted ones, minus £10 admin fee on each. This would actually have been your easiest one to deal with, as unused walk up tickets are always refundable even for a period after their expiry (a month? I forget.)

I think as things stand a refund on one of them should be due less a £10 admin fee, but you might find it hard to obtain as it is quite a complex case - Two Together tickets are sold as a pair, and it might be quite difficult to get only one of them refunded.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I can do the first question: see item 4.4 in the Terms & Conditions (https://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk/help/terms-conditions/)

4.4. Discounted tickets must be bought for both cardholders at the same time, and you must travel together.

Question 2 - dunno. I'll be interested to see the forum's consensus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Question 2 - dunno. I'll be interested to see the forum's consensus.

To the OP, did you buy the tickets from Avanti West Coast or somewhere else? It might be easier if you're only having to deal with one customer service department, given that "unused ticket" refunds usually come from the retailer, but the likes of Trainline aren't going to have any truck with this.

 

[SWT_USER]

To the OP, did you buy the tickets from Avanti West Coast or somewhere else? It might be easier if you're only having to deal with one customer service department, given that "unused ticket" refunds usually come from the retailer, but the likes of Trainline aren't going to have any truck with this.

Thanks for the responses.

Tickets were bought from the Avanti website so it sounds like it is worth contacting customer services.

Is there an obvious rationale for not allowing travel with the original tickets in these circumstances?

 

[jfollows]

Is there an obvious rationale for not allowing travel with the original tickets in these circumstances?

I can see the rationale being that the railcard caters for a certain type of traveller making a certain type of trip, and broadening its scope would at least be unknown on its impact on revenue it not negative.

I've come across this before: if I want to go on a day trip with the other person named but we might split up and come back separately I know I can't use the railcard.

The same sort of restriction applied before the railcard and also now with "Duo" tickets sold by Northern.

You can rightly make an argument for the rules being different, I agree, but they're not and they're reasonably clearly stated.

 

[spyinthesky]

In the circumstances it probably would’ve been best to refund both tickets and purchase a new one for yourself.
No harm in trying for a refund though

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there an obvious rationale for not allowing travel with the original tickets in these circumstances?

I think it's just something they didn't really think of. They can't do it with Family and Friends Railcards as one adult plus one child is cheaper than one adult alone, but for these they could have done.

Yes, I'd go through Customer Services with a clear explanation of what happened, and explaining that you believe it should mean one of the two original tickets is refunded minus a £10 admin fee.

 

[SWT_USER]

While it would make immense sense to allow it, you're not allowed to travel with both tickets and the Railcard, unfortunately. You're not even entitled to "excess away" a Railcard discount, so what happened was that you were offered discretion in two different ways, which has been to your cost. This demonstrates why staff letting people off with things is not always the right approach as it can cause greater issues later.

Officially, you should have been sold a new ticket and had to seek a refund for the two discounted ones, minus £10 admin fee on each. This would actually have been your easiest one to deal with, as unused walk up tickets are always refundable even for a period after their expiry (a month? I forget.)

I think as things stand a refund on one of them should be due less a £10 admin fee, but you might find it hard to obtain as it is quite a complex case - Two Together tickets are sold as a pair, and it might be quite difficult to get only one of them refunded.

Interesting, thanks. I understand this is the case on the train but I thought before travel this was treated the same as buying a ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting, thanks. I understand this is the case on the train but I thought before travel this was treated the same as buying a ticket.

It's not an entitled excess. Some booking offices will do it, but some won't. You can shop around to get it, though.

I've seen it done a number of times including onboard. Much easier to get than a zero-fare overdistance (also not an entitled excess) which I've tried multiple times and even found in one case a booking office who preferred to non-issue the original ticket and issue a replacement despite it having been used and been through two gatelines!

 

[island]

You were treated more leniently than a strict interpretation of the rules which would have been that your tickets are invalid without both cardholders' presence and a new single ticket would need to have been purchased for £66.10.

Properly speaking, at the very outset you should have been advised to purchase a new undiscounted ticket and submit the two discounted tickets for refund. You would have been refunded £114.70 and bought a new ticket for £94.50.

However, we now are where we are, as the saying goes, and you have:

• one used full price ticket (having been converted by the excess fare)
• one unused discounted ticket

Assuming you are still within the 28 days to refund the latter, you are entitled to have a refund of £52.35 for that unused ticket from the retailer, which will, I think, put you back in the situation you would have been in if what I described in the "properly speaking" paragraph had happened.

I suggest writing to (or emailing) the retailer with a succinct explanation and copies of all the tickets, including the excess.

 

[robbeech]

I would certainly contact customer services. Can you remember the exact conversation you had with the first guard when they gave you permission to travel? It would be grossly unfair imo to be made to pay extra if for example the guard who let you travel didn’t say something like “I’m happy to let you travel but you might have trouble on the way back”. If they’ve accepted it as if it were perfectly ok to do that then I’d say Avanti ought to refund your excess.

Were you tickets e-tickets or paper ones, where were they scanned, did you scan the same one if the pair each time etc. you’ll need to present screen shots / photos in any correspondence.

 

[SWT_USER]

Thanks again everyone. I have emailed customer services with an explanation and copies of the tickets and the railcard. Fingers crossed for something back!

These were E tickets issued by Avanti so they should be able to see that one set wont have been scanned.

I would certainly contact customer services. Can you remember the exact conversation you had with the first guard when they gave you permission to travel? It would be grossly unfair imo to be made to pay extra if for example the guard who let you travel didn’t say something like “I’m happy to let you travel but you might have trouble on the way back”. If they’ve accepted it as if it were perfectly ok to do that then I’d say Avanti ought to refund your excess.

Were you tickets e-tickets or paper ones, where were they scanned, did you scan the same one if the pair each time etc. you’ll need to present screen shots / photos in any correspondence.

It wasn't a guard, just Euston barrier staff. There were no on train checks in either direction. Not sure the chap was even listening really he just scanned a ticket and nodded me through. There were lots of people and it was busy so probably just trying to get me out of the way!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn't a guard, just Euston barrier staff. There were no on train checks in either direction. Not sure the chap was even listening really he just scanned a ticket and nodded me through. There were lots of people and it was busy so probably just trying to get me out of the way!

Wow. Unusual for them to let an invalid ticket past, perhaps they are paying too much attention to trying to work out ways to stop people whose tickets are valid!

 

[Haywain]

Wow. Unusual for them to let an invalid ticket past, perhaps they are paying too much attention to trying to work out ways to stop people whose tickets are valid!

Sounds like they allowed past a ticket that they wouldn't have really known was not valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like they allowed past a ticket that they wouldn't have really known was not valid.

Quite possibly they thought one person was producing both tickets for two people, as would be very common for a couple, and didn't twig the absence of the second person.

 

[robbeech]

Sounds like they allowed past a ticket that they wouldn't have really known was not valid.

They seem to (think they) know enough about lots of other tickets. Some still haven't grasps the differing evening restrictions (or lack of) on a Friday yet.

I must say it is disappointing but not in any way surprising that they have authority to stop you travelling yet simultaneously no authority to let you travel. You could fully understand if the staff had miss understood the number of people travelling but if you did try to explain and they were uninterested .......

 

[The exile]

Quite possibly they thought one person was producing both tickets for two people, as would be very common for a couple, and didn't twig the absence of the second person.

Admittedly it would be difficult at a terminus at separate gate lines but it would be perfectly possible for the second person never to pass through the barrier, having arrived at the ticket’s originating station by train from elsewhere.

 

[becky_rtw]

This is interesting given these tickets usually work fine in barriers (we use a two together railcard all the time). In fact used it on Saturday night into London and then on the tube. And again recently long distance via Kings Cross to Worksop.

Maybe Avanti/Euston have different barrier settings? Which is a bit of weirdness given you can only have the railcard on one persons phone and quite often you get spilt up at barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is interesting given these tickets usually work fine in barriers (we use a two together railcard all the time). In fact used it on Saturday night into London and then on the tube. And again recently long distance via Kings Cross to Worksop.

Maybe Avanti/Euston have different barrier settings? Which is a bit of weirdness given you can only have the railcard on one persons phone and quite often you get spilt up at barriers.

It was the return leg from Liverpool where it was caught out, and the platforms Avanti use there aren't gated so it will have been a manual check.

In any case at Euston only 1-3 and 8-11 are gated, the project to do all platforms seems to have stopped.

 

[becky_rtw]

It was the return leg from Liverpool where it was caught out, and the platforms Avanti use there aren't gated so it will have been a manual check.

In any case at Euston only 1-3 and 8-11 are gated, the project to do all platforms seems to have stopped.

Ah okay sorry apologies. Makes more sense now.

 

[SWT_USER]

I think as things stand a refund on one of them should be due less a £10 admin fee, but you might find it hard to obtain as it is quite a complex case - Two Together tickets are sold as a pair, and it might be quite difficult to get only one of them refunded.

This is how it turned out, a refund on the unused ticket minus admin fee. Interestingly though they refunded a Family and Friends Railcard ticket (part of the same booking) which cost the same, so maybe it is difficult to refund only one two-together railcard ticket.

I accept the T&C's don't allow the individual to travel even with both tickets and the railcard, although instead of being pragmatic the railway has made things inconvenient for me in having to excess, and lost themselves some revenue in refunding the ticket, as we wouldn't have bothered if we'd been allowed to travel. It all seems a bit of a waste of everyone's time.

I am happy with the outcome, and thank you for all the input on here.

 

[Class800]

Good you were satisfied - given the person tested positive, I would be dissatisfied personally that a more favourable offer was not made - but the main thing is you are satisfied. We always try to be helpful here

 

[londonbridge]

I've come across this before: if I want to go on a day trip with the other person named but we might split up and come back separately I know I can't use the railcard.

The same sort of restriction applied before the railcard and also now with "Duo" tickets sold by Northern.

Along similar lines, before the pandemic I was going to a family funeral in Whitstable. Four of my relatives travelled from Victoria on a groupsave, I had a separate ticket and joined them on the train at Bromley South. After the service two of them were discussing travelling back on a later train than the other two, I had to warn them against doing so as they hadnt realised they all had to travel together in order for the ticket to be valid.