Avanti gateline staff at Crewe - Break of journey

[Grumpy Git]

An Avanti uniformed gateline staff member at Crewe station would not let me through the barriers yesterday with my Off-Peak Day Return (B5) ticket, Acton Bridge to Derby (via Stoke on Trent).

He looked at my ticket and said (and I'm not joking); 'You can only break your journey at Stoke on Trent' I tried to put my case to him politely, but no, there was no way he was going to let me out!

I had to ask another gateline member of staff, who opened the barrier.

Who trains these people?

 

[yorkie]

An Avanti uniformed gateline staff member at Crewe station would not let me through the barriers yesterday with my Off-Peak Day Return (B5) ticket, Acton Bridge to Derby (via Stoke on Trent).

He looked at my ticket and said (and I'm not joking); 'You can only break your journey at Stoke on Trent' I tried to put my case to him politely, but no, there was no way he was going to let me out!

I had to ask another gateline member of staff, who opened the barrier.

Who trains these people?

Such behaviour from gateline staff is not as unusual as it should be, unfortunately.

Train companies such as Avanti have insufficient safeguards in place to avoid such behaviour; training is inadequate and there are insufficient checks, such as 'mystery shopping ' to ensure appropriate actions and behaviour are carried out by the staff.

This sort of behaviour is unfortunately endemic in the industry.

You could complain to Avanti, but I don't have any faith in the company actually doing anything about it; the company isn't exactly customer focussed after all. If you do complain, let us know how you get on.

 

[Watershed]

Unfortunately gateline staff are given very little training on ticket validity. I suppose it's assumed that it will just be "obvious" when a ticket is or isn't valid - of course, as those who read the Fares Advice and Disputes & Prosecutions sections of the forum will know, that is far from being the case!

You should raise a complaint with Avanti but expect very little in way of a real outcome.

 

[Grumpy Git]

In this case it caused me no harm (as I knew I was in the right), but if I had told my daughter to do this and they had refused, she would probably have accepted their refusal (and subsequently paid the inflated station prices for her breakfast)?

For anyone not aware, there is a Greggs two minutes walk from the main entrance at Crewe on Weston Road just beyond the station car park and their £3.40 bacon roll and hot drink deal is an absolute bargain. The staff are always top notch too in my experience.

 

[TheJester]

Such behaviour from gateline staff is not as unusual as it should be, unfortunately.

Train companies such as Avanti have insufficient safeguards in place to avoid such behaviour; training is inadequate and there are insufficient checks, such as 'mystery shopping ' to ensure appropriate actions and behaviour are carried out by the staff.

This sort of behaviour is unfortunately endemic in the industry.

So what can we do to stop it being endemic?
The wrongly-informed gate staff will be incorrectly penalising people who validly break their journey.

 

[185]

So what can we do to stop it being endemic?

The elected govt & Mr Bailey of the DfT should've hired a company that properly trains it's staff like their predecessor did.

 

[Watershed]

So what can we do to stop it being endemic?
The wrongly-informed gate staff will be incorrectly penalising people who validly break their journey.

Realistically, nothing. The ORR isn't interested (there are much worse and more flagrant breaches of contract and of consumer law that they turn a blind eye to), the Ombudsman is a lapdog for the TOCs, and it's too niche and minor an issue for MPs to take any interest.

You could complain and ultimately sue the relevant TOC, but that won't effect general change. You'd need to apply for some sort of injunction to do that - and the costs of doing so (which would not necessarily be recoverable) would be totally disproportionate to the amount at stake.

 

[yorkie]

So what can we do to stop it being endemic?
The wrongly-informed gate staff will be incorrectly penalising people who validly break their journey.

Probably nothing we can do.

A complaint should be made to Avanti but I don't trust Avanti to do anything to prevent this sort of thing happening in future.

 

[swt_passenger]

The elected govt & Mr Bailey of the DfT should've hired a company that properly trains it's staff like their predecessor did.

You mean Virgin Trains? They were well known here for making up their own rules, IIRC their staff‘s waffle was regularly discussed here over the years. “The conditions of carriage don’t apply to us, we’re Virgin Trains”?

 

[Sonic1234]

As much as I can see the value of ticket gates, there is something to be said for ungated stations.

If gateline staff don't know the validity of tickets, they should give the customer the benefit of the doubt and let them through. Unfortunately, few customers break their journeys so staff don't have experience of it (see the issues with TfL staff).

 

[Haywain]

The elected govt & Mr Bailey of the DfT should've hired a company that properly trains it's staff like their predecessor did.

This is widespread across the industry, not restricted to one company, and I don't believe the level of training makes much difference. It has been going on for many years and can be found in roles which get much better training than poorly paid gateline staff. Unfortunately, peer pressure seems to be particularly effective against those who start out trying to do the job well.

 

[BJames]

It's been mentioned on here before that using the phrase 'I want to break my journey' doesn't always yield the result you're after, while saying 'can I just pop out for [insert whatever - smoke/coffee etc]' may be more effective.

It's funny how the gateline staff are so inconsistent amongst themselves as well, I've had similar with not being let through at Paddington because the train wasn't ready (it was on the board) while her colleague was actively encouraging us through open gates at the other end of the P2-3 gateline...

 

[Kite159]

I wonder if it was the same gentleman who tried to get me to put a paper ticket from Liverpool into the barrier, even when I explained that I had been delayed (as the previous Avanti train had been cancelled).

Complaining to Avanti customer services will be a total waste of time in my eyes. You will get brushed off with a response which will either ignore the points raised or try and claim the member of staff was correct and you were wrong.

 

[Watershed]

It's been mentioned on here before that using the phrase 'I want to break my journey' doesn't always yield the result you're after, while saying 'can I just pop out for [insert whatever - smoke/coffee etc]' may be more effective.

It's funny how the gateline staff are so inconsistent amongst themselves as well, I've had similar with not being let through at Paddington because the train wasn't ready (it was on the board) while her colleague was actively encouraging us through open gates at the other end of the P2-3 gateline...

Yes, personally speaking I've never had problems breaking my journey at Crewe, having done so countless times.

I usually just present my ticket (after it's inevitably been rejected by the barrier), I'll get asked whether I'm "just going out"/"just been out", and then I just say "yes" rather than overcomplicating things.

Of course, that's not to say that I don't believe the OP's account or that there isn't a general problem with the training and oversight of gateline staff. But there are ways and means around it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The elected govt & Mr Bailey of the DfT should've hired a company that properly trains it's staff like their predecessor did.

Which company was that?

 

[BJames]

Yes, personally speaking I've never had problems breaking my journey at Crewe, having done so countless times.

I usually just present my ticket (after it's inevitably been rejected by the barrier), I'll get asked whether I'm "just going out"/"just been out", and then I just say "yes" rather than overcomplicating things.

Of course, that's not to say that I don't believe the OP's account or that there isn't a general problem with the training and oversight of gateline staff. But there are ways and means around it.

Oh of course, it shouldn't have to be this way. And many would just take what the staff say at face value and assume this isn't valid, which is very frustrating.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Yes, personally speaking I've never had problems breaking my journey at Crewe, having done so countless times.

Neither have I.

I travel this route on a semi regular basis with the same ticket type and now has a 52 minute lay over due to the LMR ex-Liverpool being retimed by 30 minutes. The first time I tried using my ticket, the staff member told me as it didn't state 'Crewe' on the ticket it wouldn't operate them and they let me out. This is the first time a staff member has refused my request.

 

[zero]

As much as I can see the value of ticket gates, there is something to be said for ungated stations.

If gateline staff don't know the validity of tickets, they should give the customer the benefit of the doubt and let them through. Unfortunately, few customers break their journeys so staff don't have experience of it (see the issues with TfL staff).

I agree, but this member of staff "knew" the validity, it was just that their knowledge was wrong.

 

[abbo1234]

I had 15 minutes wait on a single advance from Bradford to Wigan, change at Rochdale. I asked the barrier staff if i could nip out for a smoke, showed my ticket and he said no.
I walked to the end of the platform and lit up, i know i should not, but oh well.
After about 30 seconds a Northern member of staff told me to go out of the station. I told him that the gate line staff said no. He muttered something about being useless and let me through.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Which company was that?

BR obviously

 

[greyman42]

Unfortunately gateline staff are given very little training on ticket validity. I suppose it's assumed that it will just be "obvious" when a ticket is or isn't valid - of course, as those who read the Fares Advice and Disputes & Prosecutions sections of the forum will know, that is far from being the case!

Given that the staff must be aware that they have had little training, why don't they just give the customer the benefit of the doubt and let them through. It is not as if they did not have a ticket at all?

 

[yorkie]

Given that the staff must be aware that they have had little training, why don't they just give the customer the benefit of the doubt and let them through. It is not as if they did not have a ticket at all?

Some people just don't think in a customer-focussed manner, in the way that other people would do. Not everyone can see the bigger picture and not everyone takes pride in the job they do.

There are people in customer-facing roles who aren't really suited to the role unfortunately.

 

[SteveM70]

Given that the staff must be aware that they have had little training

Are they?

If you walk into a new role and are given a training course, how do you know its only partial, unless you're specifically told?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are they?

If you walk into a new role and are given a training course, how do you know its only partial, unless you're specifically told?

And more to the point, the approach to someone challenging whether you're right or not is to check your facts either with a more senior member of staff or "The Manual" etc, not entrench yourself further.

 

[35B]

Given that the staff must be aware that they have had little training, why don't they just give the customer the benefit of the doubt and let them through. It is not as if they did not have a ticket at all?

Surely it depends on what they're taught? And if the message is that their job is to prevent people misusing tickets, how is that going to fit with giving the customer the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Watershed]

Surely it depends on what they're taught? And if the message is that their job is to prevent people misusing tickets, how is that going to fit with giving the customer the benefit of the doubt.

There is a difference between someone whose ticket is obviously not valid and cases where the member of staff isn't sure or only has suspicions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a difference between someone whose ticket is obviously not valid and cases where the member of staff isn't sure or only has suspicions.

And with Break of Journey no longer defined it should revert to the "man on the Clapham omnibus" definition, which doesn't involve banning people from popping outside for a fag when changing trains and still taking the next appropriate or booked train from that station.

 

[greyman42]

Are they?

If you walk into a new role and are given a training course, how do you know its only partial, unless you're specifically told?

If they come across tickets that they are not familiar with then it should be obvious that their training was only partial.

And with Break of Journey no longer defined it should revert to the "man on the Clapham omnibus" definition, which doesn't involve banning people from popping outside for a fag when changing trains and still taking the next appropriate or booked train from that station.

That sounds like the common sense approach.

 

[Haywain]

If they come across tickets that they are not familiar with then it should be obvious that their training was only partial.

You have great faith in the precision of the limited training they might receive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have great faith in the precision of the limited training they might receive.

It should clearly include "if you don't know, don't assume, check", though, as should any auditing that takes place. If not, it's bad training.