Avanti kicking disabled pax out of their reserved seats so they can be taken by "celebs"....or at least people who think they are celebs

[Doctor Pepper]

Just read the following on Twitter...

Good morning from an
@AvantiWestCoast
train where disabled passengers are being removed from their pre-existing seat reservations so that the cast of a TV show can sit together in one carriage. Makes you wonder if Avanti prioritise corporate bookings over disabled customers.

Once the journey was underway, an Avanti staff member stiff guard at the door to the coach, prohibiting anyone else from entering. At the same time, some of the cast from the TV show were keen to bring their friends through from the adjacent coach to join them...

.in drinking prosecco. So, disabled people are removed from their seat reservations whilst Avanti staff guard the doors so that the actors from a TV show (why do they *have* to sit together?) can drink Prosecco and bring their mates in.

https://x.com/matthew_drama/status/1928754692869197860

How does this comply with the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) and the rights of passengers, exactly?

Avanti need to be hauled over the coals for this.

 

[AlterEgo]

Were the passengers accommodated elsewhere? If so I can’t see a problem. The tweet doesn’t mention what, if any, difficulties the passengers had. Were they just asked to sit elsewhere, is that it?

 

[styles]

Were the passengers accommodated elsewhere? If so I can’t see a problem. The tweet doesn’t mention what, if any, difficulties the passengers had. Were they just asked to sit elsewhere, is that it?

The person who posted the original Tweet seems to not be responding to such questions (though they are responding to questions asking if it was Hollyoaks etc).

Not justifying what's happened, but we really are missing a fair bit of context.

 

[GusB]

Avanti has replied with this:

https://x.com/AvantiWestCoast/status/1928755175495229446

Hi Matthew. We're extremely sorry to hear this. Are you able to please provide me with further information about your experience, and let me know which service you're travelling on via DM? Many thanks! - Sam

The next few posts seem to be concerned about naming the TV show concerned. We're missing a lot of information here.

 

[JamieL]

I suspect what may have happened here is that the passenger was booked First Class on one of the Avanti Pendolinos and would have been allocated to Coach J. Avanti offer a coach hire service which, when activated, blocks out Coach J to that group. Standard Premium is suspended for that journey and all existing First Class passengers are moved into Coach G. I have seen this a few times - the staff stand at the doors of Coach J and direct all the other First Class passengers to take the equivalent seat in Coach G. The issue here of course is there are no wheelchair facilities in Coach G and so, if the individual raising the concern was in a wheelchair, then they would have had to use Standard Class facilities in Coaches B or D. I can understand why that might be annoying but not sure on the legality?

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[The exile]

I suspect what may have happened here is that the passenger was booked First Class on one of the Avanti Pendolinos and would have been allocated to Coach J. Avanti offer a coach hire service which, when activated, blocks out Coach J to that group. Standard Premium is suspended for that journey and all existing First Class passengers are moved into Coach G. I have seen this a few times - the staff stand at the doors of Coach J and direct all the other First Class passengers to take the equivalent seat in Coach G. The issue here of course is there are no wheelchair facilities in Coach G and so, if the individual raising the concern was in a wheelchair, then they would have had to use Standard Class facilities in Coaches B or D. I can understand why that might be annoying but not sure on the legality?

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Unless the party itself requires accessible seating, how can it be right that that is the coach that gets blocked. If there is some reason that it can only be that coach, then sorry- pre-existing booking of the accessible seats has to mean “sorry, coach cannot be booked”.

 

[JamieL]

Unless the party itself requires accessible seating, how can it be right that that is the coach that gets blocked. If there is some reason that it can only be that coach, then sorry- pre-existing booking of the accessible seats has to mean “sorry, coach cannot be booked”.

Coach J is the only full capacity First Class coach (Coach K is only half capacity due to the kirchen and Coach G has been downgraded to Standard Premium these days). The "hire coach" offer includes catering etc hence it has to be First Class coaches.

IMHO the railway treats First Class passengers quite badly. I suspect the answer here will be to refund the difference between First and Standard. I don't think that one passenger can necessary block a whole coach of customers. But in all honesty I was only explaining what I think may have happened, not justifying it.

 

[43066]

Coach J is the only full capacity First Class coach (Coach K is only half capacity due to the kirchen and Coach G has been downgraded to Standard Premium these days). The "hire coach" offer includes catering etc hence it has to be First Class coaches.

IMHO the railway treats First Class passengers quite badly. I suspect the answer here will be to refund the difference between First and Standard. I don't think that one passenger can necessary block a whole coach of customers. But in all honesty I was only explaining what I think may have happened, not justifying it.

In which case it makes sense. As you say the disabled passenger has suffered a downgrade and should therefore be entitled to a refund of the first class portion of the ticket price paid.

It might be more difficult/awkward if the standard class disabled area was already occupied by another wheelchair user…

 

[norbitonflyer]

The issue here of course is there are no wheelchair facilities in Coach G and so, if the individual raising the concern was in a wheelchair, then they would have had to use Standard Class facilities in Coaches B or D.

Having travelled with someone in a wheelchair on Avanti, and had an upgrade to First (because both standard wheelchair spaces were already taken) we did note that, for a wheelchair passenger, there is little difference as the seat is the same (the one you brought with you). There is, of course, a difference for the companion.

 

[VItraveller]

the tweet seems to suggest that more than one disable passenger was removed from the coach.
The other problem with disabled people being made to move seats is what if they’ve booked assistance on the other end, is that communicated to the assistance staff at all the different destination stationsbecause I know that when I’ve travelled and I’ve had to move for whatever reason, usually it isn’t

 

[talldave]

Coach J is the only full capacity First Class coach (Coach K is only half capacity due to the kirchen and Coach G has been downgraded to Standard Premium these days). The "hire coach" offer includes catering etc hence it has to be First Class coaches.

IMHO the railway treats First Class passengers quite badly. I suspect the answer here will be to refund the difference between First and Standard. I don't think that one passenger can necessary block a whole coach of customers. But in all honesty I was only explaining what I think may have happened, not justifying it.

Thanks for your detailed explanation.

The frustration for the disabled passenger may be that if no first class option was available they might not have travelled at all. A few quid refunded can't resolve that conflict.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It does always amaze me how bad 1st class passengers are treated on the railway compared with airlines etc. you'd think that premium seat price would be valued but this is yet another case of paid for service but then being told it's not available, it should really be refunded with compensation on top.

 

[Snow1964]

Unless the party itself requires accessible seating, how can it be right that that is the coach that gets blocked. If there is some reason that it can only be that coach, then sorry- pre-existing booking of the accessible seats has to mean “sorry, coach cannot be booked”.

Yes, I don't really get it either, if the only first class wheelchair spaces are already booked (and there are no others on the train) , how does a hire booking still be open to book, thus creating a double booking and inability to still accommodate the already booked first class wheelchair user. Surely it should realise only about 90% of coach is still available to hire, because part is already booked.

In principle if already reserved, it would be like taking a second hire booking, then moving the first hire booking. I cannot see how these can be seen as acceptable if already taken money for first customer to book (and nothing suggesting wheelchair customer hadn't paid and booked)

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Coach G has been downgraded to Standard Premium these days).

G has been converted to Standard, H, J and K are the only ones with the First Class / Standard Premium setas

 

[Doctor Pepper]

I suspect what may have happened here is that the passenger was booked First Class on one of the Avanti Pendolinos and would have been allocated to Coach J. Avanti offer a coach hire service which, when activated, blocks out Coach J to that group. Standard Premium is suspended for that journey and all existing First Class passengers are moved into Coach G. I have seen this a few times - the staff stand at the doors of Coach J and direct all the other First Class passengers to take the equivalent seat in Coach G. The issue here of course is there are no wheelchair facilities in Coach G and so, if the individual raising the concern was in a wheelchair, then they would have had to use Standard Class facilities in Coaches B or D. I can understand why that might be annoying but not sure on the legality?

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And that's acceptable is it? Er no it's not. I would have just them them no, I'm not moving.

 

[Alex_L33]

Tangentially related: I have seen the pavement on Eversholt Road fenced off with security guards to allow "celebrity" groups to transfer from the train to a waiting road coach. I thought this was pretty unacceptable too, as it forced me to cross the road far from a pedestrian crossing with view obscured by said coach, whilst following the sign-posted "Wellbeing Walk" transfer route from Kings Cross to Euston.

 

[Gloster]

Would you want to be surrounded by a group of Z-list celebrities and their hangers-on swilling Prosecco? Block booking a whole coach is probably a reasonable thing for Avanti to do, but this does sound as though it has been badly handled. And what happens if another disabled user appears, possibly off a delayed train, and is told that they can’t travel as there isn’t a spare disabled place, even though one isn’t being used?

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

I suspect what may have happened here is that the passenger was booked First Class on one of the Avanti Pendolinos and would have been allocated to Coach J. Avanti offer a coach hire service which, when activated, blocks out Coach J to that group. Standard Premium is suspended for that journey and all existing First Class passengers are moved into Coach G. I have seen this a few times - the staff stand at the doors of Coach J and direct all the other First Class passengers to take the equivalent seat in Coach G. The issue here of course is there are no wheelchair facilities in Coach G and so, if the individual raising the concern was in a wheelchair, then they would have had to use Standard Class facilities in Coaches B or D. I can understand why that might be annoying but not sure on the legality?

Party Train Carriage Hire | Avanti VIP Travel | Avanti West Coast

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www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

I didn't know this was a thing! But looking at the prices, it's not much more expensive than last time I booked to go to London with the family - might just do this next time!

 

[mrcheek]

Lets wait and see if the disabled passengers complain.
I suspect they will not, since they likely had no issue

Twitter user "Matthew Drama" should probably change his handle to "Matthew Drama Queen"

a storm in a teacup.
while were at it, the tea on Avanti services is revolting....

 

[Howardh]

I was unaware that you could book a whole coach, and if this is the case, the other passengers should have been made fully aware (were they?) and transferred to the exact same facility. Is it possible for those with specific seat bookings to be contacted by the TOC in advance (e-mail) and offered either another similar seat or, if possible, the option to choose one yourself?

Secondly, for those with advance tickets, would it be acceptable for them to travel in a later train in similar cases?

 

[styles]

I was unaware that you could book a whole coach, and if this is the case, the other passengers should have been made fully aware (were they?) and transferred to the exact same facility. Is it possible for those with specific seat bookings to be contacted by the TOC in advance (e-mail) and offered either another similar seat or, if possible, the option to choose one yourself?

Secondly, for those with advance tickets, would it be acceptable for them to travel in a later train in similar cases?

Yep: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/tickets-and-savings/group-travel/avanti-vip

Was the same under Virgin also.

LNER also offer it: https://www.lner.co.uk/tickets/private-hire/

Celebrities sometimes do it, e.g. the Beckhams: https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/...-selfridges-before-wowing-in-maxi-skirt-38107

It's quite a nice way to travel really as you can travel as a group, keep privacy, and have a dedicated host. The closest you'll get to that elsewhere is hiring a private plane (expensive), or a bus (nowhere near as comfy).

If I took a large group of scouts down south by train again, I'd consider doing it.

 

[Andyh82]

The fact that we’re celebs “or people who think they were celebs” is irrelevant if there is advertised group booking service. They could have been a group of business people, members of the public or anyone

I suppose when the tabloids pick up on it, it adds extra juicy gossip to the story, as people will think celebs were themselves kicking wheelchair users off the train, they probably had no idea of the booking arrangements.

 

[800001]

Yep: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/tickets-and-savings/group-travel/avanti-vip

Was the same under Virgin also.

LNER also offer it: https://www.lner.co.uk/tickets/private-hire/

Celebrities sometimes do it, e.g. the Beckhams: https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/news/...-selfridges-before-wowing-in-maxi-skirt-38107

It's quite a nice way to travel really as you can travel as a group, keep privacy, and have a dedicated host. The closest you'll get to that elsewhere is hiring a private plane (expensive), or a bus (nowhere near as comfy).

If I took a large group of scouts down south by train again, I'd consider doing it.

When LNER get a ‘Platinum’ booking as it is called with them, any people booked with in that coach get seats re-reserved in another coach and are either emailed or given a phone call if those details are known. If not a member of the Platinum team has the reservation details and advises customers as they board.

On LNER coach L is used which is the full length first class carriage, and at least on LNER accessible seating is in coach M.

 

[Dr Hoo]

This is not a new issue. I remember a column in Modern Railways, probably 50 years ago, where the writer complained that a football team had block-booked an InterCity restaurant car. And that was in the day when there were no spaces for wheelchair users (other than the brake van) and it was theoretically possible to add additional carriages to a service train.

 

[OscarH]

I suspect what may have happened here is that the passenger was booked First Class on one of the Avanti Pendolinos and would have been allocated to Coach J. Avanti offer a coach hire service which, when activated, blocks out Coach J to that group. Standard Premium is suspended for that journey and all existing First Class passengers are moved into Coach G. I have seen this a few times - the staff stand at the doors of Coach J and direct all the other First Class passengers to take the equivalent seat in Coach G. The issue here of course is there are no wheelchair facilities in Coach G and so, if the individual raising the concern was in a wheelchair, then they would have had to use Standard Class facilities in Coaches B or D. I can understand why that might be annoying but not sure on the legality?

Party Train Carriage Hire | Avanti VIP Travel | Avanti West Coast

Celebrate in style with a party on board your own private train carriage with Avanti West Coast VIP experience. See our private carriage hire options here.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

The only thing I don't understand here is why they don't use H instead of J, if they're going to suspend std prem anyway, the seats are the same, and you'd have to guard both ends of the coach in either case wouldn't you?

 

[JamieL]

The only thing I don't understand here is why they don't use H instead of J, if they're going to suspend std prem anyway, the seats are the same, and you'd have to guard both ends of the coach in either case wouldn't you?

I suspect because the toilet is in J. If H was used for the "VIPs" then they would need to walk the length of J to access the toilets. Presumably if they are famous people that might leave them open to be stopped/harassed for signatures etc. The handful of times I have seen this the train manager has largely stayed in the front portion of H, presumably to throttle access (and interestingly on each occasion wore a very visible and large body cam!).

 

[Gloster]

It is not just a coach that it happens on. After playing the Isle of Wight Festival in 2007 the Rolling Stones block booked the 00.35 ferry from Yarmouth. Passengers who had already booked the ferry weren’t allowed on (and some apparently didn’t even know in advance that they were booted off).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does always amaze me how bad 1st class passengers are treated on the railway compared with airlines etc. you'd think that premium seat price would be valued but this is yet another case of paid for service but then being told it's not available, it should really be refunded with compensation on top.

The price differential with air travel is much greater. As much as ten times sometimes.

It is not just a coach that it happens on. After playing the Isle of Wight Festival in 2007 the Rolling Stones block booked the 00.35 ferry from Yarmouth. Passengers who had already booked the ferry weren’t allowed on (and some apparently didn’t even know in advance that they were booted off).

That is disgraceful; WightLink should have arranged a duplicate instead.

 

[AlterEgo]

It does always amaze me how bad 1st class passengers are treated on the railway compared with airlines etc.

First class on the railway is nothing like first class with an airline.

 

[PTR 444]

That is disgraceful; WightLink should have arranged a duplicate instead.

How big was their block booking? Was it just them or did it also include production crew, managers, supporting acts etc?