Avanti platform staff bawling at passengers

[RailWonderer]

Manchester Piccadilly has some famously difficult and desperate gateline staff.

Piccadilly is more of a mixed bag due to different toc staff there, ranging from friendly to very curt.

I've never had any problem with the staff at Euston, when I've used P1/2/3 the gates have been open and I've just walked onto the platform unquestioned.
And that's half an hour (if not more) before the train leaves.

Totally not my experience. A while back, I was about to miss the 10:16 LNR first stop MK (it was 10:15) so I dashed for the 10:20 Avanti to Man Picc on platform 1 (I had a route any permitted ticket) and the woman asked me why I did not take the LNR service (I told her this one overtakes it and I can use any service and I wanted a better chance of having a seat) she told me I should have taken it anyway and grunted then opened the gateline as my ticket didn't want to go in. And not before wanting to see my railcard. Her tone of voice was accusing not even advisory.

Same at most London stations, default assumption is anyone is a potential scumbag or criminal.

 

[richfoz84]

Disagree on this. Shouting has no place in a professional environment except to warn of a serious and imminent hazard. All it really serves to do is make staff look silly, and quite probably means people will be less inclined to take notice when that serious and imminent hazard does arise and requires immediate action.

I agree it’s not very professional but it certainly gets a lot of peoples attention and makes them think about where they’re standing. The staff can’t walk to that person and say please stand back, as that could be too late! I’ve seen a lady get trapped in the doors on an Avanti train @ Stockport. She ignored the whistle and the yelling, and she was very lucky not to get hurt!

Bet hey, everyone will have different opinions on this.

✌

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Typical Avanti behaviour. Carried over from the Virgin days. (I wasn’t around before that, so could have even been before Virgin).

 

[rg177]

Piccadilly is more of a mixed bag due to different toc staff there, ranging from friendly to very curt.

Totally not my experience. A while back, I was about to miss the 10:16 LNR first stop MK (it was 10:15) so I dashed for the 10:20 Avanti to Man Picc on platform 1 (I had a route any permitted ticket) and the woman asked me why I did not take the LNR service (I told her this one overtakes it and I can use any service and I wanted a better chance of having a seat) she told me I should have taken it anyway and grunted then opened the gateline as my ticket didn't want to go in. And not before wanting to see my railcard. Her tone of voice was accusing not even advisory.

Same at most London stations, default assumption is anyone is a potential scumbag or criminal.

When I used to work for First, I'd get the reduced-price day rovers that all staff were entitled to.

Euston is the only station where the staff would sarcastically ask for my work ID (which was already in my hand) as if I'd somehow illicitly obtained the ticket before begrudgingly letting me through. It's not like we all worked for First...

More recently, I witnessed a man make it to the barrier seemingly just after the T-2 minutes where they like to block access to the platform. He wasn't pleased, as the train was still there with doors open, but thankfully the very friendly staff member decided to remedy the situation by shouting at him some more.

 

[Skiddaw]

Have to say I agree about some of the Euston staff (though I've met some really friendly ones too) though my worst experience of a really obnoxious person was at Paddington once, when my (perfecly valid) ticket wouldn't open the gate. On the whole though I can count the bad experiences on one hand.

 

[LowLevel]

I regularly shout because you often can't hear me asking someone to stand back from the train, or that they're going the wrong way with their bike over the roar of a 170s radiator fans....

However I've always found it is best followed up with a smile, a wave or a thumbs up and a thank you once it's achieved.

 

[james_the_xv]

Firstly, it's a health and safety issue, so that takes any precedence over being 'nice'.

Secondly, have any of you seen platform staff try and do it nicely and the reaction to that? When they do, they get ignored. Shouting at people to assert authority is the only way to do to do it IMO. It isn't ideal but the average commuter doesn't care as they do it every day, and the growing population who have a flagrant disregard for rules in general won't listen anyway. At least shouting gets people to turn their heads and take notice.

Disagree on this. Shouting has no place in a professional environment except to warn of a serious and imminent hazard. All it really serves to do is make staff look silly, and quite probably means people will be less inclined to take notice when that serious and imminent hazard does arise and requires immediate action.

So you do that job and be the one pulled into a meeting with your line manger or even worse be involved in a RAIB investigation when someone gets sucked under while you weren't shouting because "it isn't professional". Sorry but this is the take of someone who's taken offence to the fact they've been shouted at a few times on platforms and can't see the bigger picture.

 

[Undiscovered]

I would imagine, at some point, that somebody somewhere has either observerd directly, or used station CCTV, to watch a train dispatch.
That dispatch may have had a tiny oversight, like a foot half way over the yellow line, or a lack of communication of keeping clear of the train, which has delayed the train , whatever, which has lead to a disciplinary for staff involved..
Given the current climate on the railways in general, then if the above, or variations of, is the case, then you really can't fault staff for being safety conscious.

 

[Rover77]

I was until very recently Avanti dispatch staff. Believe me when I say shouting in this manner is the only effective way of moving people out of the dispatch corridor. I would politely ask people when appropriate but when you have a rammed platform and a train arriving it is impossible to talk to people I individually and be in the correct position to dispatch the train.
It is primarily about saftey, then about time. Every minute a train dewlls on a platform costs between £150 and £250. That delay has to be accounted for and station staff take the hit. If we try and dispatch the train with people over the yellow line inside the dispatch corridor then the train manager should not accept the first tip and the dispatcher would have his/her competency questioned.
I have tried to make announcements using the teleqe but again people don't listen, ignore or have headphones in.
There is also management to consider. If staff are not effectively managing the platform the management will be on them for a please explain.
The problem is a lack communication and understanding between staff and the public. I feel until the public understands what the real role of dispatch staff are then unfortunately raising your voice is the only option. Sometimes the dispatcher only has one chance to grab someone's attention and alert them to the danger. Would they rather feel offended or be dead?

 

[james_the_xv]

The problem is a lack communication and understanding between staff and the public. I feel until the public understands what the real role of dispatch staff are then unfortunately raising your voice is the only option. Sometimes the dispatcher only has one chance to grab someone's attention and alert them to the danger. Would they rather feel offended or be dead?

For the public, the yellow line is another arbitrary rule. I recall an RSSB note on this a good 5 or so few years back about yellow hatched areas being better at discouraging the public from standing/walking at the edge of a platform? Maybe a proper campaign is needed in the form of posters, on train announcements etc to try and educate but I doubt too much will be taken onboard.

 

[D Williams]

Piccadilly is more of a mixed bag due to different toc staff there, ranging from friendly to very curt.

Totally not my experience. A while back, I was about to miss the 10:16 LNR first stop MK (it was 10:15) so I dashed for the 10:20 Avanti to Man Picc on platform 1 (I had a route any permitted ticket) and the woman asked me why I did not take the LNR service (I told her this one overtakes it and I can use any service and I wanted a better chance of having a seat) she told me I should have taken it anyway and grunted then opened the gateline as my ticket didn't want to go in. And not before wanting to see my railcard. Her tone of voice was accusing not even advisory.

Same at most London stations, default assumption is anyone is a potential scumbag or criminal.

Unfortunately the evidence indicates that many are indeed scumbags and criminals ( fare evaders) . A reflection of British society. Being treated in this manner and transported in overpriced, overcrowded, uncomfortable trains is the main reason I very rarely use a rail service and then, if there is no alternative, only for very short trips. I fully sympathise with platform staff who are placed in this position by bullying management and with the threat of prosecution by the safety gestapo hanging over them.

 

[185]

Regardless of whether people like it or not, it'll be here to stay - the days of people being expected to be responsible for their own safety have gone, and the ORR / RSSB now mandate this to be the procedure.

In a similar way to America's future being predicted in the movie Idiocracy, I can see (similarly doomed) British stations in years ahead playing the Phoenix Nights car alarm at 300+ decibels...
"get back yer[railforums uk]I'll break yer legs"

 

[Iskra]

To be fair, communicating effectively in a station environment above the sounds of engines, announcements, beeping sounds, platform chatter, other trains does require the voice to be raised. If someone is endangering themselves this is reasonable, but I think it just needs to be done as politely and clearly as possible rather sounding angry as it sometimes can, but getting the tone right every time in this sort of scenario is not easy.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I was until very recently Avanti dispatch staff. Believe me when I say shouting in this manner is the only effective way of moving people out of the dispatch corridor. I would politely ask people when appropriate but when you have a rammed platform and a train arriving it is impossible to talk to people I individually and be in the correct position to dispatch the train.
It is primarily about saftey, then about time. Every minute a train dewlls on a platform costs between £150 and £250. That delay has to be accounted for and station staff take the hit. If we try and dispatch the train with people over the yellow line inside the dispatch corridor then the train manager should not accept the first tip and the dispatcher would have his/her competency questioned.
I have tried to make announcements using the teleqe but again people don't listen, ignore or have headphones in.
There is also management to consider. If staff are not effectively managing the platform the management will be on them for a please explain.
The problem is a lack communication and understanding between staff and the public. I feel until the public understands what the real role of dispatch staff are then unfortunately raising your voice is the only option. Sometimes the dispatcher only has one chance to grab someone's attention and alert them to the danger. Would they rather feel offended or be dead?

Completely agree with this.

 

[duffield]

I'm very familiar with the yellow lines of course, but I've only seen other coloured lines briefly in passing and not had time to read any related signage; they're not used on the stations I visit most.

So, what other colours are in use (I've seen blue and red mentioned, any others?) and what exactly is the difference between them and the normal yellow lines?

 

[Tractor2018]

Why have Avanti platform staff at Crewe station taken to yelling at passengers to "stand behind the yellow line"? I use many, much busier, stations in south London where trains pass through more frequently and at higher speed than the platform lines at Crewe, and none of our train or station operators feel the need to do this.

What exactly is the perceived danger at Crewe? Pretty much all the trains passing the platforms are coming to a stop or pulling away again, moving at a max 25mph or so; anything that is going through fast will be on the non-platform through roads, apart from perhaps the odd freight but they are going through at a crawl too.
Surely, if anyone is straying too close to the platform edge a blast on the horn by the driver should persuade them to move back? Also, Avanti's yellow lines at Crewe seem to have been painted much further back from the platform edge than at most other stations.

The constant bawling and shouting at customers (ha!) hardly makes for a great ambience at a station that is already enough of a miserable hole in which to wait for a train.

They shout because sometimes it's the only way to be heard in a station, or the only way to shake people from their daydream, or the only way to distract their attention from their phone.

What is the perceived danger? Oh, I don't know......standing too close to the edge maybe. Why on earth should it be up to the driver, in the first instance, to blow the horn? Why not have a layered process. Maybe one where people take responsibility for themselves (some chance these days), next there's announcements, then staff shout or intervene, and if that fails then drivers sound their horns and ultimately dump the brake? That sounds quite reasonable, I think.

But it won't to some.

It's a place of work for many. And potentially a place of danger for all. If you want "ambience" I don't know why you wouldn't make different choices like everyone else sat in bars, coffee shops, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Same thing at Rugby and Warrington I can confirm. It seems to ba a cultural (*ahem staff training) thing on Avanti to yell or at least gesture grandly to passengers to get back.

It pre-dates Avanti back to the Virgin days. There was a bloke at Rugby about 20 years ago, who yelled at myself and several others for getting too close to the yellow line (i.e about 2-3 foot behind it) and threatened to have us removed from the station.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

They shout because sometimes it's the only way to be heard in a station, or the only way to shake people from their daydream, or the only way to distract their attention from their phone.

What is the perceived danger? Oh, I don't know......standing too close to the edge maybe. Why on earth should it be up to the driver, in the first instance, to blow the horn? Why not have a layered process. Maybe one where people take responsibility for themselves (some chance these days), next there's announcements, then staff shout or intervene, and if that fails then drivers sound their horns and ultimately dump the brake? That sounds quite reasonable, I think.

But it won't to some.

It's a place of work for many. And potentially a place of danger for all. If you want "ambience" I don't know why you wouldn't make different choices like everyone else sat in bars, coffee shops, whatever floats your boat.

But why Crewe of all places, where the actual danger is, as I said, pretty low? As I said, there are plenty of potentially far more dangerous stations in London (to say nothing of the Underground) where the railway doesn't take it upon itself to behave in this way.

 

[island]

I'm very familiar with the yellow lines of course, but I've only seen other coloured lines briefly in passing and not had time to read any related signage; they're not used on the stations I visit most.

So, what other colours are in use (I've seen blue and red mentioned, any others?) and what exactly is the difference between them and the normal yellow lines?

Heathrow T2&3 NR has blue lines which are around halfway between the normal yellow lines and the wall. Apparently behind the blue line is where you’re meant to wait if you’re not getting the “next” train (waiting for EL vs HEX) though I can’t say I see many people observing that.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

I was until very recently Avanti dispatch staff. Believe me when I say shouting in this manner is the only effective way of moving people out of the dispatch corridor. I would politely ask people when appropriate but when you have a rammed platform and a train arriving it is impossible to talk to people I individually and be in the correct position to dispatch the train.
It is primarily about saftey, then about time. Every minute a train dewlls on a platform costs between £150 and £250. That delay has to be accounted for and station staff take the hit. If we try and dispatch the train with people over the yellow line inside the dispatch corridor then the train manager should not accept the first tip and the dispatcher would have his/her competency questioned.
I have tried to make announcements using the teleqe but again people don't listen, ignore or have headphones in.
There is also management to consider. If staff are not effectively managing the platform the management will be on them for a please explain.
The problem is a lack communication and understanding between staff and the public. I feel until the public understands what the real role of dispatch staff are then unfortunately raising your voice is the only option. Sometimes the dispatcher only has one chance to grab someone's attention and alert them to the danger. Would they rather feel offended or be dead?

But most of the shouting I witnessed last night wasn't when a train was being despatched; it was at times when there were no trains anywhere in sight and none were scheduled for a considerable time.

 

[LowLevel]

But why Crewe of all places, where the actual danger is, as I said, pretty low? As I said, there are plenty of potentially far more dangerous stations in London (to say nothing of the Underground) where the railway doesn't take it upon itself to behave in this way.

Because Crewe has recently had issues with unawares people on the platform edge, often with things like rucksacks, attempting to delete themselves on the front of trains, often after alighting from other services.

 

[AverageJoe]

Manchester picc plat 13/14 is a terrible design especially as it narrows down to the west end of the platform. The platform can be completely full and train passing from both sides so it can be a danger for accidental shoving therefore being behind the yellow lines is a genuine concern for platform staff and drivers approaching.

Obviously shouting and being aggressive isn’t necessarily the best answer but I can understand their frustration if they have the same issue daily of packed platforms and passengers continually standing close the to platform edge.

It’s not a job I would want and I’m sure they are doing it out of concern for the safety of those they are shouting at.

Also it creates further issues with those trying to get off the train if the ones on the platform are too close. This could lead to a crowd crush and people stumbling on to plat 13 with a train approaching. Far fetched I know but it’s a concern.

 

[LowLevel]

Manchester picc plat 13/14 is a terrible design especially as it narrows down to the west end of the platform. The platform can be completely full and train passing from both sides so it can be a danger for accidental shoving therefore being behind the yellow lines is a genuine concern for platform staff and drivers approaching.

Obviously shouting and being aggressive isn’t necessarily the best answer but I can understand their frustration if they have the same issue daily of packed platforms and passengers continually standing close the to platform edge.

It’s not a job I would want and I’m sure they are doing it out of concern for the safety of those they are shouting at.

Also it creates further issues with those trying to get off the train if the ones on the platform are too close. This could lead to a crowd crush and people stumbling on to plat 13 with a train approaching. Far fetched I know but it’s a concern.

Those platforms were never designed for the heavy passenger flow that they currently see. They were built for a single service group that would have seen a not particularly intense service level with everyone boarding or leaving the same train, with some through freight.

The Windsor Link in the 80s of course then started the process of them becoming what they are today - effectively a very busy pair of S-Bahn platforms that also serve Intercity services.

 

[jon0844]

But most of the shouting I witnessed last night wasn't when a train was being despatched; it was at times when there were no trains anywhere in sight and none were scheduled for a considerable time.

As has been said before, you don't know there isn't another train that's going to appear without being 'scheduled'.

 

[riceuten]

I had this in Stevenage with....a broken down train in the platform (1) - I assume the shoutee didn't know.

But they will often do this with people when there's no train due - calling or otherwise - for the next 10 minutes

 

[Krokodil]

Pretty much all the trains passing the platforms are coming to a stop or pulling away again, moving at a max 25mph or so

Do you think that a train doing less than 25mph isn't going to kill you if you go down the gap?

It is about more time. On these small platforms, if this is being done strictly you need a much longer dwell to allow the alighting passengers to clear the platform fully, rather than just get off, to ensure that the yellow line area is clear. You can huff and puff and bawl all you like, but if people are filtering up the stairs this takes time.

Birmingham New St is one example of a station where you'll not be able to dispatch until the crowd has dispersed, and so the timetable needs to consider that. Liverpool Central is another.

The crowds aren't necessarily from the same train as the one being dispatched. Have a look at this link and see how many TfW Crewe-Chester shuttles now get replatformed from 9 to 12. This is because the crowds from the shuttle were walking down the edge of the adjacent platform 6 en masse, incredibly close to departing trains. It was an accident waiting to happen.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Crewe between 0600 and 2000 on 22/08/2023

Train information at Crewe between 0600 and 2000 on 22/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

But why Crewe of all places, where the actual danger is, as I said, pretty low?

Have you done the risk assessment for Crewe? I think that we'll let the people who have decide how big the risk is, thank you.

I suggest that posters have a go at their best impression of Sergeant Wilson "would you mind awfully stepping back behind the yellow line, there's a good chap?" and see how a crowd responds. When I'm dispatching a train (I'm not Avanti staff BTW) and I deem someone to pose a risk; I'll stick with a loud, clear "STAND BACK". The odd persistent drunk may even find security guards forcibly pulling them away, it's for their own good.

 

[DustyBin]

We witnessed some frankly embarrassing screaming by a member of GC staff at Sunderland recently. She was literally screaming “get back!” like her life depended on it; at first we couldn’t make out who or what the screaming was, and thought some kind of incident was occurring. It turned out that there was an enthusiast with a camera by the front of the train kneeling on the yellow line, so fully aware of their surroundings. Other passengers were as amused as we were (once we realised what was happening!).

 

[Dave91131]

Do you think that a train doing less than 25mph isn't going to kill you if you go down the gap?


The crowds aren't necessarily from the same train as the one being dispatched. Have a look at this link and see how many TfW Crewe-Chester shuttles now get replatformed from 9 to 12. This is because the crowds from the shuttle were walking down the edge of the adjacent platform 6 en masse, incredibly close to departing trains. It was an accident waiting to happen.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Crewe between 0600 and 2000 on 22/08/2023

Train information at Crewe between 0600 and 2000 on 22/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Have you done the risk assessment for Crewe? I think that we'll let the people who have decide how big the risk is, thank you.

I suggest that posters have a go at their best impression of Sergeant Wilson "would you mind awfully stepping back behind the yellow line, there's a good chap?" and see how a crowd responds. When I'm dispatching a train (I'm not Avanti staff BTW) and I deem someone to pose a risk; I'll stick with a loud, clear "STAND BACK". The odd persistent drunk may even find security guards forcibly pulling them away, it's for their own good.

Heaven forbid - London Bridge, Clapham Junction, East Croydon to name a few, close the stations immediately! We can't have people walking down a platform whilst a train arrives or departs, clearly.

What a load of utter tripe some of the comments in this thread are.

Total crap.

 

[Krokodil]

Heaven forbid - London Bridge, Clapham Junction, East Croydon to name a few, close the stations immediately! We can't have people walking down a platform whilst a train arrives or departs, clearly.

What a load of utter tripe some of the comments in this thread are.

Total crap.

How many of those stations have narrow bay platforms right next to a through line?

I saw the way the crowds were leaving Crewe P9, with trains departing from adjacent P6. I repeat, it was an accident waiting to happen.

 

[MP393]

How many of those stations have narrow bay platforms right next to a through line?

I saw the way the crowds were leaving Crewe P9, with trains departing from adjacent P6. I repeat, it was an accident waiting to happen.

Agreed. Not just departing P6, arriving too. The problem being the Chester’s arriving into P9 just as the LNWR Liverpool-Birmingham service arrived into P6, so not only were they walking dangerously close to edge in hoards and crowds, but with their backs to the train approaching them too. Lots of which had luggage, spreading well over the width of the platform.