Avanti Standard Premium vs First

[Yankee01]

I will be traveling between Euston and Liverpool on a Saturday in July leaving on one of the morning services between 8:30 - 11:00. I'll have a bit of luggage, a suitcase that would need to be stored on the luggage racks, something about average size that normally would be checked baggage on plane.

I see that Avanti's standard premium appears to have the same seating as first, just without the meal service and lounge access. I am just wondering if there is anything else to justify the difference in fare between standard premium and first.

As I mentioned, I'd have some luggage, so crowding could be a concern if I can't find a place to store the bag. Would either carriage be more crowded than the other on a Saturday morning?

 

[jfollows]

No.
I don’t care hugely for the food service, it was always inconsistent, and I never use the lounge, so Standard Premium is the way for me. Plenty of places to buy food and drink to take with you at Euston. First is overpriced and no longer worth it, in my opinion.

Sometimes First can be more crowded, but at other times it isn’t, on a Saturday morning I’d not think there was much difference.

I was in Standard Premium yesterday and there’s plenty of luggage space for sure.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is the difference in fare for the train you’re looking at?

 

[yorkie]

I only ever use 1st on Avanti when on InterRail, and I only use Standard Premium on journeys where the upgrade seems to be worth it.

Without knowing the difference in fares, time of day, origin/destination, it is difficult to judge it.

On average, 1st seems to have higher loadings than Standard Premium, but it depends on demand and what the formation of the train is (9 vs 11 car) and also whether it's a weekday or weekend!

 

[Watershed]

The only benefits of First over SP are the food/drink and lounge access. Given that the weekend menu is limited, stingy in terms of portion size and often not provided due to staff shortages, the food is nothing to write home about. The same goes for the lounge, which is admittedly nicer than the public concourse in Euston but that's about it - there's rather a limited food and drink selection.

IMHO Avanti's huge premiums for First really aren't warranted given the limited benefit over SP. I only travel first class with Avanti if I'm on a ranger/rover/pass of some sort (e.g. Interrail) or someone else is paying...

In terms of luggage, there is usually only one coach of first class on weekends so you may in fact have an easier time finding space in SP than first class. Either way I wouldn't expect any difficulties.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Like Watershed has said, I strongly suspect there will be much more space for luggage in Standard Premium, because First Class is only available in coach K on Pendolinos on Weekends. Coach K is very small in terms of number of seats and space available compared with coaches H and J.

 

[Yankee01]

Thanks for the replies. The price differential between 1st and standard premium is about £55 right now on the Saturday services in early July for the morning between 9am - 11am.

I'd pay for comfort in terms of the seating, and less crowded carriage, though that is quite a premium for weekend catering. That'll cover more than a few pints instead.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Apologies for going a bit off topic. I think considering the big price difference between SP and First, Avanti should at least offer the full Breakfast menu at weekends as well. (The main difference between the two menus being the lack of the Full English breakfast at weekends)

I understand there isn't a Chef working in the Kitchen at weekends and there's only one member of staff on their own providing all food and drink in First. Does that mean most weekend food is pre prepared or is anything freshly made? I'm guessing things like the toasted bagels and the egg which goes with the smoked salmon is made to order?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for the replies. The price differential between 1st and standard premium is about £55 right now on the Saturday services in early July for the morning between 9am - 11am.

I'd pay for comfort in terms of the seating, and less crowded carriage, though that is quite a premium for weekend catering. That'll cover more than a few pints instead.

I wouldn’t bother for £55; the most I’d pay is maybe £25-30 ish over the SP fare and only if I’m feeling flush!

 

[STINT47]

It's also worth considering that if there are staff shortages there cab be no catering.

You've then paid £55 for nothing as customer service will say that catering is complimentary.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

It's also worth considering that if there are staff shortages there cab be no catering.

You've then paid £55 for nothing as customer service will say that catering is complimentary.

First of all, it is incredibly rare for there to be no catering at all on Avanti.

Occasionally there is no first class host, but this is vastly improved in recent months. In these situations, you simply take your ticket to Coach C and they essentially give you whatever you want from the normal range, without charge.

As a first class passenger, you will virtually always be able to obtain free food and drink, you may just have to walk to get it.

Secondly, there is lounge access on departure and arrival, again, with food and drink available. If you book the ticket directly with Avanti, there are also some unadvertised benefits, such as pre-boarding text messages a few minutes earlier than the platform is advertised to others.

Third - for many, the point of first class isn't about the seat or the food and drink - it's about improving the chances you have of a more peaceful and enjoyable journey compared to the other classes. Whilst not guaranteed, it is vastly more likely that you will not be disturbed or interrupted by the behaviour of other passengers. The presence of the First Class host also acts as a deterrent to people not entitled to be in those coaches and generally makes sure everyone behaves themselves, no music, no screaming children etc.

£55 for all of that seems worth it's weight in gold, for me at least.

 

[All Line Rover]

Don't agree with your third point. Avanti's Seatfrog partnership tends to result, on weekends, with the tiny first class coach containing several occupants who have paid less to upgrade than those in Standard Premium, occupy the better seats and, often, are noisier.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Don't agree with your third point. Avanti's Seatfrog partnership tends to result, on weekends, with the tiny first class coach containing several occupants who have paid less to upgrade than those in Standard Premium, occupy the better seats and, often, are noisier.

I don't understand your point - the minimum pricing for first class on Seatfrog has been hiked considerably. You cannot buy/bid for a Seatfrog First Class upgrade that is cheaper than a Standard Premium upgrade, either via Seatfrog or the Train Manager.

There's also only 1 or 2 seats allocated to Seatfrog on a weekend in first class on Avanti, and only then if the revenue management algorithms determine the seats aren't required by normal fare paying passengers. As soon as advance bookings exceed a set % in first class, the Seatfrog quota is withdrawn.

 

[voyagerdude220]

First of all, it is incredibly rare for there to be no catering at all on Avanti.

Occasionally there is no first class host, but this is vastly improved in recent months. In these situations, you simply take your ticket to Coach C and they essentially give you whatever you want from the normal range, without charge.

As a first class passenger, you will virtually always be able to obtain free food and drink, you may just have to walk to get it.

Secondly, there is lounge access on departure and arrival, again, with food and drink available. If you book the ticket directly with Avanti, there are also some unadvertised benefits, such as pre-boarding text messages a few minutes earlier than the platform is advertised to others.

Third - for many, the point of first class isn't about the seat or the food and drink - it's about improving the chances you have of a more peaceful and enjoyable journey compared to the other classes. Whilst not guaranteed, it is vastly more likely that you will not be disturbed or interrupted by the behaviour of other passengers. The presence of the First Class host also acts as a deterrent to people not entitled to be in those coaches and generally makes sure everyone behaves themselves, no music, no screaming children etc.

In response to your first point- It's by no means unknown for their to be no at seat First Class service at weekends. Avanti's Journeycheck page often lists services where this is the case. Also if you've bought a First Class ticket, it's extremely poor customer service expecting you to have to walk down several carriages to the Shop. It would take several minutes to go from K to C, particularly on a 11 car and then add queuing time in the Shop if it's busy.

Second point- Not everyone wants to use a First Class lounge and many Stations don't have them.

Third point- Ironically I've always tried to avoid coach K on Pendolinos, because I find it rather cramped in there and also because of the way the tilt works, I often feel travel sick in coach K being shaken about much more than H/J.
Also I've seen many complaints online about coach K being almost full at weekends, whilst SP is deserted.

 

[John R]

Quick related question. I’m travelling from Manchester to London on the last BH Monday in May (via a bit of a detour around the West Midlands it would seem.) Is BH Monday catering on Avanti the same as the weekend (ie not really worth paying the premium for first?)

 

[voyagerdude220]

Quick related question. I’m travelling from Manchester to London on the last BH Monday in May (via a bit of a detour around the West Midlands it would seem.) Is BH Monday catering on Avanti the same as the weekend (ie not really worth paying the premium for first?)

Yes, the Avanti First Class service on bank holidays is the weekend menu.

 

[John R]

Yes, the Avanti First Class service on bank holidays is the weekend menu.

Thank you!

 

[Watershed]

First of all, it is incredibly rare for there to be no catering at all on Avanti.

Occasionally there is no first class host

It is far from occasional in my experience. I would estimate it happens at least 20-30% of the time on weekends.

but this is vastly improved in recent months

And it could just as well get worse again in the future. Catering recruitment and rest day working to plug shortages just doesn't seem to be a priority.

In these situations, you simply take your ticket to Coach C and they essentially give you whatever you want from the normal range, without charge.

As a first class passenger, you will virtually always be able to obtain free food and drink, you may just have to walk to get it.

Given that they advertise and normally provide an at-seat service, it is not at all a first class experience if you have to walk 8 coaches (each way) for catering. Even as someone perfectly capable of walking it is a hassle, not helped by people often facing into the aisle as they chat across rows, or plonking their suitcases nearly into the aisle.

Secondly, there is lounge access on departure and arrival

At some stations, and at certain times of day. There have been plenty of occasions where it's been shut when I've wanted to use it, especially later in the day. Some of the closing times are really early.

again, with food and drink available

A very limited selection, yes.

If you book the ticket directly with Avanti, there are also some unadvertised benefits, such as pre-boarding text messages a few minutes earlier than the platform is advertised to others.

You can just as well go to RTT or Open Train Times. Meanwhile by booking directly there is a good chance you are overpaying by not finding out about cheaper split ticket options.

Third - for many, the point of first class isn't about the seat or the food and drink - it's about improving the chances you have of a more peaceful and enjoyable journey compared to the other classes. Whilst not guaranteed, it is vastly more likely that you will not be disturbed or interrupted by the behaviour of other passengers.

Compared to standard class, yes absolutely. Compared to SP, there is really not much of a difference in my experience. You still get a smattering of obnoxious people in both classes.

The presence of the First Class host also acts as a deterrent to people not entitled to be in those coaches

...if there's a host, and they're not chatting with their colleagues, that is.

and generally makes sure everyone behaves themselves, no music, no screaming children etc.

I've never seen a host challenge bad behaviour before.

£55 for all of that seems worth it's weight in gold, for me at least.

You must be rather profligate then... I'd far sooner put that money towards upgrading to a business or first class product on an airline or train operator with a better and more consistent offering.

 

[rocrat]

It's also worth considering that if there are staff shortages there cab be no catering.

You've then paid £55 for nothing as customer service will say that catering is complimentary.

I've never had trouble getting something back from Avanti when they've messed up 1st class catering, even as short as Blackpool to Preston...

Whilst AWC delay repay is a nightmare, I'd go as far as to say they're one of the better TOCs to pay out when things go wrong... just need to nudge them a bit.

Their 1st class is my favourite of any TOC anyway: their menus are better than LNER, service much more consistent, and the only lounge even close to an airline...

 

[AJDesiro]

I figured I'd add my own view on this when it comes to catering... Back in August I did a return journey on an SP advance from Rugby to Glasgow for a day trip, and I have to say, I wasn't missing out on anything. The seat was comfortable, it was very quiet, and I went to the shop to get myself a bacon roll, for far less than it would have cost to upgrade to first - sure, it's a 4-7 coach walk to the shop, but that far outweighs paying a ludicrous amount for something you could get down the pub for less £10. I'd love to try the proper first class breakfast catering at some point, but I just cannot justify it...

 

[6Gman]

I only ever use 1st on Avanti when on InterRail, and I only use Standard Premium on journeys where the upgrade seems to be worth it.

Without knowing the difference in fares, time of day, origin/destination, it is difficult to judge it.

On average, 1st seems to have higher loadings than Standard Premium, but it depends on demand and what the formation of the train is (9 vs 11 car) and also whether it's a weekday or weekend!

Some Liverpool services are 807s so only 7 carriages. On the recent one I used First was busy, Standard Premium empty.

 

[Harpo]

I find Avanti’s FC service style irritating, bringing every element of the offer down the train separately, often quite while after departure, and finally getting to a single tea/coffee (the thing I’d like first) after an hour or more on board.

Take a tea/coffee and a snack to Standard premier and relax without any trolley mithering. You’ll also avoid scowls or ejection by the crew if you dare to occupy ‘their’ seats at the extreme end of FC.

 

[A S Leib]

The amount I was willing to pay for standard premium when it was introduced was around £4 per hour of the journey, but prices have substantially gone up since then, so the only times I really use standard premium or first is with Club Avanti tickets. Lounge access and being at the southern end of the train is less of a benefit when most of my Avanti journeys involve Glasgow Central (which has a lounge), Carlisle, Preston or Watford Junction (which don't).

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Some Liverpool services are 807s so only 7 carriages. On the recent one I used First was busy, Standard Premium empty.

There is a curious issue with first class and Liverpool at the moment, that the front line staff have identified, but Avanti are yet to do anything about it.

A significant number of Liverpool first class passengers are leaving the Hitachi service at Crewe, waiting 10 minutes and getting the ex-Manchester Pendolino service behind, particularly at breakfast times. Unlike Standard Class with basically the same experience, First Class has been significantly downgraded on the Hitachi services in every way.

 

[MrJeeves]

A significant number of Liverpool first class passengers are leaving the Hitachi service at Crewe, waiting 10 minutes and getting the ex-Manchester Pendolino service behind, particularly at breakfast times. Unlike Standard Class with basically the same experience, First Class has been significantly downgraded on the Hitachi services in every way.

Almost enough time to get their reheated breakfast on the Hitachi, then their cooked-to-order one on the Pendo too?

 

[AlterEgo]

A significant number of Liverpool first class passengers are leaving the Hitachi service at Crewe, waiting 10 minutes and getting the ex-Manchester Pendolino service behind, particularly at breakfast times. Unlike Standard Class with basically the same experience, First Class has been significantly downgraded on the Hitachi services in every way.

I'm glad someone else agrees the Hitachis are inferior in first class! And I know of someone who does exactly this on the Liverpools.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Almost enough time to get their reheated breakfast on the Hitachi, then their cooked-to-order one on the Pendo too?

Apologies for being a bit off topic, but has anyone sampled the cooked breakfast option on the Hitachi units? I'm guessing it'll be similar to what used to be offered on 221s?

 

[MrJeeves]

Apologies for being a bit off topic, but has anyone sampled the cooked breakfast option on the Hitachi units? I'm guessing it'll be similar to what used to be offered on 221s?

I believe the food is simply reheated on Hitachis, hence the offering only being scrambled eggs vs fried on Pendolinos. Largely the same as the Voyagers, I think?

 

[rocrat]

I'm glad someone else agrees the Hitachis are inferior in first class! And I know of someone who does exactly this on the Liverpools.

The standard class seats are more comfortable AND more ergonomic for both relaxing and working than the 1st class seats... imagine how comfy LNER and GWR sets could be in standard!

I've only had the displeasure between Blackpool and Preston on a few occasions where I too changed sets... (also acknowledging that it's often faster to change too, though I forget where!)

 

[6Gman]

I'm glad someone else agrees the Hitachis are inferior in first class! And I know of someone who does exactly this on the Liverpools.

I was walking through to find the TM and the limited First Class section was crowded and also noisy (a family with small children). I also felt the decor was a bit clumsy compared to the other offerings. Personally I head for Coach C (Standard) which I find very comfortable with plenty of tables.