Avanti stopping patterns

[BowzerEdwards]

I’m a regular commuter on the WCML and have spent many journeys battling, to no avail, with the on-board WiFi to find an answer to this question.

Given Avanti follows the high(ish) speed / intercity model – prioritising few, strategically placed stops to minimise journey time – the stop every WCML Liverpool branch train makes at Runcorn baffles me. It’s not a particularly big conurbation and Lime Street (20 mins), Crewe (27 min) and Warrington (25 mins) are all within striking distance via local rail, providing easy links to fast ‘main line’ services.

While the station seems reasonably well used, I’m sure you could make an argument that tens of other stations across the network would see similar use if Avanti stopped at it. I use these lines less frequently, but stops at Haymarket and Sandwell and Dudley could probably also go by this description as they're close to the origin / termination stations and well-served by local rail to the bigger hubs.

I’m sure there’s a reason for the stops at Runcorn, but it makes no logical sense to me. Given it's proximity to Liverpool (let alone Crewe and Warrington) it seems directly contrary to the model. Could anyone enlighten me?

 

[43055]

It seems to have always been a stop on the London - Liverpool services with some services in the 1976 timetable running non stop from Euston/Watford to Runcorn.

 

[dk1]

It seems to have always been a stop on the London - Liverpool services with some services in the 1976 timetable running non stop from Euston/Watford to Runcorn.

Until the pandemic the 07:00 ex-Liverpool & 19:07 ex-Euston (SX) did just that.

Runcorn has always been an important stop for Euston Intercity services. When the 807s start I think any extra services will stop at Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[jfollows]

Until the pandemic the 07:00 ex-Liverpool & 19:07 ex-Euston (SX) did just that.

Runcorn has always been an important stop for Euston Intercity services. When the 807s start I think any extra services will stop at Liverpool South Parkway.

1R18 06:43 Liverpool to London still runs non-stop from Runcorn (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C87925/2024-03-18/detailed#allox_id=0).

Runcorn is a reasonably accessible station from a large catchment area too - I used to work in Daresbury (south of Warrington) and most people there tended to use Runcorn station or advised visitors to come to Runcorn. It seems to have a good car park too. I'm aware that post-Covid business travel and parking are down dramatically in my own 'railhead' of Wilmslow but historically trains stop at Wilmslow and Runcorn for their hinterland as well as their localities.

 

[Efini92]

I’m a regular commuter on the WCML and have spent many journeys battling, to no avail, with the on-board WiFi to find an answer to this question.

Given Avanti follows the high(ish) speed / intercity model – prioritising few, strategically placed stops to minimise journey time – the stop every WCML Liverpool branch train makes at Runcorn baffles me. It’s not a particularly big conurbation and Lime Street (20 mins), Crewe (27 min) and Warrington (25 mins) are all within striking distance via local rail, providing easy links to fast ‘main line’ services.

While the station seems reasonably well used, I’m sure you could make an argument that tens of other stations across the network would see similar use if Avanti stopped at it. I use these lines less frequently, but stops at Haymarket and Sandwell and Dudley could probably also go by this description as they're close to the origin / termination stations and well-served by local rail to the bigger hubs.

I’m sure there’s a reason for the stops at Runcorn, but it makes no logical sense to me. Given its proximity to Liverpool (let alone Crewe and Warrington) it seems directly contrary to the model. Could anyone enlighten me?

I’m not sure of the exact answer but it’s probably funded by council.
It’s similar to the situation at Sandwell and Dudley.

 

[dk1]

1R18 06:43 Liverpool to London still runs non-stop from Runcorn (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C87925/2024-03-18/detailed#allox_id=0).

I didn’t realise that. Thank you, that’s so good to see.

 

[30907]

Runcorn has always been an important stop for Euston Intercity services. When the 807s start I think any extra services will stop at Liverpool South Parkway.

ISTR it was standardised from electrification, and at that time would offer a better service than Warrington BQ. the OP's question makes me wonder if since the 2008 timetable there has been a shift away from Runcorn to Warrington?

 

[duffield]

I have a vague memory that there might be some very large business parks of the sort that get a lot of meeting traffic from London** or similar whose nearest station is Runcorn even if they are not actually "at" Runcorn.

** Or did pre-covid.

 

[childwallblues]

Since the pandemic dar parking space at Runcorn has been reduced with only the multi story currently open. Euston services as stated above have stopped at Runcorn since 1966 and still generate good patronage. I doubt that Warrington Bank Quay has extracted passengers from Runcorn as although they do run non stop to Euston they are invariably full having started at Glasgow.
Liverpool services stop at Crewe and Milton Keynes Central and also sometimes at Nuneaton.
Runcorn has other hourly services to Birmingham New Street (half hourly in peak) and Chester. The station is very busy especially towards Liverpool which is 13 miles away at weekends.

 

[dk1]

ISTR it was standardised from electrification, and at that time would offer a better service than Warrington BQ. the OP's question makes me wonder if since the 2008 timetable there has been a shift away from Runcorn to Warrington?

Could well be but both seem to sit well in the WCML schedule & stopping pattern.

 

[Kite159]

The station is very busy especially towards Liverpool which is 13 miles away at weekends.

And some of those passengers might even buy a ticket

 

[MCR247]

I’m a regular commuter on the WCML and have spent many journeys battling, to no avail, with the on-board WiFi to find an answer to this question.

Given Avanti follows the high(ish) speed / intercity model – prioritising few, strategically placed stops to minimise journey time – the stop every WCML Liverpool branch train makes at Runcorn baffles me. It’s not a particularly big conurbation and Lime Street (20 mins), Crewe (27 min) and Warrington (25 mins) are all within striking distance via local rail, providing easy links to fast ‘main line’ services.

While the station seems reasonably well used, I’m sure you could make an argument that tens of other stations across the network would see similar use if Avanti stopped at it. I use these lines less frequently, but stops at Haymarket and Sandwell and Dudley could probably also go by this description as they're close to the origin / termination stations and well-served by local rail to the bigger hubs.

I’m sure there’s a reason for the stops at Runcorn, but it makes no logical sense to me. Given its proximity to Liverpool (let alone Crewe and Warrington) it seems directly contrary to the model. Could anyone enlighten me?

I would say this kind of thing is pretty common on Intercity services to/from London. The London end of the route will generally be the most congested part of the route, with fast trains pathed too closely together (or amongst other services) to allow them to stop too much at stations close to London. There often also isn’t capacity on the trains themselves to carry the additional shorter distance passengers who would now want to use their new fast service. This is less the case towards the far end of the route, where the trains will often service more ‘regional’ passengers as a lot of the London passengers will have alighted. Line speeds are also sometimes lower at this end of the route, meaning passing through non-stop gives less benefit.

Examples I would give on other lines are EMR Intercity services calling at Beeston and Long Eaton, Avanti services calling at Macclesfield, Wilmslow and Sandwell & Dudley, LNER calling at Northallerton, Alnwick, Morpeth, Dunbar etc. with there likely being lots of other examples.

 

[Djgr]

I’m a regular commuter on the WCML and have spent many journeys battling, to no avail, with the on-board WiFi to find an answer to this question.

Given Avanti follows the high(ish) speed / intercity model – prioritising few, strategically placed stops to minimise journey time – the stop every WCML Liverpool branch train makes at Runcorn baffles me. It’s not a particularly big conurbation and Lime Street (20 mins), Crewe (27 min) and Warrington (25 mins) are all within striking distance via local rail, providing easy links to fast ‘main line’ services.

While the station seems reasonably well used, I’m sure you could make an argument that tens of other stations across the network would see similar use if Avanti stopped at it. I use these lines less frequently, but stops at Haymarket and Sandwell and Dudley could probably also go by this description as they're close to the origin / termination stations and well-served by local rail to the bigger hubs.

I’m sure there’s a reason for the stops at Runcorn, but it makes no logical sense to me. Given it's proximity to Liverpool (let alone Crewe and Warrington) it seems directly contrary to the model. Could anyone enlighten me?

Runcorn is an easy drive off the M56 with lots of parking and therefore serves a wide area.

The alternatives Liverpool Lime Street, Chester and Warrington Bank Quay involve coping with a lot of traffic and/or inadequate parking.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The station is very busy especially towards Liverpool which is 13 miles away at weekends.

How many miles away is it in the week?

 

[voyagerdude220]

How many miles away is it in the week?

Dam, you beat me to it!
Yes I'm very pedantic..

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

1R18 06:43 Liverpool to London still runs non-stop from Runcorn (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C87925/2024-03-18/detailed#allox_id=0).

Runcorn is a reasonably accessible station from a large catchment area too - I used to work in Daresbury (south of Warrington) and most people there tended to use Runcorn station or advised visitors to come to Runcorn. It seems to have a good car park too. I'm aware that post-Covid business travel and parking are down dramatically in my own 'railhead' of Wilmslow but historically trains stop at Wilmslow and Runcorn for their hinterland as well as their localities.

Yes as a user of the synchronization at Daresbury I preferred to use Runcorn over Warrington when not driving or using Manchester airport.

 

[jfollows]

Yes as a user of the synchronization at Daresbury I preferred to use Runcorn over Warrington when not driving or using Manchester airport.

That’s probably the synchrotron I think (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchrotron_Radiation_Source) which I got to see shortly before it was decommissioned in 2008.

PS In case anyone asks, I know it's off-topic, but the tower visible from the WCML is a different thing again, built for the Nuclear Structure Facility project and essentially is a monster Van de Graaf generator built in the mid-1970s and turned off in 1993. Views from the top are pretty good!

 

[sjm77]

I totally get the Runcorn stop, for many people it's easier to drive there and park than into the Liverpool city centre. Runcorn is to the Liverpool trains what Stockport is to the Manchester trains. For the same reason more London to Glasgow trains now stop at Motherwell. That said, it does make sense for the 2nd hourly Liverpool train to stop at South Parkway instead to test the market there.

 

[Nottingham59]

Welcome to the forum.

Passenger flows are:

• Lime St to Euston: 1951/day
• Runcorn to Euston: 299/day
• Warrington to Euston: 309/day
• Crewe to Euston: 883/day

You're right in that fewer people use Runcorn than Lime Street.

But would it make sense to skip Runcorn? It only adds five minutes to the journey. While there is only 1tph Avanti service to Euston, it makes sense for all trains to stop there.

If there were a second Liverpool train each hour to Euston, one could miss out Runcorn. ~1000 passengers from Lime St would save 5 minutes (5000m), and 150 passengers from Runcorn would have to wait an extra 30 (4500m). So marginal. In reality, more Lime St passengers would take the faster service, so perhaps 1200 would save 5 mins = 6000m. And the Runcorn passengers would leave home 30 minute later = 0 min. And the second express train could miss out Crewe too, making the time saving even greater for through passengers.

Figures from https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/CRE/

 

[JW4]

If there were a second Liverpool train each hour to Euston, one could miss out Runcorn. ~1000 passengers from Lime St would save 5 minutes (5000m), and 150 passengers from Runcorn would have to wait an extra 30 (4500m). In reality, more Lime St passengers would take the faster service, so perhaps 1200 would save 5 mins = 6000m. And the Runcorn passengers would leave home 30 minute later = 0 min. And the second express train could miss out Crewe too, making the time saving even greater for through passengers.

Figures from https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/CRE/

As of the December 2022 timetable change, the planned stopping patterns for London-Liverpool were as follows:
South Parkway service:
London Euston, Milton Keynes, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway
Trent Valley service:
Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Runcorn

Source: https://railenable.com/oxcambpart4/...inline-timetable-Changes-by-Route-06-2227.pdf (West Coast Mainline December 2022
Timetable changes by route: Euston - Stafford - Crewe - Liverpool)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The original VHF timetable had stops at Runcorn and Stafford but missed out Crewe (the Glasgow service also omitted Crewe, being first stop Warrington, so 2tph non-stop through Crewe).
Gradually since then Crewe has been added back on most Liverpool trains, and Liverpool South Parkway will be on the second hourly train's schedule.
The Stafford stop has been transferred to Milton Keynes, with the Chester service picking up Stafford.

 

[Djgr]

Welcome to the forum.

Passenger flows are:

• Lime St to Euston: 1951/day
• Runcorn to Euston: 299/day
• Warrington to Euston: 309/day
• Crewe to Euston: 883/day

You're right in that fewer people use Runcorn than Lime Street.

But would it make sense to skip Runcorn? It only adds five minutes to the journey. While there is only 1tph Avanti service to Euston, it makes sense for all trains to stop there.

If there were a second Liverpool train each hour to Euston, one could miss out Runcorn. ~1000 passengers from Lime St would save 5 minutes (5000m), and 150 passengers from Runcorn would have to wait an extra 30 (4500m). So marginal. In reality, more Lime St passengers would take the faster service, so perhaps 1200 would save 5 mins = 6000m. And the Runcorn passengers would leave home 30 minute later = 0 min. And the second express train could miss out Crewe too, making the time saving even greater for through passengers.

Figures from https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/CRE/

Except every additional stop slows down the service for the main traffic flow and thereby makes it less attractive.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Except every additional stop slows down the service for the main traffic flow and thereby makes it less attractive.

I suspect this may have a negative affect on Avanti.

E.g. I recently helped a friend with ticket prices for travel from Crewe to London and back a few days later. Both ways WMR were considerably cheaper than Avanti and presumably because Avanti no longer run none stop between Crewe and London and vice versa, the time difference wasn't too much to justify paying the extra for Avanti either. In fact he said he thoroughly preferred WMR to Avanti. (sorry heading off topic.)

 

[mangyiscute]

I suspect this may have a negative affect on Avanti.

E.g. I recently helped a friend with ticket prices for travel from Crewe to London and back a few days later. Both ways WMR were considerably cheaper than Avanti and presumably because Avanti no longer run none stop between Crewe and London and vice versa, the time difference wasn't too much to justify paying the extra for Avanti either. In fact he said he thoroughly preferred WMR to Avanti. (sorry heading off topic.)

Most of the day time avanti services have one stop, at Stafford or Milton Keynes, which makes them around 30 minutes faster. Considering the huge difference in walk-up ticket price, I think most would agree that the wmr service makes more sense unless time is very crucial.

 

[Watershed]

Most of the day time avanti services have one stop, at Stafford or Milton Keynes, which makes them around 30 minutes faster. Considering the huge difference in walk-up ticket price, I think most would agree that the wmr service makes more sense unless time is very crucial.

Comfort is also a factor that has to be borne in mind and in this respect, the Avanti services are a lot better now that most sets are refurbished with power sockets at every seat.

Despite having a nearly 5 year headstart, WMT have made extraordinarily slow progress on refurbishing their 350s and so you still stand every chance of landing an unrefurbished 3+2 350/2. Hmm, no thanks!

Now yes, you do have declassified first - but a lot of people have cottoned onto this so it's often trickier to get a seat there.

 

[JonathanH]

Despite having a nearly 5 year headstart, WMT have made extraordinarily slow progress on refurbishing their 350s and so you still stand every chance of landing an unrefurbished 3+2 350/2. Hmm, no thanks!

Which 350/1s and 350/4s are still outstanding to be refurbished? Expecting refurbishment of the 350/2s is a bit much if they are due to be replaced, and the 350/3s aren't that old.

Comfort is also a factor that has to be borne in mind and in this respect, the Avanti services are a lot better now that most sets are refurbished with power sockets at every seat.

Yes.

 

[Watershed]

Which 350/1s and 350/4s are still outstanding to be refurbished?

I haven't kept track of the refurbishment threads so it might well be that all of those are refurbished. The key thing isn't whether the seats have new covers (though the 350/1s were in dire need of that!) but whether there are plug (or at least USB) sockets, for instance. It's a basic amenity I'd expect from most trains nowadys.

Expecting refurbishment of the 350/2s is a bit much if they are due to be replaced, and the 350/3s aren't that old.

Trains with much shorter anticipated lifespans have been refurbished - the 323s, for example. It's now been 8 years since WMT took over the franchise and I would be surprised if the 350/2s start being retired in earnest before the end of the year.

 

[childwallblues]

How many miles away is it in the week?

13.24!

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Yes, Runcorn is certainly well-used. The other factor to bear in mind, though I shall only whisper it, is that the general rail industry perception is that demand from Runcorn and Liverpool has never been that strong compared with eg Scotland and Manchester, ie. 1tph does just fine in most hours. The 2tph in the Avanti bid seems to have been more about ticking stakeholder boxes than revenue per se. This has translated to the idea that the journey time for Liverpool is not that critiical eg. compared with Manchester in particular, so a Runcorn stop and even one at Liverpool S. Parkway (although much harder to path as it's a busy station) would generate more net revenue. In other means the extra pax uplifted from Runcorn and Liverpool S. will be greater than those generated at Lime St if the trains were eg. 5-10 mins faster. Anyway, I said that I would only whisper this point. Others can comment on the pathing to/from Runcorn down in Lime St: it may be that it's quite hard to alter the Avanti timings given TPE/WM traffic and the huge amount of work that getting the VHF timetable in place required back a decade ago.

 

[Chris Hamilton]

The Avanti stop at Haymarket is mainly down to putting space between it and any train travelling along the Up Midcalder, which is not limited to the fast and slow Shotts services, but also freight coming off the Suburban Lines at Slateford (which then has a constant uphill slog to Midcalder Junction, or Cobbinshaw for Carstairs routings).

The signal sections along the Midcalder and (less so now since the resignalling) Shotts lines are almost comically long for an intercity route, with two aspect signals, intermediate distant signals. I believe some sections have an 8 minute headway at line speed, and as some Avanti services are timed to pass Midcalder Junction only 12 mins after the Shotts stopping service, any skipping of Haymarket would mean that Avanti train could constantly be hitting the Distant signals at Yellow.

As for Motherwell, which is as close to Glasgow as Runcorn is to Liverpool, it also should be remembered that Runcorn has a stopping service to Crewe which means you can at least travel in the right direction to make a connection, wasting minimal time. Motherwell has no such luxury. The next connection point south would be Lockerbie or Carlisle, but there is no southbound stopping service other than AWC or TPE, so to join most WCML services required travelling into Glasgow, which with the best connections could waste 45-60 minutes before you passed Motherwell again.

It was less of a problem when XC serviced Motherwell well, as one could simply hop over to Edinburgh for an LNER connection (if London was your destination), but XC have effectively abandoned Glasgow and Motherwell now, and I don’t see them ever returning.