Avanti this weekend and PRO rights. What’s my Plan B?

[SandsofEss]

I’m braving a trip from London to Scotland on Avanti this weekend with a 6yo. We’re travelling using a pair of complimentary first class returns.

We’re due to return on the 12:35 ex Glasgow. I want to have a Plan B ready should the journey be carnage.

As I understand it, if I’m likely to be delayed by an hour or more, the Rail Passenger Rights and Obligations (PRO) kicks in.

1. Is this correct?
2. Does this mean I can theoretically take a Scotrail train to Edinburgh then an LNER to London?
3. … and that I would be entitled to travel First Class on the LNER train?
4. What are my chances of finding an Avanti member of staff to ‘endorse’ my ticket to travel via this route? Based on previous experience with AWC customer service, I’m reluctant to buy a ticket myself and submit it for a refund.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

 

[Watershed]

As I understand it, if I’m likely to be delayed by an hour or more, the Rail Passenger Rights and Obligations (PRO) kicks in.

1. Is this correct?

If the anticipated delay is more than an hour, yes.

If the 12:35 were to be cancelled, the following train (13:32) is scheduled to arrive at Euston exactly 1 hour later. So if the 13:32 is expected to run on time, you wouldn't have any rights under Article 16 of the PRO.

If, on the other hand, the 13:32 is also disrupted (e.g. part cancelled or there are foreseeable delays en-route e.g. due to Special Stop Orders or speed restrictions), then your PRO rights would kick in.

Does this mean I can theoretically take a Scotrail train to Edinburgh then an LNER to London

If that's the earliest available opportunity to get to your destination, yes you would be entitled to be re-routed that way. Whether that's likely be the case depends on the level of disruption.

… and that I would be entitled to travel First Class on the LNER train?

If you are entitled to be re-routed, then this is in "comparable transport conditions". So yes, also in First Class given you have a First Class ticket.

What are my chances of finding an Avanti member of staff to ‘endorse’ my ticket to travel via this route?

I don't think it should be too hard to find an Avanti member of staff (they have a reasonable staff presence at Glasgow Central, both at the platform and with their "international" booking office). But finding one who is willing to re-route you... Probably a lot harder.

Based on previous experience with AWC customer service, I’m reluctant to buy a ticket myself and submit it for a refund.

Unfortunately this may be your least worst option if it all goes pear shaped.

 

[DelayRepay]

If the anticipated delay is more than an hour, yes.

If the 12:35 were to be cancelled, the following train (13:32) is scheduled to arrive at Euston exactly 1 hour later. So if the 13:32 is expected to run on time, you wouldn't have any rights under Article 16 of the PRO.

If, on the other hand, the 13:32 is also disrupted (e.g. part cancelled or there are foreseeable delays en-route e.g. due to Special Stop Orders or speed restrictions), then your PRO rights would kick in.

Genuine question - do PRO rights still apply when using a complimentary ticket, given that you've paid nothing and therefore it could be argued that no contract exists between the passenger and the railway?

 

[Watershed]

Genuine question - do PRO rights still apply when using a complimentary ticket, given that you've paid nothing and therefore it could be argued that no contract exists between the passenger and the railway?

I did anticipate that being raised

I don't think the fact that nothing has been paid is material. I don't imagine the tickets were just issued on a whim - they must have been issued in resolution of some sort of dispute/complaint etc. So the acceptance of the tickets (perhaps amongst other remedies) is likely to have constituted the requisite consideration for there to be a contract.

 

[SandsofEss]

Thank you @Watershed, your replies have been helpful.

It sounds as though LNER 'may' be an option, but it's more likely that I'll just end up having to queue on the concourse.

The free tickets were remedy after I spent 8 months chasing a refund after Avanti requested passengers avoid travelling on a July day last year. I did wonder if the tickets being free would add extra complexity. Certainly it makes the inevitable delay repay claim less rewarding!

 

[mmh]

I did anticipate that being raised

I don't think the fact that nothing has been paid is material. I don't imagine the tickets were just issued on a whim - they must have been issued in resolution of some sort of dispute/complaint etc. So the acceptance of the tickets (perhaps amongst other remedies) is likely to have constituted the requisite consideration for there to be a contract.

I've just read the legislation, having not heard of it before. There's no indication that your right to be conveyed or re-routed at the earliest opportunity has any connection to how you acquired a ticket. You'd not be entitled to any financial compensation for the journey, but that's not relevant here.

An eye opener - I will be writing to Avanti West Coast as they didn't fulfill their obligations when I had a 2 hour wait due to a missed connection and failed to re-route us which would have resulted in an hour late arrival rather than 2 hours.

 

[Trainbike46]

Would the ticket type be relevant here? if they are routed "Any permitted", you could presumably travel via Edinburgh with LNER if you so preferred anyway, and therefore wouldn't need to get an endorsement (could someone more knowledgeable confirm?). However, if they are routed Avanti only or via Crewe that obviously wouldn't work

 

[mmh]

Thank you @Watershed, your replies have been helpful.

It sounds as though LNER 'may' be an option, but it's more likely that I'll just end up having to queue on the concourse.

The free tickets were remedy after I spent 8 months chasing a refund after Avanti requested passengers avoid travelling on a July day last year. I did wonder if the tickets being free would add extra complexity. Certainly it makes the inevitable delay repay claim less rewarding!

Indeed, there is a big difference between what your rights are and whether you'll be allowed to exercise them on the day.

In my example, if I'd been travelling alone I would have just got on the first train to my destination, but then I am rather less accepting of jobsworths than many people, so I don't recommend that unless someone's willing to stand their ground.

 

[SandsofEss]

Would the ticket type be relevant here? if they are routed "Any permitted", you could presumably travel via Edinburgh with LNER if you so preferred anyway, and therefore wouldn't need to get an endorsement (could someone more knowledgeable confirm?). However, if they are routed Avanti only or via Crewe that obviously wouldn't work

It's an advance fare Avanti only unfortunately.

Indeed, there is a big difference between what your rights are and whether you'll be allowed to exercise them on the day.

In my example, if I'd been travelling alone I would have just got on the first train to my destination, but then I am rather less accepting of jobsworths than many people, so I don't recommend that unless someone's willing to stand their ground.

I'm very happy to stand my ground (once I know that ground is solid). But it sounds as though, even if the delay is over an hour, I'd need Avanti to endorse my ticket via LNER to avoid having to shell out for a new ticket myself - even if a refund would eventually be forthcoming.

 

[td97]

It is possible but unlikely Avanti will arrange ticket acceptance (usually this is only the case when imposed by Network Rail if there's an infrastructure failure/trespass type event).
Keep an eye on https://journeycheck.com/VT as this is the first place journey updates are posted.
I would also suggest having a message typed out in your phone notes app ready to send to Avanti social media customer services (on Twitter DM or Facebook Messenger) so that you can simply paste and send if/when any issues arise, and include an attachment/screenshot of your ticket. The minutes spent typing that message might make the difference between just catching a ScotRail+LNER or being delayed by another half hour, if you get a favourable reply.

 

[Mak1981]

It's worth pointing out that article 16 is an obligation on avanti to re route you, however if you self reroute so to speak there is no obligation for lner or scotrail to allow travel on an avanti ticket under article 16, article 16 applies to avanti and places obligations on them and not lner in this instance

NRCoC would put an obligation on lner in the event you were stranded ie if last avanti of day was cancelled etc

 

[Haywain]

It's worth pointing out that article 16 is an obligation on avanti to re route you, however if you self reroute so to speak there is no obligation for lner or scotrail to allow travel on an avanti ticket under article 16, article 16 applies to avanti and places obligations on them and not lner in this instance

Exactly. It would really be more appropriate to talk about the obligations of the operator (Avanti in this case) than the rights of the passenger.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are you travelling Saturday or Sunday ? Not likely to be many LNER trains on Saturday.

 

[SandsofEss]

It is possible but unlikely Avanti will arrange ticket acceptance (usually this is only the case when imposed by Network Rail if there's an infrastructure failure/trespass type event).
Keep an eye on https://journeycheck.com/VT as this is the first place journey updates are posted.
I would also suggest having a message typed out in your phone notes app ready to send to Avanti social media customer services (on Twitter DM or Facebook Messenger) so that you can simply paste and send if/when any issues arise, and include an attachment/screenshot of your ticket. The minutes spent typing that message might make the difference between just catching a ScotRail+LNER or being delayed by another half hour, if you get a favourable reply.

Thanks, that's a good tip.

Are you travelling Saturday or Sunday ? Not likely to be many LNER trains on Saturday.

Sunday mercifully.