Avanti to Preston and middle of the night cab to Edinburgh

[gazzaa2]

It might have went viral online but it's hardly that unusual. If you travel from London to Scotland, or vice versa, you always run the risk of getting turfed off at Preston. There's not always another train after it either.

I definitely wouldn't travel that full route on a bad weather day, unless it was an emergency and i'd check on the day of travel that Avanti appeared to have enough staff on that day.

 

[Class83]

Is your position that drivers were refusing actual contracted hours, and hence going on strike? Because that’s not what’s happened and that’s not how driver hours work.

I'm merely assuming a number of train drivers were on shift to drive trains which didn't operate. Had they operated trains on parts of the line which were open (Preston to Carlisle) they would have got some passengers to their destination and others a lot closer reducing the need for road transport. I didn't suggest drivers, unless volunteering should be required to work beyond the scheduled end of their shift.

Quite possibly a Glasgow driver who was stuck north of the blockage?

Or a Glasgow driver who was at Preston and who could have worked to Carlisle but would then have had to abandon the unit at Carlisle thus messing up the following day's service?

The Glasgow driver stuck north is the most plausible reason I can see for non availability. Though the other side of that is that the driver scheduled to take a southbound train from Preston wouldn't have a train to drive so could have taken a Northbound one, I think most Preston drivers cover both directions.

Not sure the unit being stuck in Carlisle is a problem, it would need to get to Glasgow when the route reopened anyway for the next days service.

 

[Purple Train]

Don't all trains for Edinburgh depart from London from Kings Cross?!

Well yes, it's a forgivable misconception - but nevertheless, I would rather a broadcaster on Radio 2 was abreast of all the facts he or she wished to mention...

 

[Lg_]

The Glasgow driver stuck north is the most plausible reason I can see for non availability. Though the other side of that is that the driver scheduled to take a southbound train from Preston wouldn't have a train to drive so could have taken a Northbound one, I think most Preston drivers cover both directions.

It depends on whether there were any Preston drivers on the depot. Generally the later trains into Preston from the North or South are Preston based crews, the ones in the middle of shifts are usually away crews who take a break before working back to their home depot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually, they didn't. The school party had to make their own arrangements.

Because, presumably, of their own Safeguarding policy. Complying with that isn't the railway's job.

If it came down to hotels the situation would be similar (hotels usually won't let kids in rooms on their own, but most youth workers aren't allowed to sleep in the same room as kids).

 

[AlterEgo]

Because, presumably, of their own Safeguarding policy. Complying with that isn't the railway's job.

If it came down to hotels the situation would be similar (hotels usually won't let kids in rooms on their own, but most youth workers aren't allowed to sleep in the same room as kids).

Does raise a broader point about safeguarding - whether it is in the interests of 12 year olds to go three to a taxi for 3 hours to their home, or to remain potentially stranded and roaming the streets with their teachers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does raise a broader point about safeguarding - whether it is in the interests of 12 year olds to go three to a taxi for 3 hours to their home, or to remain potentially stranded and roaming the streets with their teachers.

Some taxi/minicab drivers are DBS checked for 1:1 school/special needs traffic, so they may have been able to mitigate partly by way of trying to find some who are, possibly via a local private hire firm.

Is Preston staffed all night? It always used to be. If so the other option might be to sit the night out in the waiting room which wouldn't be pleasant but also wouldn't be unsafe.

 

[TheLunaPark]

I think a lot of people are being harsh on the railway.
I think this actually shows the railways in a good light if people think about it a bit more.
The fact that so many people had to be moved shows how many people a train actually moves and at at high speed over a long distance and a very high level of safety. Which is why we need them! You can't magic up at short notice or have on standby anything else that will move that many people that distance.
The railway got everyone to their stations. That is part of the reason trains are expensive because occasionally they have to spend a fortune on other transport to get people there.
The twitter thread also complains/mentions about passengers hearing their train was cancelled while on the train. That is the railway company doing everything it can to tell passengers ASAP what it knows.
The railway company can't be held responsible for the taxi drivers. They called a company and asked them to do a job. It is the taxi companies responsibility to look after their staff including charging a suitable rate if necessary to cover putting them up overnight.
The railway effectively this for its staff. Part of the reason railways cost is because they rightly have limits on hours.
What realistically could the railways actually do instead? If you have 10 20 or 30 coaches and drivers on standby at every station why bother with a railway at all and just use them instead.

Imagine defending Avanti in this instance. Jesus wept. You had around 50 young school children unable to get home and Avanti did sod all about it. Their eventual solution was sorted by the teachers. Any instance where vulnerable passengers such as children - especially when there are a lot of them - should activate some kind of emergency protocol where upper senior staff get involved and have additional powers to authorise hotels and transport, even if it means simply throwing money at the situation and booking an expensive coach or two at short notice.

 

[Falcon1200]

even if it means simply throwing money at the situation and booking an expensive coach or two at short notice.

Do we know that Avanti did not in fact try to obtain coaches (not just for the children, although they certainly should have been a priority) without success? When arranging replacement road transport coaches, for obvious reasons, are a far better solution than hordes of taxis.

 

[DarloRich]

Do we know that Avanti did not in fact try to obtain coaches (not just for the children, although they certainly should have been a priority) without success? When arranging replacement road transport coaches, for obvious reasons, are a far better solution than hordes of taxis.

we don't know that - but the tweets were quite clear that the teachers sorted transport via thier travel provider.

 

[AlterEgo]

We don't know that Avanti made *no* effort but it should be borne in mind they were also organising dozens of taxis and the children could have travelled with them other than the school's rules around safeguarding.

Note that the bus the teachers got was a 66-seater, a fairly nonstandard type of bus probably not in Avanti's contract, and likely was needed again, due to the staff to pupil ratio meaning two buses wasn't an option. It was provided by a bespoke school trip charter company. This isn't really defending Avanti - because we still don't know the full circumstances - but I think we all need to accept the reality of the situation.

The outcome is something both parties can learn from. It would be interesting to know if the school risk-assessed and planned for being unable to get back to their destination on the train, and it would be interesting to know if Avanti have any kind of contingency to account for travelling groups of young or vulnerable people who require a very specific number of seats in a single vehicle to travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Note that the bus the teachers got was a 66-seater, a fairly nonstandard type of bus probably not in Avanti's contract, and likely was needed again, due to the staff to pupil ratio meaning two buses wasn't an option. It was provided by a bespoke school trip charter company. This isn't really defending Avanti - because we still don't know the full circumstances - but I think we all need to accept the reality of the situation.

A 66 seems to be a 3+2 coach which would normally be banned from rail replacement as mentioned above. Possible I suppose that one of those was available but not a normal 2+2 one, but perhaps more likely that First Travel Solutions have a limited number of contractors?

 

[AlterEgo]

A 66 seems to be a 3+2 coach which would normally be banned from rail replacement as mentioned above. Possible I suppose that one of those was available but not a normal 2+2 one, but perhaps more likely that First Travel Solutions have a limited number of contractors?

The coach is a Neoplan Tourliner with 66+1 seats like this: https://www.drewwilson.co.uk/listings/2012-neoplan-tourliner/

It's 2+2 but is a very large coach; I don't think I have ever been on a coach with this many seats before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The coach is a Neoplan Tourliner with 66+1 seats like this: https://www.drewwilson.co.uk/listings/2012-neoplan-tourliner/

It's 2+2 but is a very large coach; I don't think I have ever been on a coach with this many seats before.

63 is the "standard" number of seats for a long wheelbase tri-axle single decker like that - I've hired one for a Scout trip before. Getting 3 more in probably isn't that hard - one of them in the coach pictured is clearly by putting 6 rather than 5 on the back row (3+2 width), and you can probably get the other two by squashing up the non-emergency-exit side a bit.

Edit: actually, with that one it looks like the extra 2 were gained on the emergency exit side by not having a toilet, that usually takes up about a row's worth.

Not likely to be comfortable, but at least the seats, bar the back row, would be wide enough for adults.

 

[TUC]

You should be able to read the original tweet here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1706433356186161479.html

Another tweet doing the rounds is here: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1706416734528270545.html



Where a coach full of schoolchildren were turfed out at Preston and ended up organising their own coach back to Glasgow as Avanti were unable to.

It does beg the question of how the school managed to find a coach when Avanti staff were incapable of doing so?

 

[trainophile]

I wouldn’t fancy taking a large number of children a long distance in a coach with no toilet in the middle of the night .

 

[AlterEgo]

It does beg the question of how the school managed to find a coach when Avanti staff were incapable of doing so?

They phoned their travel agent who would have an emergency line. It’s a bespoke agency dealing only with school trips. They also had at least five adults present and I also expect they didn’t have to order 100 taxis at the same time.

Unfortunately resources are very thin on the railway and getting replacement transport can be very difficult. Nonetheless that doesn’t excuse the operator here; there are definitely lessons to be learned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn’t fancy taking a large number of children a long distance in a coach with no toilet in the middle of the night .

Just have to make frequent toilet stops.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They phoned their travel agent who would have an emergency line. It’s a bespoke agency dealing only with school trips. They also had at least five adults present and I also expect they didn’t have to order 100 taxis at the same time.

Unfortunately resources are very thin on the railway and getting replacement transport can be very difficult. Nonetheless that doesn’t excuse the operator here; there are definitely lessons to be learned.

Communication is the main one. Staff shouldn't be finding out of a cancellation after passengers do, in particular - they should know what's happening when asked.

 

[stuving]

They phoned their travel agent who would have an emergency line. It’s a bespoke agency dealing only with school trips. They also had at least five adults present and I also expect they didn’t have to order 100 taxis at the same time.

Unfortunately resources are very thin on the railway and getting replacement transport can be very difficult. Nonetheless that doesn’t excuse the operator here; there are definitely lessons to be learned.

I'm bemused by the Manichean view, present in many of the posts here, that Avanti should have produced a complete onward travel solution for this group, and since they didn't they utterly failed. Surely a more likely scenario is something like:

Once Avanti staff know about this group, the group's leader and the senior Avanti staff member get together. They go over the various needs, restrictions, and options available. As soon as the idea of contacting the school's agents came up (and Avanti may have suggested it, based on previous experience) they agreed that was clearly the thing to try first.

If it works out, then (1) these specialists know what the school's rules and requirements are, (2) they may have access to operators that Avanti and their agents don't, and (3) they will be working in parallel with Avanti, not using their already overloaded resources. Both sides are in contact with their management up the chain, so any big bills can be signed off. No brainer, isn't it?

 

[AdamWW]

Communication is the main one. Staff shouldn't be finding out of a cancellation after passengers do, in particular - they should know what's happening when asked.

It's not that unusual, these days, in my experience.

On the one hand it shows how good the information provided to passengers can be.

On the other hand, if passengers can be told, why can't staff?

(Though I appreciate that even if a message was sent at the same time to passengers and the guard, it's quite likely that the first people to read a message will be passengers because there are more of them and the guard may well be doing something else at the time).

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, if passengers can be told, why can't staff?

(Though I appreciate that even if a message was sent at the same time to passengers and the guard, it's quite likely that the first people to read a message will be passengers because there are more of them and the guard may well be doing something else at the time).

One would have thought with good communication from Control the staff would be warned "your train may terminate short at Preston, just so you know" long before the actual decision was made and it was dropped into the various online systems so things like Trainline (which does notify you of a cancellation on your booked train) picked it up.

 

[Furrball]

I was travelling from Crewe to Glasgow and my experience was:

When starting my journey to Crewe, the Avanti website was showing a tick for service status. Only when looking at the detail was it seen that all lines were blocked at Lockerbie

I worked out my backout plans if it all went wrong but felt that it was worth proceeding as I had option (If I had known that it was not a track defect but rather a bridge inspection I may have reconsidered...)

I was travelling on the 1808 departure from Crewe - which arrived at Crewe 25 late

The train manager apologised for the delay and announced estimated arrival times but only as far as Preston. No comment was made of the line blockage

Looking at Traksy I saw that there as a block on the line but once we were around Wigan this had been removed. No sign of any train movements though

At 1926 I receive an email from Avanti to say that the journey was being cancelled at Preston (this was just on the approach to Preston)

There was no announcement from the train manager regarding the termination of the service

I left the train and visited the bathroom and checking what was going on with a service that was due to run southbound and then as I walked back around trhe station noticed large numbers of people around the doors of the service I had not long gotten off!

There were no audible announcements on the station and it was general chaos

Initially it looked like it was a lost cause with the vestibules being full - looking through the windows it was clear that there was still space in the aisles. So embracing the strategy that used to be needed on Thameslink in the days of the 319 a bang on the window, a gesture to move down and then shouting from the vestibule was initally met with a response of "there is no more room".... only for then people to move down and space for 5 extra people to appear

After that it was in the circumstances an OK journey - albeit stood in the vesitbule! People were in relatively good moods, helping passegers on and off and squeezing in to let people to the toilet. At one point the TM announced on depature from a station "this is the whatever time service it is meant to be now service to Glasgow Central" which got a chuckle

It seemed that a good job had been done at Carlisle with alternative transport as there were very few passengers waiting to board

 

[Oxfordblues]

There seems to be more disruption today. 1M12 for example has been at Penrith for over an hour: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L33785/2023-09-29/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[trainophile]

Loads terminating at Preston according to Avanti Journey Check. Signals again.

Preston is going to be horrendous this evening.

 

[AdamWW]

Preston is going to be horrendous this evening.

I have a colleague who on seeing that would say "Just this evening?"

But I quite like the place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a colleague who on seeing that would say "Just this evening?"

But I quite like the place.

The station is impressive (but has very poor facilities, in common with Bristol Temple Meads, and is utterly freezing on a cold night and if it's windy the roof has a habit of losing glass panels onto the floor) but the staff are beyond incompetent at dealing with severe disruption.

 

[AdamWW]

The station is impressive (but has very poor facilities, in common with Bristol Temple Meads, and is utterly freezing on a cold night and if it's windy the roof has a habit of losing glass panels onto the floor) but the staff are beyond incompetent at dealing with severe disruption.

I was relying on the ambiguity over whether "Preston" referred to the station or the town...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was relying on the ambiguity over whether "Preston" referred to the station or the town...

Ah.

I sort of like it but sadly it seems to be following Blackburn in becoming quite run down with a lot of antisocial behaviour along Fishergate in the evenings, particularly centred around the small supermarket (I forget which one it is, Sainsburys Local I think). It's not the place it was when I was a kid and used to often visit for a ride on the Ormskirk-Preston Pacer and a KFC (which, notably, is the first one that was ever opened in the UK, there's a little plaque in there saying so).

Outside the centre, other than a few nice bits like Fulwood, it's rather grim though.