Avanti WC down the pan again

[Signal Head]

Several late and cancelled trains on the Manchester route this evening, including, apparently, the last Manchester-Euston at 21:15. NRE showing shortage of traincrew as the reason.

The previous 20:15 left over half an hour late, it looks like its incoming Down train was cancelled so has presumably used the set from the next arrival.

What's the protocol in this case? I don't know what the usage of the 21:15 is like, but I can imagine some rather p'd off passengers turning up for the 21:15 at various points en-route, and finding that there isn't one.

Are AWC going to supply taxis, or would they have been better delaying the 20:15 by a full hour to take passengers for the 21:15 as well (acknowledging that this decision could be influenced by other factors like traincrew hours)?

I can't say I'd be overly thrilled by a 188 mile taxi ride!

 

[Bletchleyite]

2115 was P-coded on Monday - I wonder if they forgot to today?

 

[Gaelan]

What's the protocol in this case? I don't know what the usage of the 21:15 is like, but I can imagine some rather p'd off passengers turning up for the 21:15 at various points en-route, and finding that there isn't one.

There's a viable route via Birmingham, assuming ticket acceptance were to be arranged:

21:25 Manchester Picc - Birmingham New St 22:57 (CrossCountry)
23:22 Birmingham New St - Euston 01:26 (Avanti)

Possibly better to taxi, though, than delay passengers by an hour and a half this late at night.

 

[Signal Head]

2115 was P-coded on Monday - I wonder if they forgot to today?

That's all very well, but if you habitually travel on it you may just turn up expecting that, as the last train of the day, special efforts will be made to run it. What if people have been sold advance tickets or otherwise have reservations on it, I don't imagine AWC would be able, or even try, to notify them?

Is it really just left to all intending passengers to check for themselves that the service is running, repeatedly and in sufficient time to make other arrangements, even assuming they are able to do so?

Pretty poor show I think, and does the industry no favours at all.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Avanti seem to have discovered a novel way of massaging their performance statistics: if a train's late, simply renumber it. Today for example 1M08 arrived Preston 63 minutes late at 13:01. It was promptly cancelled, renumbered 1M09 and departed at 13:08 - just 8 minutes late!

 

[Craig1122]

Is it really just left to all intending passengers to check for themselves that the service is running, repeatedly and in sufficient time to make other arrangements, even assuming they are able to do so?

Pretty poor show I think, and does the industry no favours at all.

Since "Timetable of the day" was included in the NRCoC that seems to be exactly what's expected of passengers.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There's a viable route via Birmingham, assuming ticket acceptance were to be arranged:

21:25 Manchester Picc - Birmingham New St 22:57 (CrossCountry)
23:22 Birmingham New St - Euston 01:26 (Avanti)

Surely ticket acceptance wouldn't be needed, they'd be stranded. Condition 28.2 of the NR CoT would kick in and permit them on that XC train.

Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Surely ticket acceptance wouldn't be needed, they'd be stranded. Condition 28.2 of the NR CoT would kick in and permit them on that XC train.

And onward taxis from Euston would cost them a lot lot less than a taxi for everyone from Piccadilly.

 

[Gaelan]

Surely ticket acceptance wouldn't be needed, they'd be stranded. Condition 28.2 of the NR CoT would kick in and permit them on that XC train.

NRCoT 28.2 would also be satisfied with an Avanti-supplied hotel or taxi, so it's not necessarily an unconditional right to board the XC train.

 

[david l]

Avanti seem to have discovered a novel way of massaging their performance statistics: if a train's late, simply renumber it. Today for example 1M08 arrived Preston 63 minutes late at 13:01. It was promptly cancelled, renumbered 1M09 and departed at 13:08 - just 8 minutes late!

Not the first time this week that a southbound AWC Glasgow-Euston has arrived at Preston, stopped for about an hour and then taken up the path of the following Glasgow-Euston.

 

[Bletchleyite]

NRCoT 28.2 would also be satisfied with an Avanti-supplied hotel or taxi, so it's not necessarily an unconditional right to board the XC train.

Though it's a Permitted Route on a flexible ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Surely ticket acceptance wouldn't be needed, they'd be stranded. Condition 28.2 of the NR CoT would kick in and permit them on that XC train.

I agree

NRCoT 28.2 would also be satisfied with an Avanti-supplied hotel or taxi, so it's not necessarily an unconditional right to board the XC train.

I disagree; if XC are in a position to help, then they must do so. The only way they could somehow argue they aren't, is if the train is full & standing.

Though it's a Permitted Route on a flexible ticket.

So it's a moot point in this case anyway, as the ticket would be valid without relying on either acceptance or 28.2

 

[43055]

Avanti seem to have discovered a novel way of massaging their performance statistics: if a train's late, simply renumber it. Today for example 1M08 arrived Preston 63 minutes late at 13:01. It was promptly cancelled, renumbered 1M09 and departed at 13:08 - just 8 minutes late!

But for your example you still have two part cancelations. To the passenger south of Preston though the two services had little disruption as 1T08 ran at the same times as 1M08. Cross Country also do this at New Street to reduce disruption from one 'leg' of the network being passed onto another by 'stepping back' an hour and restarting services.

 

[DMU180]

Can’t quite believe what I’m seeing at Euston this evening, only 1 train running from EUS - LIV this evening after the 16:43.

17:43 EUS - LIV cancelled
18:43 EUS - LIV cancelled
19:07 EUS - LIV cancelled
19:43 EUS - LIV cancelled
20:43 EUS - LIV running
22:00 EUS - LIV cancelled

Brought to you by the train company who doesn’t rely on overtime!

Avanti West Coast admits: we’re not good enough but are making progress | Rail industry | The Guardian

Operator insists service will be turned round by Christmas as travellers report late and overcrowded trains

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Bletchleyite]

Brought to you by the train company who doesn’t rely on overtime!

Presumably a bit of the winter sniffles going round, meaning they are forced to!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Can’t quite believe what I’m seeing at Euston this evening, only 1 train running from EUS - LIV this evening after the 16:43.

17:43 EUS - LIV cancelled
18:43 EUS - LIV cancelled
19:07 EUS - LIV cancelled
19:43 EUS - LIV cancelled
20:43 EUS - LIV running
22:00 EUS - LIV cancelled

Brought to you by the train company who doesn’t rely on overtime!

Avanti West Coast admits: we’re not good enough but are making progress | Rail industry | The Guardian

Operator insists service will be turned round by Christmas as travellers report late and overcrowded trains

amp.theguardian.com

Unless there is an infrastructure issue one has to question how this can come about as that is 5 different drivers diagrams so must have been obvious prior to start of action they were diagrams that couldn't be covered.

 

[BPN2022]

This week has been awful up north. Not much better down south but this is the worst overtime ban impact I’ve seen. And surely these companies don’t rely on overtime to this amount.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

This week has been awful up north. Not much better down south but this is the worst overtime ban impact I’ve seen. And surely these companies don’t rely on overtime to this amount.

Overtime plus spare crew already utilised due to sickness and annual leave. Means far more turns are vacant.

 

[FManc]

There’s no RDW agreement in place at the moment so expect the whole of December to be rough on the WCML.

 

[Sleepy]

Hope a lot of the passengers caught up in this week's reduced services are going to contact their MP to express their views ?

 

[Merseysider]

Atrocious today also. I’m going from Warrington to Birmingham.

1542: cancelled
1642: deleted
1742: cancelled
1842: cancelled past Crewe
1942: cancelled EDB-PRE

Not much better for anyone wanting the fasts to London with both 1425 and 1625 cancelled. 1827 and 1927 north both cancelled too… and the weather (particularly the wind) in Warrington is really starting to pick up now.

Thankfully they have put in special stops at Crewe and Stafford on the 1725 “fast” to London.

Edited to note: The first train WBQ-BHM since 1442 to actually run via Brum, without being cancelled or part cancelled, is the 2129… an almost 7 hour gap. Despite the SSO on the train that ran, still very very poor.

 

[londonmidland]

I’m at Crewe right now and the last Avanti West Coast service to London Euston was at 18:32. The next direct one is at 20:23.

So almost a 2 hour gap between a direct AWC service to Euston. Unsure if there’s ticket acceptance with LNR.

 

[northwichcat]

Can’t quite believe what I’m seeing at Euston this evening, only 1 train running from EUS - LIV this evening after the 16:43.

While a train I caught from Euston towards Manchester did run, for a while it showed the allocated train as a 5 car Voyager, departing from the same platform a 10 car Voyager had arrived from Edinburgh via Birmingham. (I had a reservation for coach F!) That changed to no allocation and then to an 11 car Pendolino. The platform number was only displayed around 3 minutes before the scheduled departure time, so it ended up starting 5 minutes down.

 

[Kernow_Celtic]

Its about time AWC is allowed to recruit drivers the way GwR has been allowed to do this past 5 years or so and really swell the numbers. Relying on overtime just isn't the way forward. They need a big recruitment drive for tens of qualified drivers.

 

[Train_manager]

Its about time AWC is allowed to recruit drivers the way GwR has been allowed to do this past 5 years or so and really swell the numbers. Relying on overtime just isn't the way forward. They need a big recruitment drive for tens of qualified drivers.

Aslef and I agree. The railway should not be run on o/t. But AWC don't normally take on qualified drivers and I've got no interest in working for the shower of ....,

 

[NSE]

Went London to Macclesfield yesterday and went St. Pancras - Derby - Stoke - Macclesfield. Admittedly to clear the Derby - Stoke line but was also very happy to avoid Avanti as I knew something would go wrong.

 

[winks]

The Times gives a detailed explanation:

Why are Avanti trains so unreliable and how do they get away with it?

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

The row between Avanti and Aslef can be traced back to August 2022, when Avanti managing director Phil Whittingham wrote to industry colleagues lamenting “unofficial strike action by Aslef members”...

Archaic working practices are more deeply embedded at Avanti because the west coast main line has been largely untouched operationally since privatisation in the 1990s. Most other operations have been amalgamated or divided over the years, often resulting in renegotiations of working arrangements. So, for example, it is still the case that a spare driver in one of Avanti’s eight depots cannot be asked to fill in if there are shortages at another...

The drivers also have the whip hand when it comes to taking holiday. A quirk of Avanti’s contractual working arrangements leave managers powerless to refuse holiday requests, in contrast to other train lines, which can refuse annual leave applications if they are short-staffed...

 

[FManc]

The Times gives a detailed explanation:

Why are Avanti trains so unreliable and how do they get away with it?

The Times & The Sunday Times

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times

www.thetimes.co.uk

A lot of rubbish that is simply untrue in that article in relation to driver T&Cs.

 

[winks]

Is it true regarding managers unable to refuse annual leave ?

 

[FManc]

Is it true regarding managers unable to refuse annual leave ?

100% not true! I’ve not even a clue where that’s come from.