Avanti WC down the pan again

[coppercapped]

A lot of rubbish that is simply untrue in that article in relation to driver T&Cs.

As someone who is not in the railway industry I would find it of interest if you could go through the article point for point and make it clear to the rest of us exactly which statements are 'rubbish' or incorrect and why.

 

[FManc]

As someone who is not in the railway industry I would find it of interest if you could go through the article point for point and make it clear to the rest of us exactly which statements are 'rubbish' or incorrect and why.

“So, for example, it is still the case that a spare driver in one of Avanti’s eight depots cannot be asked to fill in if there are shortages at another”

Not true. Spare drivers can pick up cross depot work on the day; it happens all the time.

“A quirk of Avanti’s contractual working arrangements leave managers powerless to refuse holiday requests, in contrast to other train lines, which can refuse annual leave applications if they are short-staffed”

Not true. Each depot has a small quota for guaranteed leave. Anything over that quota is declined. It’s always a common occurrence to have drivers being declined leave during popular dates; mostly weekends, summer holidays and December.

“£100k salary”

Pure and utter sensationalism. That’s £32,500 in overtime - the amount of hours you’d have to put in to get that would send the majority of drivers to an early grave. It’s not the norm by any means - I think I’ve only ever known one driver to reach that.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Looks to be another day of possible misery, with train crew issues causing cancellations on the Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham routes.

It seems to be affecting the AngloScots now too with several trains either cancelled throughout or starting/terminating at Preston.

Edinburgh looks to be quite affected by it with the 06:52 and 10:52 starting from Preston, with the 12:52 terminating at Preston, leaving the only direct trains at 08:52 and 14:52.

I was supposed to be on the 06:52 for Euston, but it seems like two Mondays in a row the service has started from Preston.

Ironically, when I done the same thing last year... the train was also starting from Preston.

It's a farce.

 

[jagardner1984]

Given that the “best practice of the market” seems to be all that this group of politicians seem to understand, it would be interesting to see how staffing / spare / overtime / leave is handled by for example EasyJet / Stena Line / National Express.

I would think they at least would understand that abandoning passengers and their multi million pound equipment in different airports / ports / depots wasn’t great for either their business or their operational stability.

As an outsider, it would seem generally counter productive for everyone to spend so much of each day consumed by so much hatred for one another, and whilst logically I agree with ASLEF / RMT that below inflation or zero pay rises (ie Pay cuts) are unacceptable and I support their right to strike, I suspect that when (if) some form of renationalisation happens, and there is no longer the line “foreign companies skimming profits off our railways” - which looks increasingly thin the more companies fail and are absorbed by OLR, we shall be having many of the same discussions when the employer is more directly HM Treasury, whether that be in the form of Mr Harper, Ms Haigh, or for that matter anyone else.

I think those hoping the public finances will support corrective pay rises are likely to be very disappointed - no matter who is victorious politically in 2024.

As most here have done, the Murdoch party line (Times, Sun etc) should be taken with a sizeable pinch of salt.

 

[Chrism20]

Looks to be another day of possible misery, with train crew issues causing cancellations on the Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham routes.

It seems to be affecting the AngloScots now too with several trains either cancelled throughout or starting/terminating at Preston.

Edinburgh looks to be quite affected by it with the 06:52 and 10:52 starting from Preston, with the 12:52 terminating at Preston, leaving the only direct trains at 08:52 and 14:52.

I was supposed to be on the 06:52 for Euston, but it seems like two Mondays in a row the service has started from Preston.

Ironically, when I done the same thing last year... the train was also starting from Preston.

It's a farce.

Wednesday and Thursday were the only days last week that the 0652 managed to do the full journey. It either started or terminated at Preston Monday, Tuesday and Friday. I'm on it on Thursday and can't say I'm looking forward to it at the moment.

 

[Efini92]

Its about time AWC is allowed to recruit drivers the way GwR has been allowed to do this past 5 years or so and really swell the numbers. Relying on overtime just isn't the way forward. They need a big recruitment drive for tens of qualified drivers.

Have you not seen how many trainees Avanti has been recruiting?

 

[Toby268]

Is it true regarding managers unable to refuse annual leave ?

If anything they are doing the complete opposite.

 

[Miken]

Avanti seemed to have a 'reasonable' patch late Summer early Autumn but since then the service is dire. Last week every train I was booked on was cancelled or late and the knock-on for my business is really concerning. They have now had the temerity to turn down a delay repay on the 6/12 1030 departure from Euston where we had to sit waiting for 30 minutes whilst the driver had their breakfast, departure just after 11am and we virtually crawled on the down fast all the way to Rugby ("following a stopping train" was the excuse) and finally arrived into Wigan 66 mins late. Avanti have rejected the claim saying its Northern's fault (my ticket was through to Parbold via Wigan Wallgate) so I've now got the hassle of appealing and if that doesn't work writing with a complaint. All of this costs time, stress and more than "any inconvenience caused" the often repeated non-apology. Travelling by rail used to be a pleasant experience; it is now a stressful and most hateful way of getting around.

 

[Falcon1200]

An interesting journey with Avanti WC from Glasgow Central to Euston today. Firstly, credit to Avanti and Network Rail on the operations side, the train ran throughout and on time; So it can be done. Not quite so impressive on the customer care side of things however, very much a journey of two halves.
Glasgow C-Preston; Excellent, multiple announcements from Train Manager, Shop Operative and First Class catering staff, with assiduous provision from the latter.
Preston-Euston; Desperate, not a single announcement from the Train Manager, precisely one from the Shop Operative - to say they were closing - and no catering service, whatsoever, in First Class, also no warning or announcement of its lack; Passengers were reduced to knocking on the galley door to see if anyone was there, which there was not. Pathetic.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

An interesting journey with Avanti WC from Glasgow Central to Euston today. Firstly, credit to Avanti and Network Rail on the operations side, the train ran throughout and on time; So it can be done. Not quite so impressive on the customer care side of things however, very much a journey of two halves.
Glasgow C-Preston; Excellent, multiple announcements from Train Manager, Shop Operative and First Class catering staff, with assiduous provision from the latter.
Preston-Glasgow C; Desperate, not a single announcement from the Train Manager, precisely one from the Shop Operative - to say they were closing - and no catering service, whatsoever, in First Class, also no warning or announcement of its lack; Passengers were reduced to knocking on the galley door to see if anyone was there, which there was not. Pathetic.

Do you mean Preston-Euston with that 2nd point?

 

[gabrielhj07]

Firstly, credit to Avanti and Network Rail on the operations side, the train ran throughout and on time; So it can be done.

Quite something when this is worthy of applause.

 

[jagardner1984]

An interesting journey with Avanti WC from Glasgow Central to Euston today. Firstly, credit to Avanti and Network Rail on the operations side, the train ran throughout and on time; So it can be done. Not quite so impressive on the customer care side of things however, very much a journey of two halves.
Glasgow C-Preston; Excellent, multiple announcements from Train Manager, Shop Operative and First Class catering staff, with assiduous provision from the latter.
Preston-Glasgow C; Desperate, not a single announcement from the Train Manager, precisely one from the Shop Operative - to say they were closing - and no catering service, whatsoever, in First Class, also no warning or announcement of its lack; Passengers were reduced to knocking on the galley door to see if anyone was there, which there was not. Pathetic.

I’d totally agree on the two halves thing. Had a great crew out of GLC on the red eye on Saturday. No catering at the start (they joined at Carlisle I think) but the TM made me some toast and had a chuckle about reaching the limit of her cooking skill. Her thought and good humour really left a great impression.

It is amazing how in days of QR codes, hundreds of auto responses, auto delay repay and perhaps notably just a complete lack of human interaction, those moments of just one human being kind to another seem all the more important.

However, it does make me ponder what an after thought in general Catering and customer service now is on Avanti. A PA early on that the shop was Cash only because of the WiFi issue, and then a further PA from a clearly exasperated staff member south of Preston that the Reset to try and restore card payment had failed, and another shortly after the float had gone and the shop was now closed.

You have to pity the staff who have to handle such conditions and obviously not fit for even the most basic testing day to day, and remembering the days of a full squad appearing to do a meal service for two and a half cars of 1st - Standard Premium was perhaps their first statement of intent, but the capacity is so tiny now their Attitude seems to be “well if they all complain, (which statistically they won’t) how much will the refunds even cost us” - probably less than the additional training cost of recruiting and keeping sufficient additional staff to provide the advertised service.

Historic train operators certainly had their faults, but it seems it is entirely lost on most of the current long distance operators, that rail should be a *NICE* way to travel - an opportunity to socialise with travelling companions or get some work done, or a restful, comfortable environment, rather than just a glorified long distance commuter service, and the details of customer service and catering (or indeed having the reasonable expectation of the train you book getting you to your destination at some time close to your arranged time) are really important to providing that experience to passengers who do have many other (often far cheaper) options available to them.

One wonders if there has ever been a statistical analysis of the passenger recovery post covid that has been boosted by strong reliability and customer service performance, or suppressed by poor reliability and customer service performance. Because that should matter to us all as taxpayers, from a route (largely unchanged) which was paying substantial premiums to DfT for the privilege of operating the service (ie Profitable) - that poor performance is now, it would seem to me, costing us all hard cash !

 

[Scotrail314209]

My recent journey southbound on Avanti wasn’t the greatest either. First of all the train starting from Preston didn’t help, but TPE was decent enough.

The Train Manager promptly announced on departure from Preston that there was no first class service until Birmingham as the catering crew were still in Edinburgh, but FC passengers could claim a free drink from the shop.

The coffee machine had broken so it was just tea and instant coffee, which I didn’t mind. The lady in the shop was extremely pleasant and very friendly.

The hosts joined at Birmingham New Street and it was a bit naff. The lady doing the drinks seemed super disintrested (and put milk in before the tea, a heinous crime!) and the food on offer was limited to Bacon Sandwiches, Granola or Salmon (without the egg) because there wasn’t a chef onboard.

One thing about it is it can be very hit and miss, and the standard really does vary, but another factor is the attitude of the staff, they can either make or break a journey imo

 

[ScottGallagher]

I'm very surprised the catering offering has survived during the refurbishment programme in its current form. If Avanti wanted rid now would have been the time.

 

[jagardner1984]

I'm very surprised the catering offering has survived during the refurbishment programme in its current form. If Avanti wanted rid now would have been the time.

Presumably there is a requirement to have some first class to allow open ticket holders somewhere to go (whilst in the main moving to SP) and presumably it’s deemed embarrassing to offer those people nothing - so we offer them as little as possible (especially off peak) to ensure it doesn’t attract anyone, but at least can say “there is your 1st class meal”. I’d guess removing the shop would require bigger body shell changes (windows etc) and also generate demand for a trolley - difficult to deliver on a full and standing train. With the shop it’s the passenger’s problem to get there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

(and put milk in before the tea, a heinous crime!)

When pouring tea from a teapot into a china cup that is correct, it prevents the cup cracking due to boiling water. I'd expect, even though they aren't china cups, any "silver service" style operation to do the same.

The reason you don't do it with a teabag is that it's then too cold to brew properly.

 

[Falcon1200]

Do you mean Preston-Euston with that 2nd point?

I did indeed, thanks for noticing; Post duly corrected.

 

[TPO]

I’d totally agree on the two halves thing. Had a great crew out of GLC on the red eye on Saturday. No catering at the start (they joined at Carlisle I think) but the TM made me some toast and had a chuckle about reaching the limit of her cooking skill. Her thought and good humour really left a great impression.

It is amazing how in days of QR codes, hundreds of auto responses, auto delay repay and perhaps notably just a complete lack of human interaction, those moments of just one human being kind to another seem all the more important.

However, it does make me ponder what an after thought in general Catering and customer service now is on Avanti. A PA early on that the shop was Cash only because of the WiFi issue, and then a further PA from a clearly exasperated staff member south of Preston that the Reset to try and restore card payment had failed, and another shortly after the float had gone and the shop was now closed.

You have to pity the staff who have to handle such conditions and obviously not fit for even the most basic testing day to day, and remembering the days of a full squad appearing to do a meal service for two and a half cars of 1st - Standard Premium was perhaps their first statement of intent, but the capacity is so tiny now their Attitude seems to be “well if they all complain, (which statistically they won’t) how much will the refunds even cost us” - probably less than the additional training cost of recruiting and keeping sufficient additional staff to provide the advertised service.

Historic train operators certainly had their faults, but it seems it is entirely lost on most of the current long distance operators, that rail should be a *NICE* way to travel - an opportunity to socialise with travelling companions or get some work done, or a restful, comfortable environment, rather than just a glorified long distance commuter service, and the details of customer service and catering (or indeed having the reasonable expectation of the train you book getting you to your destination at some time close to your arranged time) are really important to providing that experience to passengers who do have many other (often far cheaper) options available to them.

One wonders if there has ever been a statistical analysis of the passenger recovery post covid that has been boosted by strong reliability and customer service performance, or suppressed by poor reliability and customer service performance. Because that should matter to us all as taxpayers, from a route (largely unchanged) which was paying substantial premiums to DfT for the privilege of operating the service (ie Profitable) - that poor performance is now, it would seem to me, costing us all hard cash !

Maybe it's the First group way of doing things, they have treated most long distance trains ex Paddington as glorified commuter trains serving Didcot and Swindon for years now...... the Hitachi trains replacing the HSTs just cemented the tendency.

TPO

 

[footprints]

Avanti tweeting about mincemeat and frangipane tarts in first class while casually cancelling 36 trains tomorrow (not to mention the additional partial cancellations). Talk about tone deaf.

 

[Chrism20]

Just had the email of doom telling me my train is cancelled tomorrow.

It's running as far as Preston but a quick glance at the website shows two of the three Southbound departures tomorrow between 0900 and 1030have been canned. I think I'll just wait in Edinburgh and get the next one as Preston could be messy I reckon and given the state of things it wouldn't surprise me if the one that does actually run is a 9 car

 

[Brooke]

Credit where credit is due: my wife’s train did arrive into Euston exactly on time this evening.

However this is the first train this year(!) to arrive exactly on time, northbound or southbound, which is beyond pathetic.

For the record: She made 82 journeys on Avanti in 2023, of which 1 arrived on time, 37 were under 15 mins late and 44 were more than 15 mins late.

(She and I have to keep a spreadsheet to make sure we can keep up with the Delay Repay bureaucracy)

 

[jagardner1984]

Credit where credit is due: my wife’s train did arrive into Euston exactly on time this evening.

However this is the first train this year(!) to arrive exactly on time, northbound or southbound, which is beyond pathetic.

For the record: She made 82 journeys on Avanti in 2023, of which 1 arrived on time, 37 were under 15 mins late and 44 were more than 15 mins late.

(She and I have to keep a spreadsheet to make sure we can keep up with the Delay Repay bureaucracy)

Avanti's New Years Resolution is to build on that 1.21% success rate.

 

[dk1]

Not looking good again today.

 

[coppercapped]

Not true. Spare drivers can pick up cross depot work on the day; it happens all the time.



Not true. Each depot has a small quota for guaranteed leave. Anything over that quota is declined. It’s always a common occurrence to have drivers being declined leave during popular dates; mostly weekends, summer holidays and December.



Pure and utter sensationalism. That’s £32,500 in overtime - the amount of hours you’d have to put in to get that would send the majority of drivers to an early grave. It’s not the norm by any means - I think I’ve only ever known one driver to reach that.

Thank you for the clarifications.

 

[Ju135]

The issue is that back in the VT days, staff would be willing to work RDs therefore accumulating quite a bit of annual leave. VT would allow a certain number of annual leave days to carry over the following year had to be used by end of Feb/Mar. This also prevented a mass of staff requesting leave at the same time towards the end of the year.
This year Avanti has put a stop to that meaning if leave has not been taken it will be lost. Therefore everyone has rushed to use all their leave by 31st December 2023. Now that all leave has been booked at the same time (all grades), AWC has pretty much shot themselves in the foot and cannot run a full timetable as promised. Self inflicted chaos.

 

[DaveB10780]

I was on the 2053 from Euston to Manchester this evening a nightmare journey. Was a 9 car rather than 11, left 10 mins late and very full declassified, lost time to Milton Keynes due to track issues, 2 freight trains were allowed to pass at Stafford. The final insult was we were stopped just outside Crewe for a few minutes then the Northern stopper was allowed to go first 1 minute ahead and we finally overtook at Chelford Loop. I also found the temperature very hot, the TM said every coach read 21 degrees. No idea where this is based because it was like being in a sauna.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Avanti tweeting about mincemeat and frangipane tarts in first class while casually cancelling 36 trains tomorrow (not to mention the additional partial cancellations). Talk about tone deaf.

I’ve found Avanti’s announcements to be very much like this, more so this year (or maybe it’s because I travel more by train now).

One example that stuck in my mind was (paraphrasing slightly) “scum class, we know there’s no seats, and people are sat in luggage racks, tables, the overhead racks and anywhere else they can find, but don’t worry, there’s nowhere to go, even if you could move, as the buffet is shut. First class - looks like there will be enough for seconds on breakfast if anyone wants some”.

Changing tack - is there an issue with coffee machines lately? I’ve been on 7 or 8 different services, all on different stock, that have had a fault with the coffee machine “but we’ve got instant!” I don’t remember going to a fast food/bakers/pub/supermarket chain where so many coffee machines are out of use across the chain?

 

[ChrisDY10]

Persuaded wife to travel by train from Birmingham to Milton Keynes to Luton Airport for a weekend break. We are booked on the 0921 from New Street - advance single. Woke up to a 5.30am email to say train cancelled - but don’t worry can get previous or next train. Guess what - previous train at 0821 cancelled as well! So currently sat on LNW ready for a row with the conductor if they try to charge us for a new ticket - on the basis LNW and Avanti are management contracts and all the fare revenue goes to Treasury anyway.

End result is that wife has decreed that stressful start to holiday means we will always drive to the airport in future as railways are completely hopeless

 

[MrPosh]

Persuaded wife to travel by train from Birmingham to Milton Keynes to Luton Airport for a weekend break. We are booked on the 0921 from New Street - advance single. Woke up to a 5.30am email to say train cancelled - but don’t worry can get previous or next train. Guess what - previous train at 0821 cancelled as well! So currently sat on LNW ready for a row with the conductor if they try to charge us for a new ticket - on the basis LNW and Avanti are management contracts and all the fare revenue goes to Treasury anyway.

End result is that wife has decreed that stressful start to holiday means we will always drive to the airport in future as railways are completely hopeless

To be fair, Luton Airport doesn't sound the best place to spend a weekend break, so I think your problems are just beginning.

 

[TheLunaPark]

How these muppets are still in charge is beyond me. Annoyingly, the OLR doesn’t appear to be any better if TpE etc are anything to go by. What a mess.