Avanti WC down the pan again

[TrainGeekUK]

The person hit by a train today and the damage to the overhead wires at Watford J certainly has caused significant disruption on top of the staff shortages.

 

[dk1]

How these muppets are still in charge is beyond me. Annoyingly, the OLR doesn’t appear to be any better if TpE etc are anything to go by. What a mess.

Nothing will change no matter who is at the controls. It is what it is.

 

[Silver Cobra]

The person hit by a train today and the damage to the overhead wires at Watford J certainly has caused significant disruption on top of the staff shortages.

I was on the train that hit the person. Understandably, with the nature of the incident, it took nearly 2 1/2 hours for us to get back on the move again (and we had to decamp at Watford Junction due to the severity of the damage to the train, which added further delays to everything behind us).

Thoughts certainly go to both the poor driver and the family of the person involved.

 

[GWVillager]

The days of VT feel almost utopian now - reasonable employer/employee relations, reliable service, coaches upon coaches of first class, all with proper catering.

I do wonder exactly what it would take for the DfT to bring AWC under the OLR. The WCML is arguably Britain’s flagship railway, and surely they’ve made enough of a mess of it already.

 

[NSE]

Persuaded wife to travel by train from Birmingham to Milton Keynes to Luton Airport for a weekend break. We are booked on the 0921 from New Street - advance single. Woke up to a 5.30am email to say train cancelled - but don’t worry can get previous or next train. Guess what - previous train at 0821 cancelled as well! So currently sat on LNW ready for a row with the conductor if they try to charge us for a new ticket - on the basis LNW and Avanti are management contracts and all the fare revenue goes to Treasury anyway.

End result is that wife has decreed that stressful start to holiday means we will always drive to the airport in future as railways are completely hopeless

There shouldn’t be a row. Even with an advance ticket, cancellations mean you are able to use reasonable trains, including by other operators. Don’t get me wrong, you can’t take the mick, you can expect to head up to Sheffield from Birmingham and then down to Luton. But using an LNWR in your situation should be absolutely fine.

 

[317 forever]

I’ve found Avanti’s announcements to be very much like this, more so this year (or maybe it’s because I travel more by train now).

One example that stuck in my mind was (paraphrasing slightly) “scum class, we know there’s no seats, and people are sat in luggage racks, tables, the overhead racks and anywhere else they can find, but don’t worry, there’s nowhere to go, even if you could move, as the buffet is shut. First class - looks like there will be enough for seconds on breakfast if anyone wants some”.

Changing tack - is there an issue with coffee machines lately? I’ve been on 7 or 8 different services, all on different stock, that have had a fault with the coffee machine “but we’ve got instant!” I don’t remember going to a fast food/bakers/pub/supermarket chain where so many coffee machines are out of use across the chain?

Yes, there was on the 11.15 from Manchester to London Euston on Wednesday 6th. I was relieved to have had an (albeit expensive) Eggnog Latte at Starbucks at Stockport before boarding the train.

In addition, card payments were being declined and they advised us we needed to pay by cash.

 

[dk1]

Changing tack - is there an issue with coffee machines lately? I’ve been on 7 or 8 different services, all on different stock, that have had a fault with the coffee machine “but we’ve got instant!” I don’t remember going to a fast food/bakers/pub/supermarket chain where so many coffee machines are out of use across the chain?

Used to get the same problem when onboard coffee machines were used on GA services. Was told it’s because they were not designed for all the shaking/rattling about and constant neutral sections they encounter on the move compared to those in shops etc.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The days of VT feel almost utopian now - reasonable employer/employee relations, reliable service, coaches upon coaches of first class, all with proper catering.

I do wonder exactly what it would take for the DfT to bring AWC under the OLR. The WCML is arguably Britain’s flagship railway, and surely they’ve made enough of a mess of it already.

You are forgetting who really is in charge now, the DfT are the ones giving out the instructions. OLR or Owning Group, it makes no difference. The TOCs are there to do what they are told and if, for example, they are told their staff cannot carry over leave for cost reasons, that is it.

 

[Boodiggy]

You are forgetting who really is in charge now, the DfT are the ones giving out the instructions. OLR or Owning Group, it makes no difference. The TOCs are there to do what they are told and if, for example, they are told their staff cannot carry over leave for cost reasons, that is it.

This is what is happening at AWC. I was told they want to finalise a deal with their staff to end to strikes and other action but the DfT will not let them. The West Coast service is a joke.

 

[modernrail]

I see Avanti are at it again, causing me and thousands of others severe hassle just before Christmas as we all try and see our friends and families.

What do they mean by ‘we are seeing some short notice cancellations’???? Train services are not celestial events. Avanti - you mean ‘we are cancelling at short notice trains across our network’.
It is an action, not an observation. Take some bloody responsibility in your wording at the very least.

 

[GWVillager]

You are forgetting who really is in charge now, the DfT are the ones giving out the instructions. OLR or Owning Group, it makes no difference. The TOCs are there to do what they are told and if, for example, they are told their staff cannot carry over leave for cost reasons, that is it.

I know, but that does not change the drastic deterioration in service quality. This cannot go on forever (it did not with TPE), so I'm wondering when the DfT will consider it necessary to be seen to be "doing something about it", even though their "doing" is a major contributing factor to this mess.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Yes, there was on the 11.15 from Manchester to London Euston on Wednesday 6th. I was relieved to have had an (albeit expensive) Eggnog Latte at Starbucks at Stockport before boarding the train.

In addition, card payments were being declined and they advised us we needed to pay by cash.

That’s another common problem, the card machine not working. The times it does, they say no cash, then when it breaks expect you to use cash.

It feels like a business in its death-throes to be honest, almost like they’ve given up on providing a decent service to passengers.

Used to get the same problem when onboard coffee machines were used on GA services. Was told it’s because they were not designed for all the shaking/rattling about and constant neutral sections they encounter on the move compared to those in shops etc.

I did wonder if they’d cheaped out on the machines. I’m guessing there must be transport rated ones out there? We used to have coffee machines (although not bean to cup) on coaches decades ago that seemed to be capable of working fine!

I also wondered if they don’t get cleaned properly at the end of shifts, possibly because everyone is waiting for the collapse of the company, and ground coffee can gunk up loads of stuff…

 

[Bungle965]

Used to get the same problem when onboard coffee machines were used on GA services. Was told it’s because they were not designed for all the shaking/rattling about and constant neutral sections they encounter on the move compared to those in shops etc.

The good news though is that new coffee machines are being fitted very very soon.

This should help with the unreliable machines, also around the card machines the previous Zonal system is being ripped out currently (a product that was very much not suited to being on a train!) and an ECR mobile unit being fitted for the shop in addition to 1st.

 

[43066]

You are forgetting who really is in charge now, the DfT are the ones giving out the instructions. OLR or Owning Group, it makes no difference. The TOCs are there to do what they are told and if, for example, they are told their staff cannot carry over leave for cost reasons, that is it.

This is still being allowed at other TOCs (mine for example). If people can show they’ve applied for leave and had it declined, as is happening a lot at the moment, they can carry forward to use next year. That’s the arrangement that has worked well for years.

It does sound as though Avanti have a particular industrial relations culture which is contributing to the issues there, that goes even beyond the current government interference.

 

[dk1]

The good news though is that new coffee machines are being fitted very very soon.

This should help with the unreliable machines, also around the card machines the previous Zonal system is being ripped out currently (a product that was very much not suited to being on a train!) and an ECR mobile unit being fitted for the shop in addition to 1st.

Good news on the horizon

 

[FManc]

Good news on the horizon

The good news though is that new coffee machines are being fitted very very soon.

This should help with the unreliable machines, also around the card machines the previous Zonal system is being ripped out currently (a product that was very much not suited to being on a train!) and an ECR mobile unit being fitted for the shop in addition to 1st.

Yep the new card/till system thingy (I forget the name) was rolled out this week. Similarly the roll out of the new coffee machine commences next week but obviously it’ll take a while to get installed on the whole fleet.

 

[dk1]

Yep the new card/till system thingy (I forget the name) was rolled out this week. Similarly the roll out of the new coffee machine commences next week but obviously it’ll take a while to get installed on the whole fleet.

It’s crazy the new payment system has taken so long. I cannot remember the last time I heard of any issues paying by card/phone this way. I always ensure I have cash wherever I go just incase but know many people who are not so organised.

 

[TheSmiths82]

How do Avanti make any money? Surely the delay pay claims but be close to their total income. It is about time railway companies were heavily fined for cancellations due to problems with the TOC.

 

[dk1]

How do Avanti make any money? Surely the delay pay claims but be close to their total income. It is about time railway companies were heavily fined for cancellations due to problems with the TOC.

They are just a concession so get a small percentage of all income for running the TOC. The government take all the financial risk.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They are just a concession so get a small percentage of all income for running the TOC. The government take all the financial risk.

No, they don’t get a percentage of income. Income goes to Government (who also pay for all the costs). They just get management fees - a basic fee and a contract performance fee which can be up to 2.5 times the basic fee.

The owning groups have been pressing for some kind of bonus if they grow revenue past the DfT target figure and that may come in the 2024/5 financial year.

They are also pressing for some consistency in some of the DfT decisions as you can get one DfT minder telling you to do one thing and, in another TOC, another DfT minder telling them to do the complete opposite!

 

[dk1]

No, they don’t get a percentage of income. Income goes to Government (who also pay for all the costs). They just get management fees - a basic fee and a contract performance fee which can be up to 2.5 times the basic fee.

The owning groups have been pressing for some kind of bonus if they grow revenue past the DfT target figure and that may come in the 2024/5 financial year.

They are also pressing for some consistency in some of the DfT decisions as you can get one DfT minder telling you to do one thing and, in another TOC, another DfT minder telling them to do the complete opposite!

A bonus for growth would be an excellent idea as would allowing more day to day decisions back for the TOC to agree without DfT interference. They however must take responsibility for allowing training and recruitment to fall apart as badly as it did.

 

[Clarence Yard]

To be fair to Avanti (and other TOCs), recruitment and training has been very tightly controlled by the DfT. They see it as a major cost line and the least the latter is authorised, the better.

 

[Peter0124]

Do we think the current government are the reason for Avanti's frequent cancellations? Eg the gov not resolving the strikes, though I don't know about the staff shortages.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, they insisted that Avanti staff leave couldn’t be carried over into 2024, as a cost saving. There has also been a problem with authorising a RDW agreement. It all has to be approved by the DfT.

So they prefer to see cancellations rather than give way, for financial reasons. It won’t, of course, stop them blaming a TOC when they are challenged on the performance of that TOC.

 

[dk1]

Yes, they insisted that Avanti staff leave couldn’t be carried over into 2024, as a cost saving. There has also been a problem with authorising a RDW agreement. It all has to be approved by the DfT.

Another 100% own goal to the DfT What on earth is wrong with this rotten to the core department?

 

[riceuten]

Though it's a Permitted Route on a flexible ticket.

For the couple of percentage points of 2nd class passengers with a flexible ticket

 

[Kernow_Celtic]

The view from the Dft that controlling recruitment is necessary is an extremely short sighted argument. When you look at the costs every time a train is cancelled due to no driver, whereby every prospective passenger will be entitled to (in the case of thr hourly Liverpool or Glasgow trains a decent proportion of their money back in delay repay) it soon adds up. The daily cost of the driver (for arguments sake 300 quid?) pales in comparison with the amount of money the TOC (ultimately the taxpayer) then pay out in compensation. Someone at Dft needs to take the bull by the horns and organise a massive driver recruitment at Avanti. It worked for a long time on gWR with countless drivers taken on. The foot has come off the pedal now and cancellations are re emerging as driver recruitment has slowed down. Drivers are not a particularly expensive commodity when viewed in a holistic way, they earn more for the TOCs than they cost. If only DAFT realised this.

 

[peter166]

ITV news item

One third of Avanti trains delayed or cancelled last week

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2023-12-19/one-third-of-trains-delayed-or-cancelled-over-the-last-week-new-data-shows

 

[Oxfordblues]

The're very clever at massaging the performance statistics. When there are delays north of Preston and, for instance, 1M08 arrives let's say 58 minutes late it's simply renumbered 1M09 and departs on time!

 

[Skiddaw]

I see I was dead lucky on my trip down south to stay with friends last weekend. I travelled down to Euston on Thursday and back on Sunday and not only were both trains running they were on time. I could barely believe it. Bet that never happens again. And I got a cheapo Seatfrog upgrade on the way back. Result!