Avanti WC down the pan again

[45107]

The're very clever at massaging the performance statistics. When there are delays north of Preston and, for instance, 1M08 arrives let's say 58 minutes late it's simply renumbered 1M09 and departs on time!

A repeat of post #5 in this thread (by yourself) and explained in post #13.

Both trains will be treated as (part) cancelled and therefore fail any punctuality target.

 

[peter166]

Another press report with a bit more detail/comment

Avanti West Coast cancellations and delays prompt calls for urgent review

Transport for the North says service is deteriorating fast, with fewer than half of trains running on time

uk.finance.yahoo.com

 

[zwk500]

The're very clever at massaging the performance statistics. When there are delays north of Preston and, for instance, 1M08 arrives let's say 58 minutes late it's simply renumbered 1M09 and departs on time!

That would count as two part-cancellations though so it's not exactly a winning formula.

 

[Bikeman78]

I was on the train that hit the person. Understandably, with the nature of the incident, it took nearly 2 1/2 hours for us to get back on the move again (and we had to decamp at Watford Junction due to the severity of the damage to the train, which added further delays to everything behind us).

Thoughts certainly go to both the poor driver and the family of the person involved.

You'd have to be in a really bad place to think that jumping in front of a train is the best option. Doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[jfollows]

Reported in part of a longer article (https://www.theguardian.com/busines...west-coast-cancellations-delays-urgent-review) in which Transport for the North has written to complain about recent poor performance:

… an internal Avanti employee survey has highlighted the depth of disillusionment felt by workers at the FirstGroup and Trenitalia joint venture. Out of more than 2,000 respondents, only 7% said they felt happy and 3% said they felt valued, while 56% said they felt unappreciated.

Asked if they believed Avanti West Coast was “committed to delivering good service for its customers”, only one in five staff agreed. Fewer than one in six would recommend Avanti as a place to work, while only one in 10 said they thought any action would be taken as a result of the survey.

 

[43066]

Reported in part of a longer article (https://www.theguardian.com/busines...west-coast-cancellations-delays-urgent-review) in which Transport for the North has written to complain about recent poor performance:

I read this earlier. Shortage of train crew “due to historic leave arrangements” is an interesting statement from the company. It’s been reported on here by @Clarence Yard that the issue is due to the DfT preventing unused ad hoc leave being rolled over to next year (this in itself is odd, because it’s inconsistent with the position at other TOCs, where leave that is declined can be rolled over). Presumably this means more are needing to take it now than otherwise would.

AIUI (from statements on here by Avanti staff, and those i know who have moved there) Avanti’s ad hoc leave arrangements are a few slots per depot guaranteed, with everyone else potentially being declined if their work can’t be covered - ie exactly the same arrangements as elsewhere. This *should* mean the max number off due to AL at any point is always known and predictable. I can only think perhaps they’re letting more than the minimum number take leave because of the ban on rolling over.

Could anyone clarify?

 

[Taunton]

A contrast with former times is that Virgin had experience from aviation, where you get a huge loss to the business if all the necessary staff are not all in place, or need replacing at considerable training cost if they quit, so you need to understand how worthwhile it is to look after them. In contrast the "bus bandits", as Roger Ford terms them, are used from upper management to dealing with staff of a more here today, gone tomorrow aspect, squeezed down to national minimum pay rate where possible, treated as expendable and readily replaceable, etc. It's a different corporate culture.

One reads here that staff have suddenly been told that holiday entitlements cannot be carried forward into the following winter months, and so everyone is using them up in December. For a business such as long distance rail that is a nonsense to do over the Christmas period, and should surely have been picked up by senior management before it happened. If you look at airlines you find very little leave allowed now, but considerable flexibility to have it generously at times of reduced demand.

 

[thomalex]

Why does this company still have the contract again?

 

[Clarence Yard]

To do exactly what the DfT wants them to do, just like all the other companies.

Change the company, no difference - because the DfT “minder” doesn’t change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does this company still have the contract again?

I think one repeating theme on Avanti is that Virgin weren't *that* much better to staff (after all it's largely the same senior management) but that people put up with it due to the prestige of working for the Virgin brand.

I doubt it's possible for FirstGroup (Trenitalia seem to be a very minor partner, a bit like Keolis were for TPE, so FirstGroup tend to do this) to get this sort of loyalty. It hasn't even got a great olde-worlde railway brand (!) to identify with like GWR has.

 

[Llandudno]

The view from the Dft that controlling recruitment is necessary is an extremely short sighted argument. When you look at the costs every time a train is cancelled due to no driver, whereby every prospective passenger will be entitled to (in the case of thr hourly Liverpool or Glasgow trains a decent proportion of their money back in delay repay) it soon adds up. The daily cost of the driver (for arguments sake 300 quid?) pales in comparison with the amount of money the TOC (ultimately the taxpayer) then pay out in compensation. Someone at Dft needs to take the bull by the horns and organise a massive driver recruitment at Avanti. It worked for a long time on gWR with countless drivers taken on. The foot has come off the pedal now and cancellations are re emerging as driver recruitment has slowed down. Drivers are not a particularly expensive commodity when viewed in a holistic way, they earn more for the TOCs than they cost. If only DAFT realised this.

I would imagine that the cost of delay repay claims pales into insignificance compared to the loss of trust in the railway leading to an overall reduction in passengers and revenue on the West Coast.

Yet more custom for our Airlines, long distance coach services and even more traffic in the M1/M6 etc..

 

[43066]

A contrast with former times is that Virgin had experience from aviation, where you get a huge loss to the business if all the necessary staff are not all in place, or need replacing at considerable training cost if they quit, so you need to understand how worthwhile it is to look after them. In contrast the "bus bandits", as Roger Ford terms them, are used from upper management to dealing with staff of a more here today, gone tomorrow aspect, squeezed down to national minimum pay rate where possible, treated as expendable and readily replaceable, etc. It's a different corporate culture.

One reads here that staff have suddenly been told that holiday entitlements cannot be carried forward into the following winter months, and so everyone is using them up in December. For a business such as long distance rail that is a nonsense to do over the Christmas period, and should surely have been picked up by senior management before it happened. If you look at airlines you find very little leave allowed now, but considerable flexibility to have it generously at times of reduced demand.

Agree re the first paragraph.

Re the second, the way these arrangements generally work on the railway *should* mean the company can deny AL requests beyond a few guaranteed slots, thus giving the company control over the max number off at a time. The usual expectation is that, where someone has leave declined, this can then be rolled over to next year.

I suspect what’s really happening is that they simply don’t have enough staff to crew the services, even with only the guaranteed AL staff off, which ultimately points to simply having too few staff.

 

[Carlisle]

I think one repeating theme on Avanti is that Virgin weren't *that* much better to staff (after all it's largely the same senior management) but that people put up with it due to the prestige of working for the Virgin brand.

I doubt it's possible for FirstGroup (Trenitalia seem to be a very minor partner, a bit like Keolis were for TPE, so FirstGroup tend to do this) to get this sort of loyalty. It hasn't even got a great olde-worlde railway brand (!) to identify with like GWR has.

Sounds like you’ve summed up the realities on the ground pretty accurately.

 

[jfollows]

Many companies like Avanti have an obligation to consider the needs of at least three groups,

1. the shareholders
2. the employees
3. the customers

Companies in which the bean-counters get too much power tend to focus on the first of these, at the expense of the other two. Not allowing earned holidays to be carried over is one of these - there are more gradual ways to introduce these kinds of controls, which consider the employees' needs more, but I've been in companies also in which these sorts of things were introduced in a short time because of the bean-counters and their bonus payments.
It has always seemed to me that these companies don't pay enough attention either to the needs of the employees or the requirements of the customers. So the former leave, over time, and the latter take their business elsewhere. The companies don't tend to notice because both of these tend to happen slowly, people just can't resign en masse or take their business elsewhere easily. But it appears to be happening to Avanti.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Companies in which the bean-counters get too much power tend to focus on the first of these, at the expense of the other two. Not allowing earned holidays to be carried over is one of these - there are more gradual ways to introduce these kinds of controls, which consider the employees' needs more, but I've been in companies also in which these sorts of things were introduced in a short time because of the bean-counters and their bonus payments.

Holiday carryover is mired in complexity and faff particularly given that employers aren't only required to offer the legal minimum but ensure it is taken. As such my employer has never allowed it but for very exceptional circumstances. However, to introduce a ban on it isn't something to do at the last minute, as demonstrated here, you do it as "from the next holiday year" so people can take it into account when planning at the start of the year.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Holiday carryover is mired in complexity and faff particularly given that employers aren't only required to offer the legal minimum but ensure it is taken. As such my employer has never allowed it but for very exceptional circumstances. However, to introduce a ban on it isn't something to do at the last minute, as demonstrated here, you do it as "from the next holiday year" so people can take it into account when planning at the start of the year.

Exactly. It's no good decling holiday in May and saying you can carry it over, then getting to December and saying you have to take it now!

What I don't understand is how trains can be cancelled at the last minute because of this. Surely even Avanti management have enough brain cells between them to be able to count the number of trains they run and the number of crews they have and realise some will be cancelled? Why is it left till the train is halfway through its journey before anyone realises? Avanti aren't the only ones doing this, London Northwestern are really bad at it. Are lots of train crew simply going home part way through a shift? If not, they must know the rest of the shift isn't operating either, yet they wait till a few minutes before departure before realising there is no crew.

 

[43066]

Sounds like you’ve summed up the realities on the ground pretty accurately.

Brand loyalty really isn’t a thing on the railway, in my experience. To really know whether things were better under Virgin you’d need to speak to staff who’ve worked under both.

Holiday carryover is mired in complexity and faff particularly given that employers aren't only required to offer the legal minimum but ensure it is taken. As such my employer has never allowed it but for very exceptional circumstances. However, to introduce a ban on it isn't something to do at the last minute, as demonstrated here, you do it as "from the next holiday year" so people can take it into account when planning at the start of the year.

For railway operational staff leave is generally only allowed to be rolled over where you can show you’ve applied for it and had it declined, which often happens at this time of year. Even then it’s usually required to be used by march 31 of the following year. These arrangements gives the TOCs the ability to cap the numbers taking leave at busy times, as noted above.

However it wouldn’t really be cricket to tell staff at the last minute that the leave that keeps being declined now cannot be rolled over. It will cause (yet more) loss of goodwill, and the temptation for some would inevitably be to simply go sick, or not work a rest day they were intending to. So that kind of practice will have a negative impact on the business

 

[GWVillager]

I think one repeating theme on Avanti is that Virgin weren't *that* much better to staff (after all it's largely the same senior management) but that people put up with it due to the prestige of working for the Virgin brand.

I doubt it's possible for FirstGroup (Trenitalia seem to be a very minor partner, a bit like Keolis were for TPE, so FirstGroup tend to do this) to get this sort of loyalty. It hasn't even got a great olde-worlde railway brand (!) to identify with like GWR has.

Brand loyalty really isn’t a thing on the railway, in my experience. To really know whether things were better under Virgin you’d need to speak to staff who’ve worked under both.

From what I’ve heard from ex-VTWC staff, there was a genuine loyalty and pride in the Virgin brand. I remember, potently, travelling on the last day of VT and a train manager gave a heartfelt thanks and said how honoured she was to work for Virgin. Some stations were also decked out in red bunting, and staff clearly put a little more effort into their uniforms than usual! There was an unusually celebratory, if a little melancholy, atmosphere. You certainly wouldn’t get any of that if Avanti were to go.

Many of the same employees I knew under VT are extremely deflated, now, and you can’t blame them. Some have left AWC anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many of the same employees I knew under VT are extremely deflated, now, and you can’t blame them. Some have left AWC anyway.

The thing that astonishes me is that, aside from the high quality of the refurbishment, the whole Avanti "feel" is just lackadaisical and a bit rubbish. The so-called super-premium first class isn't anything of the sort, the livery is bland and cheap, the promotional material poor and so on. The whole thing just has a feel of "cheap and nasty" in every way except the fares (!) and the new interiors.

Yet FirstGroup does have experience of coming up with good brands - GWR to me still has a nice "feel" to it and has a proper old-railway feel for staff to be proud of. LNER seems to manage similar using the old-railway style brand and has put a lot of effort into the booking interface, e.g. the ease of getting a reservation with seat selection and the consistency between TVM, app and website.

I had genuinely expected it to play on the Italian theme, with hand-stitched Recaro leather seats in 1st, an Italian-themed menu including pasta and risotto*, Illy espresso in the buffet and the likes**. But it does nothing of the sort. It just exudes mediocrity. Bar the choice of seating in Standard, there's nothing whatsoever to be proud of in the entire operation.

* Conveniently foods that are dead easy to microwave.
** Crikey, I even gave them a strapline for free early on - "travel with a bit of Italian flair" - but there's no flair whatsoever about any of it.

 

[GWVillager]

The thing that astonishes me is that, aside from the high quality of the refurbishment, the whole Avanti "feel" is just lackadaisical and a bit rubbish. The so-called super-premium first class isn't anything of the sort, the livery is bland and cheap, the promotional material poor and so on. The whole thing just has a feel of "cheap and nasty" in every way except the fares (!) and the new interiors.

Yet FirstGroup does have experience of coming up with good brands - GWR to me still has a nice "feel" to it and has a proper old-railway feel for staff to be proud of. LNER seems to manage similar using the old-railway style brand and has put a lot of effort into the booking interface, e.g. the ease of getting a reservation with seat selection and the consistency between TVM, app and website.

I had genuinely expected it to play on the Italian theme, with hand-stitched Recaro leather seats in 1st, an Italian-themed menu including pasta and risotto*, Illy espresso in the buffet and the likes**. But it does nothing of the sort. It just exudes mediocrity. Bar the choice of seating in Standard, there's nothing whatsoever to be proud of in the entire operation.

* Conveniently foods that are dead easy to microwave.
** Crikey, I even gave them a strapline for free early on - "travel with a bit of Italian flair" - but there's no flair whatsoever about any of it.

I completely agree. It feels as if First went into the franchise without any ambition, which is odd given how much they clearly wanted it. I suppose COVID did for a lot of what “gusto” there was, but it nonetheless seems as if there was never very much to begin with.

 

[Efini92]

I read this earlier. Shortage of train crew “due to historic leave arrangements” is an interesting statement from the company. It’s been reported on here by @Clarence Yard that the issue is due to the DfT preventing unused ad hoc leave being rolled over to next year (this in itself is odd, because it’s inconsistent with the position at other TOCs, where leave that is declined can be rolled over). Presumably this means more are needing to take it now than otherwise would.

AIUI (from statements on here by Avanti staff, and those i know who have moved there) Avanti’s ad hoc leave arrangements are a few slots per depot guaranteed, with everyone else potentially being declined if their work can’t be covered - ie exactly the same arrangements as elsewhere. This *should* mean the max number off due to AL at any point is always known and predictable. I can only think perhaps they’re letting more than the minimum number take leave because of the ban on rolling over.

Could anyone clarify?

They must have the establishment calculator wrong. There’s no leave above the minimum guarantee and very few vacancies in the links. Every day the sheets have multiple leave declined on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I completely agree. It feels as if First went into the franchise without any ambition, which is odd given how much they clearly wanted it. I suppose COVID did for a lot of what “gusto” there was, but it nonetheless seems as if there was never very much to begin with.

I can't help but think what they wanted was the prestige of HS2, and in the meantime just wanted to run the WCML as cheaply and therefore profitably as possible. The refurb was I believe a franchise commitment, and I doubt the seats were any more expensive than Sophias given that they'd already been developed for Lumo on a commercial basis.

And yes, it was lackadaisical and rubbish from day one. COVID has affected performance as typical sick levels are now higher (in all franchises) than before because there's another disease knocking around to take people out*, but aside from that it's just the same as it was on day one - lackadaisical and can't-be-bothered from start to finish.

* Sure, office workers can go in if they've got a mild dose of COVID, but you don't want people who are ill, even mildly ill, doing safety critical roles as that leads to accidents.

 

[GWVillager]

I can't help but think what they wanted was the prestige of HS2, and in the meantime just wanted to run the WCML as cheaply and therefore profitably as possible. The refurb was I believe a franchise commitment, and I doubt the seats were any more expensive than Sophias given that they'd already been developed for Lumo on a commercial basis.

And yes, it was lackadaisical and rubbish from day one. COVID has affected performance as typical sick levels are now higher (in all franchises) than before because there's another disease knocking around to take people out*, but aside from that it's just the same as it was on day one - lackadaisical and can't-be-bothered from start to finish.

* Sure, office workers can go in if they've got a mild dose of COVID, but you don't want people who are ill, even mildly ill, doing safety critical roles as that leads to accidents.

It was Angel Trains that paid for the refurbishment wasn’t it? That might explain why it doesn’t fit the rest of the “Avanti image”!

It is possible that they were only really in it for HS2 (Trenitalia certainly was), but the original franchise was only supposed to last to 2026. I highly doubt they would have believed that HS2 was going to open by then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was Angel Trains that paid for the refurbishment wasn’t it? That might explain why it doesn’t fit the rest of the “Avanti image”!

Perhaps so. And it does have a number of bad bits. The foldable table "leaves" are drooping, the wireless charging is unreliable, the First Class headrests stick out into the back of your neck (I find Standard more comfortable by some margin) and the buffet is appallingly designed.

I love those Standard seats, but plenty of it could have been done much better!

 

[Deafdoggie]

plenty of it could have been done much better!

That sounds more like Avanti!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds more like Avanti!

It's slightly ironic that the excellent legroom was because they...couldn't be bothered to replace/move the reservations system so seats had to be in the same layout

 

[GWVillager]

It's slightly ironic that the excellent legroom was because they...couldn't be bothered to replace/move the reservations system so seats had to be in the same layout

The new reservation system is coming in the second part of the refurbishment I believe, which also includes new vestibules.

 

[Horizon22]

The're very clever at massaging the performance statistics. When there are delays north of Preston and, for instance, 1M08 arrives let's say 58 minutes late it's simply renumbered 1M09 and departs on time!

As stated several times to you before, this will not massage the perfomance statistics.

For railway operational staff leave is generally only allowed to be rolled over where you can show you’ve applied for it and had it declined, which often happens at this time of year. Even then it’s usually required to be used by march 31 of the following year. These arrangements gives the TOCs the ability to cap the numbers taking leave at busy times, as noted above.

However it wouldn’t really be cricket to tell staff at the last minute that the leave that keeps being declined now cannot be rolled over. It will cause (yet more) loss of goodwill, and the temptation for some would inevitably be to simply go sick, or not work a rest day they were intending to. So that kind of practice will have a negative impact on the business

Also you'd have to prove you didn't save it all up just to try and take it and what is known to be the most popular times (Christmas, Summer holidays) at relatively short-notice. It needs evidence of repeated, multiple attempts spaced out throughout the year for AL carryover to be approved generally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As stated several times to you before, this will not massage the perfomance statistics.

Doing this is known as "stepping up" (I think) and is quite sensible practice rather than confusing people by running a train exactly 60 minutes late. Though I saw the exact opposite done on LNR the other week which I suspect happened because of the overtime ban (I think we concluded that the driver was probably contracted to continue the delayed service which slotted into the path of a later one, but could legitimately have refused if he'd been asked to "step up").

 

[Horizon22]

Doing this is known as "stepping up" (I think) and is quite sensible practice rather than confusing people by running a train exactly 60 minutes late. Though I saw the exact opposite done on LNR the other week which I suspect happened because of the overtime ban (I think we concluded that the driver was probably contracted to continue the delayed service which slotted into the path of a later one, but could legitimately have refused if he'd been asked to "step up").

Stepping up is normally done at terminals/destinations though - doing it on the move is a bit of a quirky approach and the only benefit I can see is to update information screens for people south of Preston. Not seen it done really anywhere else. As you say it also poses a potential risk for crew diagrams.