Avanti WC down the pan again

[CHAPS2034]

It's funny how the money supposedly freed from HS2 has disappeared.

Into a pothole perhaps?

 

[6Gman]

Fairly standard business practice "pile it high, sell it cheap" If trains were cheaper, more people would use them, so they'd get more money.
In theory, this is what advance tickets are for. Sell off otherwise empty seats cheaply and that's all extra money for virtually no extra cost.

Fairly standard business practice where appropriate.

When trains are already full it doesn't work.

 

[Krokodil]

Yet National Rail is stating “Avanti: Good service”

Everything is relative, I suppose. By Avanti's usual standards having at least one train running might be considered a start.

unless they double the frequency and the opposite train is a 390/0 or 390/1

Isn't that exactly the plan?

Into a pothole perhaps?

Precisely what I was going to say. Is the North Circular far enough North for Notwork North?

 

[route101]

There was reference upthread to a “one and back” from virgin days. So is a standard working day for an Avanti driver or TM based at Polmadie

ECS to Glasgow
GLC to PRE
Break
PRE to GLC
Either ECS to Polmadie or some other transport back there ?

It would seem rather more efficient to keep people closer to their home bases and do a couple more workings, but perhaps there reasons why this doesn’t make sense ?

I believe Edinburgh is Polmadie operated to?

 

[trainophile]

Which escalator did you come down? The B end (Red Lounge) has 3 arrows, though it's still not plainly obvious where it's trying to show 4C is.

If I remember rightly, the A end lounge only show A and B as passengers are directed to the Red Lounge only for 4C so maybe they don't expect passengers to be going down the A end.

Pretty sure it was the B end as I don't remember needing to go through the barriers on arriving on P10 from Hereford, which is invariably 10B (although RTT is actually being non-committal about which end it arrived at 12:06 last Weds!). I am so used to the Liverpool LNR going from 5 or 6 that it confused me a bit. I may have missed seeing the sign for 4C, although it's odd that the other chap was also having trouble finding it. I'll have a better look next time.

One thing about the 4-coachers is that it does away with the need for the conductor to keep repeating about short platforms and having to be in the front four coaches., repeated at intervals through the journey and before every affected stop. That in itself must be a relief!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

One thing about the 4-coachers is that it does away with the need for the conductor to keep repeating about short platforms and having to be in the front four coaches., repeated at intervals through the journey and before every affected stop. That in itself must be a relief!

It is a bonus for sure! That and not having to hold trains while passengers walk through the gangway, or become abusive after they miss their stop (despite the announcements).

You do feel like you're constantly announcing short platforms on a New St - Lime St 8 car, pretty much every other station.

 

[AndrewE]

It is a bonus for sure! That and not having to hold trains while passengers walk through the gangway, or become abusive after they miss their stop (despite the announcements).

You do feel like you're constantly announcing short platforms on a New St - Lime St 8 car, pretty much every other station.

I just see that as inevitable if we have short stations. Given that we are not in the SE I can't see the investment to lengthen them coming anytime soon though. In my experience there is no excuse at all for passengers missing their stops. If BTP were up to their job (or riding shotgun) any abusive ones should be given the bum's rush and threatened with prosecution. Maybe excess-fared too, just to rub salt into the wound and make them pay attention to their surroundings in future!
I would still be interested to hear what proportion of those LNE traions are actually 8-cars though...

 

[irish_rail]

It would seem rather more efficient to keep people closer to their home bases and do a couple more workings, but perhaps there reasons why this doesn’t make sense ?

In a word No. This is the mistake TPE and to an extent GWR have made. The trouble is the minute there is disruption, crew are out of place and will not be there at Carlise when their rostered train arrives.

I do agree however that an avanti depot at Carlisle may have a limited use , but not sure it will happen.

 

[Carlisle]

I do agree however that an avanti depot at Carlisle may have a limited use , but not sure it will happen.

BR Inter City pulled out of Carlisle around 1993 I believe

 

[Horizon22]

BR Inter City pulled out of Carlisle around 1993 I believe

And having lots of "mini" depots is a reliability risk in itself.

 

[jagardner1984]

In a word No. This is the mistake TPE and to an extent GWR have made. The trouble is the minute there is disruption, crew are out of place and will not be there at Carlise when their rostered train arrives.

I do agree however that an avanti depot at Carlisle may have a limited use , but not sure it will happen.

Yes but the current arrangement seems to involve a significant chunk of the service between Preston and Glasgow / Edinburgh getting canned in any disruption. So whilst there is doubtless a reliability risk of any crew change (as currently occurs for literally half the entire WCML, by moving duties closer to the home base, logically do you not limit the impact ?

The difference it would seem from 1993 is that the intensity of the WCML timetable means it is virtually impossible to "get back on track" and therefore instant cancellations and dropping back an hour or 3 seems to be the order of the day.

Ultimately I suppose, and it would be the same for Easyjet, Calmac Ferries, National Express or indeed any of the rail operations, you need to have significant reserve capacity in each of the crewing locations in order to maintain the service, and that I assume is a reality which DfT is unwilling to engage with, and very happy to let Avanti and the various other operators feel the heat of public irritation at the resulting chaos.

 

[Scotrail314209]

It doesn't seem to have been too bad for the Scottish services today. The vast majority ran the full way with the exception of a few trains in the afternoon and early evening.

Edinburgh seemed to have been hit quite badly in the evening with the 1652 and 1852 both cancelled, and there was quite a crowd of passengers surrounding the lone Avanti staff member at Edinburgh from the 1852, and at that time there aren't many options to get them to Birmingham.

The only trains to run between Euston, Birmingham and Edinburgh were the 0616, 0840 and 1640(!). The others all terminated early or didn't run at all. The Edinburgh services seem to be fairly busy as they provide a quicker link than the CrossCountry service, even though at this stage the XC service might be more reliable.

Granted, the cancellations didn't seem to be as bad as last Saturday, but the last Glasgow of the night had terminated at Preston. Hopefully Avanti had arranged ticket acceptance or put on replacement travel, but that being said the last TPE service to Glasgow was at 17:01.

 

[dk1]

All is looking good today apart from one Euston-Edinburgh skipping the West Mids & a Manchester which will start Crewe. No cancellations planned so far.

 

[87015]

All is looking good today apart from one Euston-Edinburgh skipping the West Mids & a Manchester which will start Crewe. No cancellations planned so far.

Really? Its an emergency timetable with the last train off Euston at 1752

 

[dk1]

Really? Its an emergency timetable with the last train off Euston at 1752

Still a better effort than I expected today. Credit where it’s due and good to see many staff members will be able to see the new year in with friends and family.

 

[Jamesrob637]

All is looking good today apart from one Euston-Edinburgh skipping the West Mids & a Manchester which will start Crewe. No cancellations planned so far.

Looking at RTT, it's hard to tell whether the Manchester service even ran from Crewe.

 

[jfollows]

Looking at RTT, it's hard to tell whether the Manchester service even ran from Crewe.

It’s late leaving.
From https://www.journeycheck.com/avantiwestcoas

08:06 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly due 10:55 will be started from Crewe.
It will no longer call at London Euston, Watford Junction and Milton Keynes Central.
It is being delayed at Crewe and is now expected to be 25 minutes late.
This is due to a short-notice change to the timetable.

In platform 1 currently at Crewe

 

[dk1]

Looking at RTT, it's hard to tell whether the Manchester service even ran from Crewe.

If you look it’s running ECS from Euston as 5H63 and expected at 10:45. No TM I would imagine.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

As a semi-regular WCML user from Carlisle (for the Cumbrian Coast line) I can see that if Avanti drop everything above Preston, I can do TPE up and back, or go Northern via Furness (provided it isn’t too late at night that I’ll miss the last Barrow northbound).

What options are there if Avanti end up throwing the towel in going south from Preston? Northern/TPE to Manchester Piccadilly then Avanti south from there, or is that likely to be the same if they can’t resource the Prestons? Northern to Leeds and then ECML?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What options are there if Avanti end up throwing the towel in going south from Preston? Northern/TPE to Manchester Piccadilly then Avanti south from there, or is that likely to be the same if they can’t resource the Prestons? Northern to Leeds and then ECML?

Suppose travel via Liverpool Lime Street with Northern/TPE must also be a possibility in times of disruption, then onwards with Avanti or West Midlands Trains (change required) from there.

 

[jayah]

There was reference upthread to a “one and back” from virgin days. So is a standard working day for an Avanti driver or TM based at Polmadie

ECS to Glasgow
GLC to PRE
Break
PRE to GLC
Either ECS to Polmadie or some other transport back there ?

It would seem rather more efficient to keep people closer to their home bases and do a couple more workings, but perhaps there reasons why this doesn’t make sense ?

Presumably the TM would be based at Glasgow Central, so would not work ECS moves?
And no diagram would have both an ECS on and off? Most would have GLC-PRE & PRE-GLC with no ECS required for either.
Any sort of crew change will just add more friction - if you also swapped at Carlisle you just get more exposure to problems and more dead time in the duty hanging around waiting for the next working.

This is a recurring inefficiency of the privatised model and happens across long distance operators - there isn't enough time to get to Preston and back twice in one shift. In the BR operating model, they would have done something closer to Glasgow either at the start or the end, then you also get drivers qualified and maintaining competence on other types of stock and on diversionary routes. Here you get inefficiency, duplication of resource, narrow competence and engineering work inevitably means long distance coach operations.

The way it ought to be managed is via spare / standby resource, but that gets very expensive because in the current model each operator needs their own because nobody signs other operators stock or routes (3 different passenger TOCs at Preston).

 

[GordonT]

This is a recurring inefficiency of the privatised model and happens across long distance operators

The way it ought to be managed is via spare / standby resource, but that gets very expensive because in the current model each operator needs their own because nobody signs other operators stock or routes.

Anglo-Scottish operations from Edinburgh are a classic example of this with services fragmented between Avanti West Coast, Caledonian Sleepers, CrossCountry Trains, LNER, Lumo and Trans Pennine Express each with their own limited silos of traction and human resources and arcane procedures for co-operating (or not) in terms of ticket acceptance in response to disruption affecting one or more of the six fiefdoms.

 

[Toby268]

Anglo-Scottish operations from Edinburgh are a classic example of this with services fragmented between Avanti West Coast, Caledonian Sleepers, CrossCountry Trains, LNER, Lumo and Trans Pennine Express each with their own limited silos of traction and human resources and arcane procedures for co-operating (or not) in terms of ticket acceptance in response to disruption affecting one or more of the six fiefdoms.

At one point the current AWC Edinburgh depot, used to work VXC services down the east coast as far as Leeds, west coast to Preston, and up to Aberdeen before virgin lost XC and the staff split between XC and Virgin west coast And the Manchester services went to Transpennine. Now retaining only Edinburgh/Glasgow - Preston. A lot more productive back then, I imagine.

 

[Krokodil]

(3 different passenger TOCs at Preston).

Not forgetting any sleeper crews that may be based there. The sleeper used to be worked by VWC staff from Preston but now has in-house guards and hires drivers from GBRF.

 

[Dr Hoo]

N

At one point the current AWC Edinburgh depot, used to work VXC services down the east coast as far as Leeds, west coast to Preston, and up to Aberdeen before virgin lost XC and the staff split between XC and Virgin west coast And the Manchester services went to Transpennine. Now retaining only Edinburgh/Glasgow - Preston. A lot more productive back then, I imagine.

No doubt it all made sense to the franchising authority - SRA/DfT - all those years ago.

 

[jagardner1984]

You wonder whether anyone in Labour has the political skill to articulate the last few posts of this thread - because this dysfunctional fragmentation, deskilling and demarcation is arguably one of the greatest arguments for some form of unified “Great British Railways” or whatever we are calling it this week, far stronger than some of the arguments thus far presented.

And very pertinent as to why Avanti is such a deep state of permacrisis when so many micro factors can almost instantly scupper much of their operation.

 

[GordonT]

You wonder whether anyone in Labour has the political skill to articulate the last few posts of this thread - because this dysfunctional fragmentation, deskilling and demarcation is arguably one of the greatest arguments for some form of unified “Great British Railways” or whatever we are calling it this week, far stronger than some of the arguments thus far presented.

And very pertinent as to why Avanti is such a deep state of permacrisis when so many micro factors can almost instantly scupper much of their operation.

Unfortunately the genie has been out of the bottle for so long that there are unlikely to be many folk still around with the bottle to enable its retrieval.

 

[exbrel]

according to RTT it looked as if all the AWC services EUS to PICC departed within a couple of mins of departure time sunday... those i was watching for a family member, and other services seemed ok except for WMT. Could this have been a practice run for the New year?

 

[geoffk]

You wonder whether anyone in Labour has the political skill to articulate the last few posts of this thread - because this dysfunctional fragmentation, deskilling and demarcation is arguably one of the greatest arguments for some form of unified “Great British Railways” or whatever we are calling it this week, far stronger than some of the arguments thus far presented.

And very pertinent as to why Avanti is such a deep state of permacrisis when so many micro factors can almost instantly scupper much of their operation.

But do any of the DfT civil servants understand what's being said here and some of the other posts above? I assume all those who transferred from the SRA have long ago left or retired. Civil Servants are, almost by definition, non-specialists. Same goes for the Treasury. All they see is the need to reduce costs without understanding why they are so high.

 

[TrainGeekUK]

More disruption today….


Cancellations to services between Oxenholme Lake District and Carlisle

Due to a fault with the signalling system between Oxenholme Lake District and Carlisle all lines are blocked.
What is the impact on AWC services
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed by up to 60 minutes. Disruption is expected until 13:00 07/01.
Additional Information