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Avanti West Coast cancellations

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Huntergreed

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AIUI it is retirements (and other leavers), training suspension, significantly increased absence rates, plus a planned expansion of crew requirements to accommodate additional services and the training for the new stock.
Ahh fair enough - this problem is significantly bigger than I initially expected!

Is there any info on when these trainee crew members went into (or more importantly, will come out of) training? When are enough to run the May 22 timetable going to be available (I’m guessing not before the December recast)?
 
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dk1

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It was very slow out of the blocks getting a training agreement.
The other thing that’s made it worse is there’s been quite a few who have retired earlier than anticipated.
Thank you. That sort of explains things. Can’t blame those going early. Sad it was so unprepared on everything else.
 

Bald Rick

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Did Avanti just give up during the pandemic or could they not get union agreements? I’m struggling to understand how this TOC lost the plot as badly as it has.

it was only your TOC and one other that got quick union agreements to start training again, as a trial for others to follow, but I’m afraid others didn’t. In your case presumably (I don’t know) it got agreed because drivers really quite looked forward to the new units and wanted to get on with it. The others all struggled to a greater of lesser degree to gain agreement on the same principles as you.


Ahh fair enough - this problem is significantly bigger than I initially expected!

Is there any info on when these trainee crew members went into (or more importantly, will come out of) training? When are enough to run the May 22 timetable going to be available (I’m guessing not before the December recast)?

Well this timetable is in the system for 4 weeks, so I guess it is planned there will be some services reinstated then. I guess we’ll have to wait and see how many.
 

Efini92

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Thank you. That sort of explains things. Can’t blame those going early. Sad it was so unprepared on everything else.
No I don’t either. There’s too many that work until the end only to drop dead within a year of finishing.

I don’t think the problem would’ve been so severe had covid not happened. A mate of mine started in Jan 2020 got through his 390 course and started road learning, then had to sit at home for 18 months whilst everything was sorted out.
 

Huntergreed

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Well this timetable is in the system for 4 weeks, so I guess it is planned there will be some services reinstated then. I guess we’ll have to wait and see how many.
Call me pessimistic, but I have absolutely no hope that this will be anywhere near resolved by then.

Especially given that they aren’t even able to reliably run the very reduced timetable in place at present!
 

Efini92

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Call me pessimistic, but I have absolutely no hope that this will be anywhere near resolved by then.

Especially given that they aren’t even able to reliably run the very reduced timetable in place at present!
The summer leave will be more or less over by then, so it might not be quite as bad.
 

Bald Rick

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Call me pessimistic, but I have absolutely no hope that this will be anywhere near resolved by then.

It won’t be resolved by then, but should be better. A lot depends on the strike/ rest day situation of course.


Especially given that they aren’t even able to reliably run the very reduced timetable in place at present!

Today would have been much better had it not been for the signalling issues at Carstairs. Yesterday was unfortunate, but not Due to a shortage of traincrew.
 

LowLevel

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it was only your TOC and one other that got quick union agreements to start training again, as a trial for others to follow, but I’m afraid others didn’t. In your case presumably (I don’t know) it got agreed because drivers really quite looked forward to the new units and wanted to get on with it. The others all struggled to a greater of lesser degree to gain agreement on the same principles as you.




Well this timetable is in the system for 4 weeks, so I guess it is planned there will be some services reinstated then. I guess we’ll have to wait and see how many.
It's stupid really. Some TOCs still have COVID restrictions. Ours are long gone, and training restarted ages ago, for guards it never really stopped.
 

dk1

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No I don’t either. There’s too many that work until the end only to drop dead within a year of finishing.

I don’t think the problem would’ve been so severe had covid not happened. A mate of mine started in Jan 2020 got through his 390 course and started road learning, then had to sit at home for 18 months whilst everything was sorted out.
Yes some TOCs where very poor with training during Covid as has been said many times.

it was only your TOC and one other that got quick union agreements to start training again, as a trial for others to follow, but I’m afraid others didn’t. In your case presumably (I don’t know) it got agreed because drivers really quite looked forward to the new units and wanted to get on with it. The others all struggled to a greater of lesser degree to gain agreement on the same principles as you.
Yes was such a shame. Very proud of how we continued & helped newbies get through at what could’ve been a very difficult time.
 

Bald Rick

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Yes some TOCs where very poor with training during Covid as has been said many times.

It wasn’t for lack of effort on the TOC side. I spoke to a number of TOC people who were absolutely exasperated that they couldn’t gain agreement to recommence training, based on the same principles as was done at Greater Anglia.
 

158756

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It was very slow out of the blocks getting a training agreement.
The other thing that’s made it worse is there’s been quite a few who have retired earlier than anticipated.
If Virgin/Avanti recruited so many drivers from other TOCs rather than training from scratch, did they have a significantly older workforce than others, more likely to be at an age to consider retirement?
 

dk1

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It wasn’t for lack of effort on the TOC side. I spoke to a number of TOC people who were absolutely exasperated that they couldn’t gain agreement to recommence training, based on the same principles as was done at Greater Anglia.
It was a mad world at the time. Worked very well indeed for us & one of the reasons GA has been a shining light what with training & the complete fleet renewal. Quite amazing really that it happened at all when you look at it.
 

87015

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It was a mad world at the time. Worked very well indeed for us & one of the reasons GA has been a shining light what with training & the complete fleet renewal. Quite amazing really that it happened at all when you look at it.
Pretty easy when your 'fleet renewal' means pathetic availability and full time thunderbirds with all the overtime gained from sitting doing nothing by GA terms
 

Efini92

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If Virgin/Avanti recruited so many drivers from other TOCs rather than training from scratch, did they have a significantly older workforce than others, more likely to be at an age to consider retirement?
They had a significantly older workforce to start with. Virgin took all the top link drivers when the franchise was formed. Add in all the drivers that were taken on in the millennium (who were mostly in their 30’s & 40’s) and you end up with lots of staff retiring at the same time.
 

dk1

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Pretty easy when your 'fleet renewal' means pathetic availability and full time thunderbirds with all the overtime gained
Lots of excellent training achieved & yes, it really is great to have so much excess capacity in the fleet now. I’ve never known it in my 38 years of continuos employment. Regardless of cost it really is a great & unique position to be in & long may it continue. No more robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 

87015

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Lots of excellent training achieved & yes, it really is great to have so much excess capacity in the fleet now. I’ve never known it in my 38 years of continuos employment. Regardless of cost it really is a great & unique position to be in & long may it continue. No more robbing Peter to pay Paul.
But robbing Peter is exactly whats happening as the stadler junk can't provide (half) a Stansted service... Your just too selfish to see it as per.
 

dk1

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But robbing Peter is exactly whats happening as the stadler junk can't provide (half) a Stansted service... Your just too selfish to see it as per.
Junk? Check out the ongoing 755 reliability. Such a hit with passengers & enthusiasts alike. 745s have been more problematic & unlucky. Do you have something against the Stadler fleet?

Three Stansted Express services are operating in some hours so a little over half.
 

duncanp

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Just a timetable error. Some trains had to have the schedules resubmitting and ran under a Z headcode. Nothing major.

The same thing has happened today with the 10:10 from Euston to Glasgow Central.

One entry in the Live Train Status page says that the train is cancelled, and another entry says it is running.

Obviously it is too much effort for Avanti to provide accurate information to their customers as to which trains are running and which trains are not running.

Passengers are not interested in excuses like "timetable error".

They would just like Avanti to fulfil their side of the contract that was entered into when they bought a ticket.
 

Snow1964

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They had a significantly older workforce to start with. Virgin took all the top link drivers when the franchise was formed. Add in all the drivers that were taken on in the millennium (who were mostly in their 30’s & 40’s) and you end up with lots of staff retiring at the same time.

But any decent HR manager or personal Director would have the staff age profile so they know how many replacements are needed, and when they need to be trained by, to cover upcoming retirements. There would also be an expectation that x% would voluntarily leave (moving away, changing career, early retirement etc).

I accept that no one can predict a sudden rush for the exit door of choosing to leave / retire, so might be few more short than expected, but to some extent that is why companies have short term bonuses available in their armoury (the sort where someone agrees to stay for few months, to help with transition or change, in exchange for extra £)
 

AndrewE

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I accept that no one can predict a sudden rush for the exit door of choosing to leave / retire, so might be few more short than expected, but to some extent that is why companies have short term bonuses available in their armoury (the sort where someone agrees to stay for few months, to help with transition or change, in exchange for extra £)
Presumably the previously-described "toxic atmosphere" has prompted the rush for the door. I retired early when an obnoxious group head refused to consider me reducing my hours a bit further for a better quality of life.

I was in a job where experience and breadth of knowledge was important and was shared through the team (e.g. by reviewing reports, or advising on strategy) and I had expected to go on making a contribution to well after retirement age. Instead I just walked. The group head tried to delay my departure (I had to point out that I had given notice and there was nothing he could do about it) and refused to believe I wasn't going to another job - I even got subtle contacts via friends after I left trying to find if I really wasn't working.
 

Efini92

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But any decent HR manager or personal Director would have the staff age profile so they know how many replacements are needed, and when they need to be trained by, to cover upcoming retirements. There would also be an expectation that x% would voluntarily leave (moving away, changing career, early retirement etc).

I accept that no one can predict a sudden rush for the exit door of choosing to leave / retire, so might be few more short than expected, but to some extent that is why companies have short term bonuses available in their armoury (the sort where someone agrees to stay for few months, to help with transition or change, in exchange for extra £)
I agree, this is where the franchising system falls down. No one looks beyond the end date.
 

Peter0124

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The same thing has happened today with the 10:10 from Euston to Glasgow Central.

One entry in the Live Train Status page says that the train is cancelled, and another entry says it is running.

Obviously it is too much effort for Avanti to provide accurate information to their customers as to which trains are running and which trains are not running.

Passengers are not interested in excuses like "timetable error".

They would just like Avanti to fulfil their side of the contract that was entered into when they bought a ticket.
It probably had something to do with the fact the headcode was the same as a TPE service that ran just over half an hour before it into Glasgow
 

duncanp

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It probably had something to do with the fact the headcode was the same as a TPE service that ran just over half an hour before it into Glasgow

Eustom live departures has the 10:10 to Glasgow Central train as running, and yet Avanti still have a message on their website saying that the train is cancelled.

You could be forgiven for thinking that Avanti don't give a **** anymore, or that they are deliberately trying to discourage people from travelling.
 

Peter0124

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That's interesting. How would that come about ?
Basically 99% of the Avanti headcodes in this timetable had their number decreased by one. Eg 1S52 the 10:10 ex Euston became 1S51. There was already a TPE service 1S51 which arrives into Glasgow at 1439. Similar headcode clashes happened with the 07:10, and 16:10 also.
 

LYuen

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I massively bow to your knowledge on this stuff Clarence Yard but a bit of friendly challenge on that one.

I think this is to do with LNER being an OLR for 2 reasons:

1. An accident of timing - because it means LNER avoided the switchover of contracting at a critical moment which included that classic problem with the whole contracting method where Virgin were not heavily penalised for not having enough drivers when their time came to an end/Avanti were not put under enough scrutiny in terms of how many drivers they took on.

2. Because LNER has been left to its own devices more because it is being viewed as a more competent management team.

However, if you are right, this really is damning for the DfT and Treasury. There is no way the finances at Avanti are looking better than those at LNER, and the contradiction in their public carping about wanting modernised working practices mixed with their actually contracting the opposite is too much to stomach.

I really hope people who voted for this Government think their blessed Brexit has been worth it, they really are seriously incompetent and just not serious people, at a very serious time.
As an outsider I feel like after Northern had become an OLR it had improved a lot too. Much more reliable than both TPE and AWC.
I think AWC and TPE are illustrating the worst case scenario under the proposed GBR.
 

Virgin_Driver

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But any decent HR manager or personal Director would have the staff age profile so they know how many replacements are needed, and when they need to be trained by, to cover upcoming retirements. There would also be an expectation that x% would voluntarily leave (moving away, changing career, early retirement etc).

I accept that no one can predict a sudden rush for the exit door of choosing to leave / retire, so might be few more short than expected, but to some extent that is why companies have short term bonuses available in their armoury (the sort where someone agrees to stay for few months, to help with transition or change, in exchange for extra £)
No “decent” HR manager or personnel director can have foreseen the number of drivers who have just simply had enough. Enough of getting up at 2 and 3 am one week and getting into bed at midnight, 1 or 2 or 3 am the next. Enough of the politics between government, management and the union, enough of being treated like **** by management, rising inflation, no pay rise for three years and much much more.

How do I know this ? Because I’m one of those drivers, I gave my six months notice and finished in March after thirty seven years service aged fifty five. Never have I ever been so glad to get out of a place, sad because I loved driving trains and had done so since age 21. In the space of two and a half years First Group have taken what was, under VT, a happy work force who would bend over backwards to keep the service running and cancellations were a rarity and driven it and everyone into the ground, imposing changes and totally ignoring the machinery of negotiation with the union’s.

The management freely admit they need drivers to work their rostered days off just to run over four hundred services each and every week.
Now drivers not wanting to work their rostered days off is why the service has been in disarray.

There are plenty more working through their notice period and a lot more considering their options.
 

bramling

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Because the timetable was presumably written in a hurry by an under pressure train planning team and a simple mistake was made. I’m sure it will be corrected.

One wonders if the whole thing will come to a head with some kind of safety-related incident, perhaps as a result of something like this, or perhaps controls being overworked.

Accidents can happen as a result of the strangest small little detail setting off a chain of events, and this constant messing around over timetabling and crewing could well set the scene for something. It’s all a rather sad state or affairs.
 
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