Avanti West Coast cancellations

[londonmidland]

I believe Manchester Pride is taking place over the weekend so it'll be interesting to see how services cope with the reduced timetable.

 

[Sheridan]

I believe Manchester Pride is taking place over the weekend so it'll be interesting to see how services cope with the reduced timetable.

Is that a large driver of traffic? I would imagine most of the people making their way into Manchester for the event do so on Northern, TPE and EMR, although no doubt there are some from Stoke, Macclesfield etc.

 

[FManc]

Is that a large driver of traffic? I would imagine most of the people making their way into Manchester for the event do so on Northern, TPE and EMR, although no doubt there are some from Stoke, Macclesfield etc.

It certainly is a massive driver of traffic from further afield. You normally have a lot of people travelling up from London for it.

 

[dk1]

It certainly is a massive driver of traffic from further afield. You normally have a lot of people travelling up from London for it.

Distance is no longer an issue. If they get a decent advance price they’ll travel to the ends of the earth if they feel strongly enough about something.

 

[greeny11]

We had quite a few travelling to Creamfields on my train from Edinburgh to Wigan yesterday, and their behaviour was atrocious. I'm assuming Liverpool (or Manchester) trains will have catered for that event as well. Also, I'm assuming the Edinburgh festival season has led to packed trains on that route too - certainly was my experience this week. Both my train up to Edinburgh and back were full and standing for the majority of the journey (that I was on) - reservations were cancelled throughout. The outbound train was a 9-car, which still seems a ridiculous decision to me, given this is the busiest month of the year for Edinburgh.

 

[DannyMich2018]

It certainly is a massive driver of traffic from further afield. You normally have a lot of people travelling up from London for it.

Man City are also at home today against Crystal Palace so adding to the crowds.

 

[Huntergreed]

The Anglo-Scot’s are quite bad today:

06:52 Edinburgh - Euston Cancelled
07:37 Glasgow - Euston Cancelled
08:10 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
13:35 Glasgow - Euston cancelled
14:18 Euston - Edinburgh cancelled
16:01 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
17:13 Euston - Preston cancelled

Surely this can’t all be because of staff shortages? We’re already on a hugely reduced timetable!

 

[voyagerdude220]

The outbound train was a 9-car, which still seems a ridiculous decision to me, given this is the busiest month of the year for Edinburgh.

Apologies for my repetition, but I'm sure Avanti has some sort of obsession with allocating 9 car sets on London to Scotland (and vice versa) workings.

A few days ago I noticed that the 14:10 Euston to Glasgow (the last off peak fast Trent Valley service) was a 9 car. Goodness knows how busy that would have been.

A few weeks ago I observed a very heavily loaded 9-car on the 16:30 Euston to Glasgow, the Train Manager had to squeeze into the train as she closed her door, with the vestibule by coach C packed with people. All of Standard Class was overcrowded, Standard Premium and even First Class appeared to be fully occupied.

 

[Meyrick]

Apologies for my repetition, but I'm sure Avanti has some sort of obsession with allocating 9 car sets on London to Scotland (and vice versa) workings.

A few days ago I noticed that the 14:10 Euston to Glasgow (the last off peak fast Trent Valley service) was a 9 car. Goodness knows how busy that would have been.

A few weeks ago I observed a very heavily loaded 9-car on the 16:30 Euston to Glasgow, the Train Manager had to squeeze into the train as she closed her door, with the vestibule by coach C packed with people. All of Standard Class was overcrowded, Standard Premium and even First Class appeared to be fully occupied.

I can assure you they don't.

It's worth noting that Polmadie do heavy maintenance that other depots don't so cycling the fleet is essential.

Avanti work on an 11-car priority list which Alstom and control work together on to try and fulfil. It's based mostly on reservations but also large events. If a train is cancelled, the next should be 11 car if possible.

 

[43066]

The Anglo-Scot’s are quite bad today:

06:52 Edinburgh - Euston Cancelled
07:37 Glasgow - Euston Cancelled
08:10 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
13:35 Glasgow - Euston cancelled
14:18 Euston - Edinburgh cancelled
16:01 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
17:13 Euston - Preston cancelled

Surely this can’t all be because of staff shortages? We’re already on a hugely reduced timetable!

I can well believe it is.

We had driver overtime available during the RMT strikes. That gives you some idea of how reliant the whole thing is on RDW.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I can assure you they don't.

I'm aware Avanti have the priority system. You make a good point about Polmadie doing heavy maintenance which I forgot about, but there have been times like a few Sundays ago when the first few London to Glasgow workings which wouldn't have finished the day at Polmadie were all 9 car sets (whilst other workings at Euston going to Birmingham/Manchester etc within a few minutes of the Glasgow leaving were 11 cars).

 

[Meyrick]

I'm aware Avanti have the priority system. You make a good point about Polmadie doing heavy maintenance which I forgot about, but there have been times like a few Sundays ago when the first few London to Glasgow workings which wouldn't have finished the day at Polmadie were all 9 car sets (whilst other workings at Euston going to Birmingham/Manchester etc within a few minutes of the Glasgow leaving were 11 cars).

Yeah Polmadie are HVAC God's! lol

I'm looking forward to the December TT, need my direct trains to Nuneaton back!

 

[peter166]

Avanti work on an 11-car priority list which Alstom and control work together on to try and fulfil. It's based mostly on reservations but also large events. If a train is cancelled, the next should be 11 car if possible.

From monitoring this over recent weeks, particulatly on the Liverpool & Glasgow routes, I would suggest that more often than not the train following a cancellation is not an 11 car unit. It seems to be entirely pot luck and very often even after 2, 3 or even 4 cancellations in a row during July & early August the next train would be 9 car.

 

[Zontar]

I can well believe it is.

We had driver overtime available during the RMT strikes. That gives you some idea of how reliant the whole thing is on RDW.

Jeez. That's bad. Can I ask a potentially stupid question......why aren't they recruiting?

 

[43066]

Jeez. That's bad. Can I ask a potentially stupid question......why aren't they recruiting?

They are regularly! It’s the usual story of capacity being limited due to instructor availability etc. Also not geared up for huge numbers of off the street trainees in the way a lot of TOCs in the south east are.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They are regularly! It’s the usual story of capacity being limited due to instructor availability etc. Also not geared up for huge numbers of off the street trainees in the way a lot of TOCs in the south east are.

This is an unfortunate fact that can't be quickly remedied I suspect but im staggered with the scale of RDW and overtime that must be required for AWC to run their planned service such that they would act in such a cavalier fashion to upset their most critical resource but then they will still get their costs covered and receive the management fee so they don't have to worry.

I can assure you they don't.

It's worth noting that Polmadie do heavy maintenance that other depots don't so cycling the fleet is essential.

Avanti work on an 11-car priority list which Alstom and control work together on to try and fulfil. It's based mostly on reservations but also large events. If a train is cancelled, the next should be 11 car if possible.

Currently every 11 car should be diagrammed first and the refurb programme should be switched to the 9 cars.

 

[AndrewE]

They are regularly! It’s the usual story of capacity being limited due to instructor availability etc. Also not geared up for huge numbers of off the street trainees in the way a lot of TOCs in the south east are.

Could AWC outsource any of the training to companies with spare capacity? Take advantage of places "geared up for huge numbers of off the street trainees in the way a lot of TOCs in the south east are" for non route- or traction-specific training?

 

[Zontar]

They are regularly! It’s the usual story of capacity being limited due to instructor availability etc. Also not geared up for huge numbers of off the street trainees in the way a lot of TOCs in the south east are.

There's a thread on here about recruitment at Liverpool.....no one heard a thing since January!

 

[irish_rail]

I think they'd sooner recruit internal trainees these days than qualified. Trouble is you keep taking away train managers making them drivers and inevitably causes a knock on effect with lack of TMs.....

Also wonder of they are struggling to get qualified and therefore gave up with this route as with so much uncertainty over what HS2 would do to your job I imagine this must be off putting to younger potential recruits. Not to mention the way AWC are taking away route knowledge at depots like Liverpool and Manchester (Holyhead, variety etc out the window, just drive to London every single day), and they have perhaps been forced down the trainee driver road?

 

[Efini92]

We had quite a few travelling to Creamfields on my train from Edinburgh to Wigan yesterday, and their behaviour was atrocious. I'm assuming Liverpool (or Manchester) trains will have catered for that event as well. Also, I'm assuming the Edinburgh festival season has led to packed trains on that route too - certainly was my experience this week. Both my train up to Edinburgh and back were full and standing for the majority of the journey (that I was on) - reservations were cancelled throughout. The outbound train was a 9-car, which still seems a ridiculous decision to me, given this is the busiest month of the year for Edinburgh.

Was that the 0919 off Preston? I couldn’t believe how many bin bags full of empty cans the cleaners were having to shift.

 

[jayah]

The RMT are a wealthy union, partly as a result of their extensive investment portfolio. They have done very well playing the capitalist markets!

Unite have 1.4 million members. Something like 1,800 (that's 0.1%) were involved. The daily strike pay came to a figure in the order £3m.

Rather different to the RMT who would face strike pay for most of their members!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==

I think they'd sooner recruit internal trainees these days than qualified. Trouble is you keep taking away train managers making them drivers and inevitably causes a knock on effect with lack of TMs.....

Also wonder of they are struggling to get qualified and therefore gave up with this route as with so much uncertainty over what HS2 would do to your job I imagine this must be off putting to younger potential recruits. Not to mention the way AWC are taking away route knowledge at depots like Liverpool and Manchester (Holyhead, variety etc out the window, just drive to London every single day), and they have perhaps been forced down the trainee driver road?

That is the way it should be, otherwise you end up like the NHS with 250,000 nurses virtually none of whom will ever become doctors and 350,000 healthcare assistants often doing functions designated as nursing.

Imagine telling a Train Manager they needed to take 2yrs out from getting paid to qualify as a driver, or someone in Catering to become a Train Manager.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==

The problem is nobody wins elections by pledging to raise taxes to pay for public services. Instead the public are bribed with tax cuts and then complain when nothing works.

Nobody wants to pay taxes, but they would pay for a service. There must be something in that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Anglo-Scot’s are quite bad today:

06:52 Edinburgh - Euston Cancelled
07:37 Glasgow - Euston Cancelled
08:10 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
13:35 Glasgow - Euston cancelled
14:18 Euston - Edinburgh cancelled
16:01 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
17:13 Euston - Preston cancelled

Surely this can’t all be because of staff shortages? We’re already on a hugely reduced timetable!

What is in the system isn't necessary what is running. I am on the 0933 ex MKC (0840 ex Euston) which nothing bar the planner-less LNR TVMs would sell me a ticket for - Trainsplit thought cancelled, LNR just didn't list it at all. It seems to be in as VSTP, I'm not sure why this is but I suspect there has been a fairly chunky planning error.

 

[Goldfish62]

Unite have 1.4 million members. Something like 1,800 (that's 0.1%) were involved. The daily strike pay came to a figure in the order £3m.

Not wishing to go OT, but Unite is about more than the railways. Their members are involved in multiple disputes and all get £70 a day strike pay.

 

[jfollows]

Also looks like late running engineering work in the Stafford area this morning, some trains diverted via Alsager to avoid this.

 

[43066]

That is the way it should be, otherwise you end up like the NHS with 250,000 nurses virtually none of whom will ever become doctors and 350,000 healthcare assistants often doing functions designated as nursing.

That’s because they’re entirely separate jobs and career paths rather than lines of promotion. This has been pointed out to you many times before. In the same way as nurses don’t get promoted to become doctors, guards don’t automatically get promoted to become train drivers.

You probably imagine airline pilots start out as cabin crew (they don’t)…

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s because they’re entirely separate jobs and career paths rather than lines of promotion.

In the same way as nurses don’t get promoted to become doctors, guards don’t get promoted to become drivers.

Do you imagine airline pilots start out as cabin crew (they don’t)?

In traditional industries that is exactly what would happen - think fireman to driver, for instance. It also happens in IT, curiously - techie to manager is very common indeed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2022 ==

Also looks like late running engineering work in the Stafford area this morning, some trains diverted via Alsager to avoid this.

Ah, that could explain the VSTPing and "cancellations".

Edit: Yep, we are going via Alsager.

 

[43066]

In traditional industries that is exactly what would happen - think fireman to driver, for instance. It also happens in IT, curiously - techie to manager is very common indeed

On the “traditional” railway it went engine cleaner - passed cleaner - fireman - passed fireman - driver. Guard has always been a separate path. Obviously these days guards can and do apply for driver roles but often get passed over in favour of either new trainees or qualified drivers from elsewhere because then there’s no position to be backfilled.

 

[LowLevel]

Points run through by an engineeing train at Stafford Trent Valley No1 Junction.

 

[uww11x]

The Anglo-Scot’s are quite bad today:

06:52 Edinburgh - Euston Cancelled
07:37 Glasgow - Euston Cancelled
08:10 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
13:35 Glasgow - Euston cancelled
14:18 Euston - Edinburgh cancelled
16:01 Euston - Glasgow cancelled
17:13 Euston - Preston cancelled

Surely this can’t all be because of staff shortages? We’re already on a hugely reduced timetable!

I can believe it. If you are already short on the required complement of staff. Annual Leave and sickness is going to effect it more. Then you are hoping the actual service runs to time. Any decent delays will impact train crew workings the next day etc. All part of the rostering jigsaw.

 

[jayah]

That’s because they’re entirely separate jobs and career paths rather than lines of promotion. This has been pointed out to you many times before. In the same way as nurses don’t get promoted to become doctors, guards don’t automatically get promoted to become train drivers.

You probably imagine airline pilots start out as cabin crew (they don’t)…

Nobody argued it should be automatic.

If you look at how many guards become drivers compared to nurses becoming doctors, perhaps you can see the problem?