Avanti West Coast contract extended for six months

[DynamicSpirit]

Any industry which provides a 24/7 service, then relies on its workforce to work overtime to provide that service, is really asking for trouble somewhere down the line (no pun intended).

Is that actually Avanti's fault that overtime was being relied on so heavily, or is that something that they inherited from Virgin, and, with all the disruption from Covid hindering their first couple of years, wouldn't have been possible to change in the time that's been available so far?

 

[Efini92]

Is that actually Avanti's fault that overtime was being relied on so heavily, or is that something that they inherited from Virgin, and, with all the disruption from Covid hindering their first couple of years, wouldn't have been possible to change in the time that's been available so far?

Virgin should have started recruiting a lot more towards the end of the franchise.
Covid slowed things down but even if it hadn’t happened, I doubt recruitment would’ve kept up with the sheer volume of people retiring.

 

[357]

Is that actually Avanti's fault that overtime was being relied on so heavily, or is that something that they inherited from Virgin, and, with all the disruption from Covid hindering their first couple of years, wouldn't have been possible to change in the time that's been available so far?

Virgin should have started recruiting a lot more towards the end of the franchise.
Covid slowed things down but even if it hadn’t happened, I doubt recruitment would’ve kept up with the sheer volume of people retiring.

Before someone comes along and says that there's no way VIrgin would hire so close to the end of the franchise, it can happen and it has happened.

I started working for National Express East Anglia less six months before the end of their franchise. They had been instructed by the government of the time that they needed to fill vacancies and have people productive in the posts prior to the changeover.

Of course, it's on the government that they haven't done that since, including in this case.

 

[jagardner1984]

Interestingly I remember reading exactly the same point in relation to Scotrail - that essentially the franchise couldn’t be handed over with vacancies - so there was a massive recruitment drive in literally the last few weeks of First’s franchise, of staff who would never actually work for First.

However, in some degree of fairness, any rostering system is a careful balance of Staff, Vacancies, Holidays, Rest Day Working, Sickness.

To keep it going relies on a delicate balance of all of the above, if you are not to have a dozen spares sitting around each day. Avanti quickly discovered how rapidly things become unstuck when one or more shifts from the expected pattern.

 

[irish_rail]

I can't say I'm surprised at the news to be honest. Aside from a series of improvements already made, the problems facing Avanti are mostly systematic, and so changing management won't immediately bring about changes. As we've seen on the forums themselves, Avanti have attempted to recruit more drivers to bring back services, which cannot be said for TransPennine Express since I haven't even seen a smidge of recruitment efforts from them, therefore I'll be astounded if they don't get their contract terminated. I know I said the problems are systematic, but management still has a role in these series of absolute shambles.

Eh? TPE are constantly recruiting for qualified drivers, especially at Lime st and York. The advert has been up more or less none stop the past year or so. Just becuaese TPE aren't going down the trainee route doesn't mean they are not recruiting drivers. I suspect TPEs problem is actually persuading qualified drivers to come due to the very limited route knowledge and constant disruption. Avanti on the other hand have gone down the slow trainee route , rarely recruiting qualifieds (except for certain less popular depots) and as a result it will be years before things recover fully due to the amount of time it takes to train up an "apprentice driver".

 

[dk1]

Before someone comes along and says that there's no way VIrgin would hire so close to the end of the franchise, it can happen and it has happened.

I started working for National Express East Anglia less six months before the end of their franchise. They had been instructed by the government of the time that they needed to fill vacancies and have people productive in the posts prior to the changeover.

Of course, it's on the government that they haven't done that since, including in this case.

Yes exactly that. It should have made no difference that a franchise was coming to an end. Recruitment for traincrew continues regardless.

 

[357]

Eh? TPE are constantly recruiting for qualified drivers, especially at Lime st and York. The advert has been up more or less none stop the past year or so. Just becuaese TPE aren't going down the trainee route doesn't mean they are not recruiting drivers. I suspect TPEs problem is actually persuading qualified drivers to come due to the very limited route knowledge and constant disruption. Avanti on the other hand have gone down the slow trainee route , rarely recruiting qualifieds (except for certain less popular depots) and as a result it will be years before things recover fully due to the amount of time it takes to train up an "apprentice driver".

I thought about TPE but found their recruitment process a pain in the arse. (I'm qualified).

They wanted me to sit the psychometric tests again. OK, no problem.

Couldn't do either of the days they suggested for the tests. They said no problem and invited me for interview anyway.

After traveling the length of the country and booking a hotel for the interview, they rejected me after the interview because I hadn't done their tests.

Absolute joke.

 

[43066]

Is that actually Avanti's fault that overtime was being relied on so heavily, or is that something that they inherited from Virgin, and, with all the disruption from Covid hindering their first couple of years, wouldn't have been possible to change in the time that's been available so far?

Heavy reliance on overtime is railway-wide, really.

Avanti on the other hand have gone down the slow trainee route , rarely recruiting qualifieds (except for certain less popular depots) and as a result it will be years before things recover fully due to the amount of time it takes to train up an "apprentice driver".

Avanti have been recruiting pretty solidly for qualifieds, the problem was persuading them to stay - several last year joined and promptly returned to their old operators. They also have drivers leaving for lower paid TOCs which shows how bad things have got.

 

[irish_rail]

Avanti have been recruiting pretty solidly for qualifieds, the problem was persuading them to stay - several last year joined and promptly returned to their old operators. They also have drivers leaving for lower paid TOCs which shows how bad things have got.

Theyve advertised once in past 12 months and then only for Euston Wolves Manchester and Holyhead. No sign of Liverpool Preston or Scotland. Those depots it seems must wait for the apprentices to slowly trickle through in next couple of years. Rather unfair on any qualifieds wanting to relocate north to somewhere other than Northern rail! Qualified drivers really don't have the choices they used to when it comes to moving around, I'm just glad that I'm at a good depot, but feel for those who wish to or need to relocate .

 

[Krokodil]

Rather unfair on any qualifieds wanting to relocate north to somewhere other than Northern rail!

TfW are occasionally advertising so if they're living in Liverpool Chester or Crewe are commutable. FOCs are poaching plenty of drivers from Northern and TPE.

 

[Sorcerer]

Eh? TPE are constantly recruiting for qualified drivers, especially at Lime st and York. The advert has been up more or less none stop the past year or so. Just becuaese TPE aren't going down the trainee route doesn't mean they are not recruiting drivers. I suspect TPEs problem is actually persuading qualified drivers to come due to the very limited route knowledge and constant disruption. Avanti on the other hand have gone down the slow trainee route , rarely recruiting qualifieds (except for certain less popular depots) and as a result it will be years before things recover fully due to the amount of time it takes to train up an "apprentice driver".

While they have recruited qualified drivers, they are not constant, and it is demonstrably not enough seeing as TPE still faces problems whereas Avanti have been doing active recruitment. You say it's a slow route to recruit trainees, but for people who want to get on the railway as train drivers it will be easier than trying to convince qualified drivers to change TOCs when some have already left. Furthermore, recruiting trainees will give access to a wider pool of potential younger candidates that will be around longer than qualified drivers. Whatever way you look it at, TransPennine Express hasn't done enough.

 

[357]

While they have recruited qualified drivers, they are not constant, and it is demonstrably not enough seeing as TPE still faces problems whereas Avanti have been doing active recruitment. You say it's a slow route to recruit trainees, but for people who want to get on the railway as train drivers it will be easier than trying to convince qualified drivers to change TOCs when some have already left. Furthermore, recruiting trainees will give access to a wider pool of potential younger candidates that will be around longer than qualified drivers. Whatever way you look it at, TransPennine Express hasn't done enough.

Generally in my experience trainees have been recruited for long term stuff and qualified drivers have been hired when companies need productive drivers quickly.

The TOCs with massive shortages should have been doing both at the same time!

 

[Krokodil]

Whatever way you look it at, TransPennine Express hasn't done enough.

TPE has a retention problem. It's losing drivers to other TOCs/FOCs/retirement as fast as it can train replacements.

 

[Sorcerer]

So if Avanti and TPE have a retention problem the common denominator here is FirstGroup management surely? I understand much of their issues are systematic with rest day working and lack of staff, but if morale is so bad that they can't even retain qualified drivers then that raises the question as to whether or not a change of management would've actually made things better? I know it won't automatically bring more drivers and staff available for working, but I do not recall Virgin having such issues with staff retention unless of course it was well-hidden, so while most of the problems wouldn't go away with a new operator, would it really be as bad as FirstGroup running things?

 

[Clarence Yard]

FirstGroup doesn’t manage it’s TOCs in the way you think it does - it doesn’t even have an Ops Director or Ops department at HQ level. There is no common way of “managing” the Ops function at their TOCs.

The similarity is that the DfT is not letting the respective managements do what they would have done in the past. This means what used to be good places to work are not so attractive now. The current IR position isn’t helping either.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So if Avanti and TPE have a retention problem the common denominator here is FirstGroup management surely?

I think you fundamentally misunderstand how owning groups operating as @Clarence Yard outlines. There isn’t a centrally managed Ops function in them.

As for First Group I don’t believe there are retention issues at GWR or HT so not sure your point about common denominator applies.

 

[Krokodil]

So if Avanti and TPE have a retention problem the common denominator here is FirstGroup management surely?

So how do you explain why Northern also has a retention problem?

The common denominator remains the DfT.

 

[Sorcerer]

I accept the points made here. If the DfT are the common denominator here then you wonder why they even think about giving control to private operators since they seem to have a problem with micromanaging. In either case I am interested to see how things with TPE will go come to the end of their contract.

 

[uww11x]

Theyve advertised once in past 12 months and then only for Euston Wolves Manchester and Holyhead. No sign of Liverpool Preston or Scotland. Those depots it seems must wait for the apprentices to slowly trickle through in next couple of years. Rather unfair on any qualifieds wanting to relocate north to somewhere other than Northern rail! Qualified drivers really don't have the choices they used to when it comes to moving around, I'm just glad that I'm at a good depot, but feel for those who wish to or need to relocate .

You can walk into any FOC around the Carlisle area if you are already qualified. Colas, DB and GB have active adverts for such positions. Freightliner did at the end of 2022 and DRS always interested in transfers

 

[VauxhallNova]

You do realise that rest day working is a personal preference?

At my TOC there appears to be a new Rest Day Working deal imminent that is seen by management to sort out all our performance problems. But as I've not worked a Rest Day since December 2021, I'm not in any rush to work them now. A fair number of my colleagues are of the same opinion. When we have been publicly named and shamed by company management and government, our salaries paraded around in public, attempts at slicing up our T&Cs just to pay for our own payrise, then you will realise we don't need a Union to tell us what to do.

Implying ASLEF have done a deal (on pay and RDW) with DfT, that keeps FirstGroup in place... Let's see!

 

[fabs]

Not going to offer an opinion on where I think the main fault IR wise at TPE lies. It’s worth mentioning that at York the qualified advert has been constantly running for over 12 months.

27 trainees at York depot with more to come, but it’s too much for the system to cope with.

Drivers are leaving but if you look at who they’re going to the main factors seem to be retirement and career progression. With a couple of mega freight wage packets thrown in. Apart from maybe 1 driver not many are going to similar TOCs.

For what it’s worth, TPEs driver shortage is mainly due to continuing with this mad expansion while still not caught up on legacy training.

FG could stay or go those problems aren’t going to go away. If I were an ASLEF rep I wouldn’t be pushing FG out the door so quickly. Senior Management have been giving into them on pretty much every item for years now. Better the devil you know.

Whatever the issue is, it is definitely not ‘they aren’t trying to recruit drivers’.

 

[Krokodil]

27 trainees at York depot with more to come, but it’s too much for the system to cope with.

If your most experienced drivers are deciding to retire/move elsewhere than continue with TPE then that will include a great number of instructors.

 

[Mwanesh]

Can't they just do rosters that fit everyone. Surely in this age there should be various ways of making everyone happy

 

[43066]

Can't they just do rosters that fit everyone. Surely in this age there should be various ways of making everyone happy

In a word, no.

 

[bramling]

Can't they just do rosters that fit everyone. Surely in this age there should be various ways of making everyone happy

Very difficult to achieve in practice unfortunately, as there tends to be a preference for certain shifts and a general dispreference for others. Reconciling that in a way which meets all the other various needs is extremely difficult.

 

[Snow1964]

Can't they just do rosters that fit everyone. Surely in this age there should be various ways of making everyone happy

Doesn't totally work, but can try and apply a best fit of requirements vs preferences. However in reality got to try and share out the less popular shifts to provide a degree of fairness.

 

[357]

Doesn't totally work, but can try and apply a best fit of requirements vs preferences. However in reality got to try and share out the less popular shifts to provide a degree of fairness.

Until the same old faces find reasons to go restricted so they can't work before 6am or after 9pm !

 

[Backroom_boy]

What happens after 6 months? Isn't this just kicking the can down the road?

 

[Clarence Yard]

They look to see if the improvement has been sustained and, if it has, Avanti will get an NRC.

 

[Energy]

Whittingham was incendiary and fractured management staff relationships.

Worth noting that he came from the finance side of Virgin Trains before becoming the MD for them post 2013. He now works for a consultancy.