Avanti West Coast services calling at Northampton (Post HS2)

[Hb06_]

Is there any chance after HS2, Avanti West Coast could run a more frequent service on the Northampton Loop, calling at Northampton? Currently they only run Southbound services early in the morning and late in the evening on occasions.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Is there any chance after HS2, Avanti West Coast could run a more frequent service on the Northampton Loop, calling at Northampton? Currently they only run Southbound services early in the morning and late in the evening on occasions.

I don't think they will as their trains are express services and through Northampton station is only 20mph and the limit doesn't increase for quite some time, so LNWR services will be faster due to superior acceleration, certainly the ones that don't stop at Wolverton, which sort of eliminates the point of Avanti stopping there as they will be slower than their so called slower competition.

Also for one who wants to go there anyway? Especially on an InterCity express service?

I think Avanti stopping there at all is daft. They must agree with me by only running a minimal service there.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There have been lots of proposals for the post-HS2 WCML service. I think with demand likely to shift we will need to wait to see how those proposals develop into a concrete plan - it's a few years yet!

 

[Hb06_]

Also for one who wants to go there anyway? Especially on an InterCity express service?

But most people want to get out as far as possible from Northampton, and LNWR don't operate any services to Southern Scotland e.g Edinburgh, Glasgow.

 

[221101 Voyager]

There have been lots of proposals for the post-HS2 WCML service. I think with demand likely to shift we will need to wait to see how those proposals develop into a concrete plan - it's a few years yet!

A few years! You mean about 9! Opening date has been pushed back yet again!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But most people want to get out as far as possible from Northampton, and LNWR don't operate any services to Southern Scotland e.g Edinburgh, Glasgow.

There's a fair bit of business in Northampton, to be fair. It's not quite MK, but it's fairly established. Also there is a good theatre there.

Otherwise I would indeed not really recommend a visit. It took me 18 years from moving to MK to actually visit the town centre, and when I did I quickly decided it hadn't been worth it

 

[221101 Voyager]

But most people want to get out as far as possible from Northampton, and LNWR don't operate any services to Southern Scotland e.g Edinburgh, Glasgow.

Yeah but people can change trains at Rugby, Coventry or MKC.

 

[Hb06_]

Yeah but people can change trains.

You have a point, but it would be more convenient to get a direct service.

 

[221101 Voyager]

You have a point, but it would be more convenient to get a direct service.

You could say that for a lot of places, but it doesn't mean it is feasible or possible at all or even necessary.

 

[Hb06_]

There's a fair bit of business in Northampton, to be fair. It's not quite MK, but it's fairly established. Also there is a good theatre there.

Otherwise I would indeed not really recommend a visit. It took me 18 years from moving to MK to actually visit the town centre, and when I did I quickly decided it hadn't been worth it

For someone who lives a 10 minute drive from Northampton, I'm not a massive fan (the high street is slowing dying, and just a few days ago)

You could say that for a lot of places, but it doesn't mean it is feasible or possible at all or even necessary.

You could say Northampton is a city, and hasn't even got a proper Intercity service though

 

[221101 Voyager]

For someone who lives a 10 minute drive from Northampton, I'm not a massive fan (the high street is slowing dying, and just a few days ago)



You could say Northampton is a city, and hasn't even got a proper Intercity service though

I found this and it is definitely not a city, stop trying to polish a turd!

'' Northampton is the county town of Northamptonshire and is one of the largest settlements in the UK not classed as a city. ''

 

[The Planner]

No concrete train service specifications yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if Northampton got some extras post HS2.

 

[221101 Voyager]

No concrete train service specifications yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if Northampton got some extras post HS2.

I don't see why Northampton needs an InterCity service, is the demand there? After all, Northampton is such a dump I don't think people there could afford the overpriced InterCity fares anyway.

 

[CW2]

It's a fair proposal. I wouldn't encourage the idea of a through Pendolino from Northampton to Scotland though, as post-HS2 the northern end of the route is likely to be pretty full of HS2 services.
Just as the introduction of HSTs onto the principal ECML services in the 1980s saw the relegation of the Deltics onto Kings Cross - York semi-fast services, so might we see Pendolinos operating semi-fast services out of Euston.
I'd favour an hourly Euston - Blackpool North, calling Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV, Stafford, Crewe (interchange for HS2), Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton le Fylde, and Blackpool North.
If Crewe to Chester is wired by then, the service could go on alternate hours to Chester / Blackpool North (unless Chester gets served by HS2).

 

[221101 Voyager]

It's a fair proposal. I wouldn't encourage the idea of a through Pendolino from Northampton to Scotland though, as post-HS2 the northern end of the route is likely to be pretty full of HS2 services.
Just as the introduction of HSTs onto the principal ECML services in the 1980s saw the relegation of the Deltics onto Kings Cross - York semi-fast services, so might we see Pendolinos operating semi-fast services out of Euston.
I'd favour an hourly Euston - Blackpool North, calling Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV, Stafford, Crewe (interchange for HS2), Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton le Fylde, and Blackpool North.
If Crewe to Chester is wired by then, the service could go on alternate hours to Chester / Blackpool North (unless Chester gets served by HS2).

A 390 stopping as often as that isn't great as the acceleration is quite poor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why Northampton needs an InterCity service, is the demand there? After all, Northampton is such a dump I don't think people there could afford the overpriced InterCity fares anyway.

I agree it's not a great place, but there's plenty of business there so I don't think it's a poor place.

 

[The Planner]

I don't see why Northampton needs an InterCity service, is the demand there? After all, Northampton is such a dump I don't think people there could afford the overpriced InterCity fares anyway.

Ranked 165 in station usage in the UK, with 3.3million in 2018-19, it isn't insignificant.

A 390 stopping as often as that isn't great as the acceleration is quite poor.

What do you think is going to happen on the WCML once HS2 opens? 390s will be stopping a lot more often.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Ranked 165 in station usage in the UK, with 3.3million in 2018-19, it isn't insignificant.

I could say that MKC doesn't have a proper IC service, as to/from Liverpool Avanti services never stop there. So the scousers will need to change to go to MKC. MKC has around 7 million people yet even then they don't have a perfect IC service.

The same goes for services to/from Glasgow as they don't really stop at MKC usually.

 

[The Planner]

I could say that MKC doesn't have a proper IC service, as to/from Liverpool Avanti services never stop there. So the scousers will need to change to go to MKC. MKC has around 7 million people yet even then they don't have a perfect IC service.

So what is perfect? No one has a perfect service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Population of MK is between 250,000 and 300,000 (growing all the time so a precise figure is difficult). I don't know where 7 million came from!

 

[221101 Voyager]

Population of MK is between 250,000 and 300,000 (growing all the time so a precise figure is difficult). I don't know where 7 million came from!

I meant 7 million passengers used it! Not population, as I would've said MKC has a population of...

 

[CW2]

I could say that MKC doesn't have a proper IC service, as to/from Liverpool Avanti services never stop there. So the scousers will need to change to go to MKC. MKC has around 7 million people yet even then they don't have a perfect IC service.

The problem with MK is that the vast majority of its traffic is commuting to / from London (or at least it was until this year ...)
You don't want your premium peak-hour services stopping at MK to get overwhelmed with standing commuters, and causing longer journey times for those paying higher fares to travel from Liverpool, Manchester, West Midlands etc.
That will be solved by HS2.

MK currently gets hourly IC services to:
Stoke / Stockport /Manchester
Coventry / International / New St / Sandwell / Wolves / Crewe / Warrington / Wigan / Preston and on to Scotland or Blackpool
and pre-COVID it was also served by the hourly xx:10 Euston - Chester / North Wales service.
In addition there are the various LM fast services.
All in all I think it gets a pretty good level of service - and one which many other locations would envy.

 

[221101 Voyager]

The problem with MK is that the vast majority of its traffic is commuting to / from London (or at least it was until this year ...)
You don't want your premium peak-hour services stopping at MK to get overwhelmed with standing commuters, and causing longer journey times for those paying higher fares to travel from Liverpool, Manchester, West Midlands etc.
That will be solved by HS2.

MK currently gets hourly IC services to:
Stoke / Stockport /Manchester
Coventry / International / New St / Sandwell / Wolves / Crewe / Warrington / Wigan / Preston and on to Scotland or Blackpool
and pre-COVID it was also served by the hourly xx:10 Euston - Chester / North Wales service.
In addition there are the various LM fast services.
All in all I think it gets a pretty good level of service - and one which many other locations would envy.

Yes, true I suppose.

 

[Purple Orange]

By the time HS2 is open, how long will the Pendolinos be with us? They will be knocking on for 30 years old and the type of service being operated on the WCML might be more suited to 8-car trains with doors at 1/3 and 2/3. I feel that the LNW model will be the one that prevails, with services no further north than an hourly Manchester/Chester/Liverpool and crucially kept apart from HS2 trains on the north WCML.

 

[SargeNpton]

The population of Northampton is around 220,000. Add in the increasing number of students for the University, which has been growing in size over the last ten years.

The current limited Avanti services are only basically there to keep up the route knowledge of the drivers for when the loop is used as an engineering work diversion.

 

[221101 Voyager]

The population of Northampton is around 220,000. Add in the increasing number of students for the University, which has been growing in size over the last ten years.

The current limited Avanti services are only basically there to keep up the route knowledge of the drivers for when the loop is used as an engineering work diversion.

I had thought something like that would be the reason why.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I don't think they will as their trains are express services and through Northampton station is only 20mph.

The 20 psr is at the south end of the station. A train that stops at Northampton self evidently won't be delayed by it.

I found this and it is definitely not a city, stop trying to polish a turd!

Neither is Milton Keynes...

 

[221101 Voyager]

The 20 psr is at the south end of the station. A train that stops at Northampton self evidently won't be delayed by it.




Neither is Milton Keynes...

About the speeds, I’m saying that the train had to wait until it’s through the 20 limit before it can accelerate and that takes long enough to get through that bit in a 350, let alone a 390.

Milton Keynes is better than Northampton, fact.

Although Milton Keynes isn’t exactly great. But the fact its better, speaks volumes about Northampton.

 

[The Planner]

The population of Northampton is around 220,000. Add in the increasing number of students for the University, which has been growing in size over the last ten years.

The current limited Avanti services are only basically there to keep up the route knowledge of the drivers for when the loop is used as an engineering work diversion.

Which is a standard timetable event covered by the 2305-1200 Sunday morning blocks.

About the speeds, I’m saying that the train had to wait until it’s through the 20 limit before it can accelerate and that takes long enough to get through that bit in a 350, let alone a 390.

The 20mph is irrelevant though as all trains have that issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milton Keynes is better than Northampton, fact.

In terms of serving it it certainly has higher travel demand and will get higher still. It's also helpfully on the mainline.