Avanti West Coast Withdraws Shrewsbury Service From June 2024

[norbitonflyer]

I can think of a whole bundle of counties that don't have a direct service to London.

Shropshire will be the only ENGLISH county without a direct service to London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shropshire will be the only ENGLISH county without a direct service to London.

Does Rutland have one?

OK, extreme example, I think all the others indeed do.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Does Rutland have one?

OK, extreme example, I think all the others indeed do.

As we discovered yesterday it does - a daily Oakham to London service.

The Isle of Wight is an English country with no direct service to London for fairly obvious reasons.

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder how long the Wrexham extension has before that also faces the axe. Assuming TfW can plug the missing gap by diverting the 1826 Holyhead to Crewe service to Shrewsbury

The Wrexham service isn't quite as inefficient as the Shrewsbury one as Wrexham is only 12 miles from Chester.

 

[GoneSouth]

It’s a lot easier to take a family out to Euston on a train than any sort of car! Try any family of 5+ with luggage and space in a normal sized car.

Easier it might be, good value for money/affordable it certainly isn’t (sadly)

 

[Hellboydce]

It’s a terrible service which is always the first to be caped

 

[robspaceman]

It’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation. people don’t expect a through London service because there’s simply not a frequent or reliable one. If a service is only offered at a single peak time journey with, as has been discussed, extortionate fares for ‘normal’ passengers, and if it’s cancelled so often that it can’t be relied upon anyway, then a regular passenger base is not going to be built up.

Much smaller towns than Shrewsbury and telford (which have a combined population of 200,000+) have regular London services, often because they happen to be on mainline routes. Eg Macclesfield. Lucky them I guess.

Operationally it’s not as tricky as it used to be with requiring the loco change at brum/wolves, but it’s clearly not ideal that there are no wires from wolves.

 

[jagardner1984]

Completely agree on the family point. Travelled yesterday with the family (2 adults, 2 kids) up to Bournville from near London. M1 clogged all the way as you’d expect. Lots of demand. (In our economy scratching its head about growth and productivity, many many Lorries barely getting past 20mph on average). And yet unthinkable to travel by rail as it was pricier to the tune of several hundred quid, a consequence of years of government failure on growth to build capacity, and of demand suppression through pricing. (As a small side point, seems to me there is some merit for family travel in a “flexi return” - where you lock in an outward train at Advance type prices, but can return on any train, since for us (and I’d guess for many) trying to precisely time an excursion was wildly restrictive, and the off peak return still carried a healthy penalty cost wise).

As for the withdrawal of this one, presumably a combination of Civil servants and Avanti have been asked to draw up a list of services which cost the most and would affect the least if withdrawn. And in that sense, if you are removing something to save costs, it makes sense to remove the one(s) from the top of the list. I wonder what other services may be on it where it is all much simpler to leave the unit in the depot a bit longer. A managed decline that is all very sad to see.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Completely agree on the family point. Travelled yesterday with the family (2 adults, 2 kids) up to Bournville from near London. M1 clogged all the way as you’d expect. Lots of demand. (In our economy scratching its head about growth and productivity, many many Lorries barely getting past 20mph on average). And yet unthinkable to travel by rail as it was pricier to the tune of several hundred quid, a consequence of years of government failure on growth to build capacity, and of demand suppression through pricing.

As for the withdrawal of this one, presumably a combination of Civil servants and Avanti have been asked to draw up a list of services which cost the most and would affect the least if withdrawn. And in that sense, if you are removing something to save costs, it makes sense to remove the one(s) from the top of the list. I wonder what other services may be on it where it is all much simpler to leave the unit in the depot a bit longer. A managed decline that is all very sad to see.

Firstly, it's simply not possible that many lorries weren't getting above 20mph for the whole London to Birmingham journey & fail to do so regularly.
But to flip the main point on its head, is it not much better to withdraw a very lightly used service and make better use of the paths? And instead of heavily subsidising just one lightly used train, do something that benefits more people with the money? Given lots of operators have had a crack at running this service and not one of them has been able to make a go of it, leads me to think there simply isn't a demand for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much smaller towns than Shrewsbury and telford (which have a combined population of 200,000+) have regular London services, often because they happen to be on mainline routes. Eg Macclesfield. Lucky them I guess.

Yep. If we closed or removed London services from stations which wouldn't justify them if they stood alone then we'd close half the network. Of course places receive a better public transport service if it can effectively be provided marginally.

 

[aar0]

I can think of at least one large multinational with offices in London and Shrewsbury which was a user of this service and will be disappointed by its removal. It’s all well and good saying it’s faster with a change now, but how often do you want to get off your warm intercity train, then stand in the cold for a delayed commuter service?

Does Shrewsbury have an airport?

 

[Iskra]

The fact that two operators have now withdrawn from a Shrewsbury route, says a lot. Not everywhere needs a direct train to London and the resources can be better used elsewhere.

 

[DarloRich]

Is this not what should happen? A new service is tried, it doesn't work and is so withdrawn so the resources can be used elsewhere? Is this not the market in action?

 

[Deafdoggie]

The fact that two operators have now withdrawn from a Shrewsbury route, says a lot. Not everywhere needs a direct train to London and the resources can be better used elsewhere.

It is more than that. BR tried it first. Then Virgin. Then the private open access one whose name I forget, then Avanti. Not one of them could make a go of it.

Is this not what should happen? A new service is tried, it doesn't work and is so withdrawn so the resources can be used elsewhere? Is this not the market in action?

Exactly. I feel this is a very sensible approach from the railways.How much money should they keep throwing at it? It's been tried, several times, and the perceived demand simply isn't there.

I can think of at least one large multinational with offices in London and Shrewsbury which was a user of this service and will be disappointed by its removal. It’s all well and good saying it’s faster with a change now, but how often do you want to get off your warm intercity train, then stand in the cold for a delayed commuter service?

They clearly weren't using it that much, and "time is money" if they can get their staff between Shrewsbury & London faster that's much better value for money. And, given the timings of the service, they may not have been using the through train anyway. But, I suspect, with Zoom, teams, etc, it's just they don't really need it that much at all.

 

[robspaceman]

This whole saga has prompted me to ponder the following.

It’s generally accepted that subsidy is a ‘public good’ on some loss making rail routes, eg the central wales line and the Cambrian coast would I'm sure soon be culled if it weren’t for subsidy. But this is just for a basic stopping service of course.

Does this (unwritten?) rule of the railway exist only for branch lines and a basic service, or does it exist anywhere in terms of a direct London ‘express’ service? (Ie a decent direct London service being seen as a public good for population centres of a certain size, even if the route is loss making and without it people would still be able to get to London via a connection).

Of course, Shrewsbury’s direct services weren’t a problem when it was simply a stop on the way to Birkenhead or Aberystwyth, but being ‘out on a limb’ in diesel land has done it no favours. I’m sure if under wires it could be operationally convenient in terms of platform space at new street to have Avanti services continuing to a less crowded terminus, as happens for example in Berlin with their intercity services.

 

[Energy]

It is more than that. BR tried it first. Then Virgin. Then the private open access one whose name I forget, then Avanti. Not one of them could make a go of it.

IIRC BR, then Virgin pre pendolino, then WSMR (worth noting that they went via Chiltern and were subsequently rather slow).

Virgin reconned it could make it work by extending a voyager set from Birmingham and targeting business users who could take a meeting in London. Growth stagnated and this market has been massively decreased by Teams and Zoom.

 

[victormildrew]

until they can resource their core timetable it probably is the right thing to do. I don’t know for example how much time they need to spend keeping crew knowledge up to date, but I am sure this all makes staff rostering much more challenging. it is a pity but maybe they can look at it again when they have got staff.

It is interesting some of the others routes such as Skipton are not at risk, likewise Cleethorpes (not started) and Middlesbrough still live on. But then LNER at the moment isn’t cancelling as many services because of lack of staff.

Was that services created to kill off Wrexham and Shropshire railway?

I suspect if the service was more frequent it would do well (Look at Lincoln) - But then it would probably need to take some of the paths From London Midland.

One per day services are not evil, I can’t remember how often BR used to serve the town, back in the day it went to Aberystwyth, But I think there was more than one service.

Aberystwyth To Euston, I think it used to be 09.49 from Shrewsbury, with first class attached at Shrewsbury. in all, six trains per day to Euston and back.

Which isn't that convenient coming off the Cambrian, as I do. At the times I travel it is much better and easier changing at Birmingham New St on the way to London and International on the way back

How did you manage to catch the 07.04 to Euston from Shrewsbury off the the cambrian when it's booked to arrive at Shrewsbury at 07.07?.

 

[A S Leib]

Which isn't that convenient coming off the Cambrian, as I do. At the times I travel it is much better and easier changing at Birmingham New St on the way to London and International on the way back

Agreed, although I've used Wolverhampton when a Watford / Milton Keynes train from there was conveniently timed.

What are the barriers to having the Trent Valley stopper reversing at Crewe and LNR / WMT taking over the Shrewsbury – Crewe stopper from TfW?

• Euston – Crewe completely electrified but Crewe – Shrewsbury not and no LNR bi-modes
• Reliability of Manchester – Cardiff services
• Likelihood that Manchester / Liverpool would be more popular destinations

Any other reasons against it?

 

[Energy]

What are the barriers to having the Trent Valley stopper reversing at Crewe and LNR / WMT taking over the Shrewsbury – Crewe stopper from TfW?

Electrification for a start. I'd imagine a 12 car 350 is rather overkill.

 

[AlanL]

I can think of at least one large multinational with offices in London and Shrewsbury which was a user of this service and will be disappointed by its removal. It’s all well and good saying it’s faster with a change now, but how often do you want to get off your warm intercity train, then stand in the cold for a delayed commuter service?

Does Shrewsbury have an airport?

completely agree - this was managed decline by the Dft/Avanti, there has been no marketing/specialoffers/publicity and added to that a service with only peak hour trains with huge fares which were regularly fully cancelled or part cancelled at Wolverhampton.

 

[JW4]

deleted

 

[aar0]

They clearly weren't using it that much, and "time is money" if they can get their staff between Shrewsbury & London faster that's much better value for money. And, given the timings of the service, they may not have been using the through train anyway. But, I suspect, with Zoom, teams, etc, it's just they don't really need it that much at all.

A huge amount is done on teams, yes. But high level stuff is better in person (and indeed there’s lots to be gained in visiting an office in person and having a casual chat over a coffee, even with junior staff. Said company sends people to different offices to meet their colleagues throughout their career). Time is money but you can work on the train, you can’t work while standing on a platform.

 

[Bald Rick]

And yet unthinkable to travel by rail as it was pricier to the tune of several hundred quid, a consequence of years of government failure on growth to build capacity,

You‘ve hit the nail on the head. Capacity is being wasted in running empty trains to places with little demand (such as direct trains from London to Shrewsbury), and not running longer trainswhere there is demand (eg London to Birmingham, for Bournville).

Interestingly, I’ve just done a random check of ticket prices for a family of 4 from Euston to Bournville next week on a day trip, leaving London around 10 and Bournville around 1900. Total cost £27, or if you want to use Avanti both ways (and thus do it in around 1h45 each way) it’s less than £60. Compared to the M1, M6 and A38 i know which I’d do…

 

[GoneSouth]

That can’t be for all 4 of you, surely that’s per person. Cheap is honestly not the norm!

Family of 3 going Bristol to Leeds return, well over 300 quid. For a bit of inconvenience driving around Birmingham, I know which I’d rather do. Save myself hundreds of pounds!

Edit: Correction, it’s actually 428 quid, even more ludicrous than I first thought.

 

[Kite159]

Agreed, although I've used Wolverhampton when a Watford / Milton Keynes train from there was conveniently timed.

What are the barriers to having the Trent Valley stopper reversing at Crewe and LNR / WMT taking over the Shrewsbury – Crewe stopper from TfW?

• Euston – Crewe completely electrified but Crewe – Shrewsbury not and no LNR bi-modes
• Reliability of Manchester – Cardiff services
• Likelihood that Manchester / Liverpool would be more popular destinations

Any other reasons against it?

8 coach 350 being completely overkill for the line, especially the stoppers which were previously in the hands of a 153.

 

[Bald Rick]

That can’t be for all 4 of you, surely that’s per person. Cheap is honestly not the norm!

It was indeed for all 4.

Family of 3 going Bristol to Leeds return, well over 300 quid. For a bit of inconvenience driving around Birmingham, I know which I’d rather do. Save myself hundreds of pounds!

Edit: Correction, it’s actually 428 quid, even more ludicrous than I first thought.

I‘ve just priced a day trip return Bristol to Leeds, 2 adults, 1 child, family railcard, next Wednesday under £140.

Not sure how you are geting those prices.

 

[jagardner1984]

It was indeed for all 4.

Sure. You have illustrated my point perfectly. If you are prepared to play the railway’s very specific game at very specific times, there are absolutely bargains to be found and I would never suggest otherwise. However, as I’m sure many a parent can recognise, 5 year olds are unpredictable at the best of times - and being stuck many miles from home for many hours past the end of their fun, arriving back at Euston at 2150 (not even near the final destination) is not real life, not matter how much more convenient it would be for the operators to fill those evening trains.

The simple fact was that in my specific instance (which I’d think was far from unique) at the moment where a few days ahead of travel, when the “that would be a fun half term activity” was booked, the rail option was prohibitively and obviously significantly more expensive than travelling by road.

For those who got a bargain in such circumstances, brilliant, but for the rest of us, I don’t think the pricing structures for both Road and Rail and serious in incentivising the supposed desires for people to leave their cars at home.

One side benefit of introducing some form of road pricing would be it would give clear statistics of the modal usage - for example those towns poorly served for one reason or another (either on speed or frequency or both) - whereby there is untapped rail demand.

 

[Bald Rick]

Sure. You have illustrated my point perfectly. If you are prepared to play the railway’s very specific game at very specific times, there are absolutely bargains to be found and I would never suggest otherwise. However, as I’m sure many a parent can recognise, 5 year olds are unpredictable at the best of times - and being stuck many miles from home for many hours past the end of their fun, arriving back at Euston at 2150 (not even near the final destination) is not real life, not matter how much more convenient it would be for the operators to fill those evening trains.

The simple fact was that in my specific instance (which I’d think was far from unique) at the moment where a few days ahead of travel, when the “that would be a fun half term activity” was booked, the rail option was prohibitively and obviously significantly more expensive than travelling by road.

For those who got a bargain in such circumstances, brilliant, but for the rest of us, I don’t think the pricing structures for both Road and Rail and serious in incentivising the supposed desires for people to leave their cars at home.

I’m not going to argue too much (but there is a ‘but’).

The railway can never serve every market, cheaply, all the time. Particularly for groups of people that fit into a car - and the 2+2 kids is a great example. I‘ve posted on these pages multiple times how I would routinely use the car for journeys that could be done by rail, even though I and my family get free travel. Sometimes the flexibility of the car with a one seat ride, or the carrying capacity, or the need for a car the other end, simply outweigh any cost saving.

However I think most people would agree that offering cheap tickets for what could be very busy trains is not ideal. The railway - indeed any transport system - has limited caapcity and it is in the interests of all of us who pay for it to make best use of it, and that means either variable pricing to encourage use of that capacity at less busy times (which the airlines do well), or heavy congestion at peak times (see the road network), or somewhere in between (railways).

The ‘but‘ is your London to Bournville trip. The off peak return, flexible, for 2 adults and two children with family railcard is £112 total. You could decide to do that any day at a moment’s notice. So I’m not sure where you get the ‘several hundred quid’ price difference, even if you had to buy the railcard, unless you were want to travel out in the morning peak (where I can testify as a regular user, trains between London and Birmingham are busy). And while £112 might seem expensive, in my view for a family of 4 it is quite reasonable for that journey, and for many families would certainly be preferable to the M1 and M6.

 

[jagardner1984]

I’m not going to argue too much (but there is a ‘but’).

The railway can never serve every market, cheaply, all the time. Particularly for groups of people that fit into a car - and the 2+2 kids is a great example. I‘ve posted on these pages multiple times how I would routinely use the car for journeys that could be done by rail, even though I and my family get free travel. Sometimes the flexibility of the car with a one seat ride, or the carrying capacity, or the need for a car the other end, simply outweigh any cost saving.

However I think most people would agree that offering cheap tickets for what could be very busy trains is not ideal. The railway - indeed any transport system - has limited caapcity and it is in the interests of all of us who pay for it to make best use of it, and that means either variable pricing to encourage use of that capacity at less busy times (which the airlines do well), or heavy congestion at peak times (see the road network), or somewhere in between (railways).

The ‘but‘ is your London to Bournville trip. The off peak return, flexible, for 2 adults and two children with family railcard is £112 total. You could decide to do that any day at a moment’s notice. So I’m not sure where you get the ‘several hundred quid’ price difference, even if you had to buy the railcard, unless you were want to travel out in the morning peak (where I can testify as a regular user, trains between London and Birmingham are busy). And while £112 might seem expensive, in my view for a family of 4 it is quite reasonable for that journey, and would certainly be preferable to the M1 and M6.

All great point - they don’t have said railcard (probably a good idea for a gift !), and were trying to get to Brum for a fairly normal “half term activity starting time” of 10am - which I would have thought would be against the main flow going into London.

The cost in the end was around a quarter tank of fuel, and obviously there could be a never ending (and very off topic) discussion about the costs of insurance, car choice, depreciation etc.

Obviously most people would do some shopping around and travel at better times to get the best price, but when I simply search for a journey, in the week, to get to Bournville station, for 2 adults and 2 kids, I get offered an anytime return of £445 as the primary ticket choice. (Later trains, which would have not met our needs, but relevant, selling for £158).

I think we sometimes underestimate what a disincentive that initial pricing may be to some passengers. I’m of the opinion we should build sufficient railways, subsidise them and tax road use such that rail travel (and coach etc) is always and obviously the financially prudent choice. Not every passenger is as ticket savvy as some RailUK people (and I’m very glad for lots of the advice I’ve picked up here !).

I’d suggest if on the basis of speed, frequency or cost, if Avanti’s Shrewsbury service is really being subsidised to the tune of 1.4m - there is an incentive missing somewhere. Indeed, if I were theoretically to take my family to see the delights of Shropshire next week on the direct Avanti service this thread relates to, I’m given the tempting price of £523.20 Anytime return. Which is not immediately encouraging me to lay down the car keys and reduce that subsidy.

 

[GoneSouth]

It was indeed for all 4.

View attachment 153041



I‘ve just priced a day trip return Bristol to Leeds, 2 adults, 1 child, family railcard, next Wednesday under £140.

Not sure how you are geting those prices.

Those are for off peak returns with no railcard. Some of us have to travel around work hours and don’t have railcards so expensive is the norm

Don’t get me wrong, rail would always be my preference but a lot of the time the cost is too prohibitive for many people