• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Aviemore incident 29/9/23

Status
Not open for further replies.

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
3,638
View attachment 143842Disclaimer: I have been passed this on WhatsApp so cannot verify authenticity, though it looks very much like Aviemore, Flying Scotsman and the Royal Scotsman to me.
Makes me wonder if they were looking at the end of the coach on the adjacent track, and thinking they were heading for that, while the end of the Royal Scotsman rake was obscured by the tender. That long white picket fence doesn't offer many landmarks as to exactly how far along you are.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

dakta

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2008
Messages
577
I didn't notice that, I was amused at the fact they got an eyewitness account who wasn't there when it happened, went off for a meal and only themselves realised something had happened when a friend told them to check the news

It deserves a thread of it's own (I think there has been one actually) but I used to really like the local rags (even the ones that aren't so local to me). Proper toilet now, I still can't get over the coffee shop one - we paid one of our journalists to visit a speciality coffee shop and they went and had a coke because they'd 'already had a coffee when they got up that morning'

Just come off facebook because someone in a local group took umbrage with me and insulted me in the most humiliating way by laughing at the way I come across as educated (I swear on my life I'm not as I ain't). In fact I'm very much the other way I can't make sense of it . Humanity is malfunctioningg will someone get me off this ride
 

John Love NB

Member
Joined
7 Sep 2023
Messages
6
Location
Musselburgh
Well one thing I've learned: It's now the Railway Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) that investigates railway accidents, rather than His (Her) Majesty's Railway Inspectorate (HMRI), who investigated them for a century and half. Anyway whoever investigates this one (and I reckon the Strathspey Railway must have an internal investigation) they really must have access to that video. It leaves little doubt that the primary cause is driver error. There doesn't seem to be any sign of the brake being applied. My own recommendation would be that there should have been someone on the ground giving handsignals. Preferably on the driver's side. This also raises the question who was driving. Somebody posted earlier that Flying Scotsman has its own full time driver. But he wouldn't be familiar with the Strathspey line. So, assuming the same ways of working still apply as they did when I was a railwayman, he should have "obtain[ed] the services of a competent conductor", i.e. a Strathspey Railway driver, who would have a good idea of where you have to slow down when coming on top of a train.

One unusual feature of class A3 locomotives used to be that they had no direct steam brake. You had to use the vacuum brake even when running light. Which of course means that the ejector must be working, even when running light. (I suppose you could get the fireman to use the tender hand brake.) I don't know how much of this still applies to Flying Scotsman; maybe 60103 is dual braked now! But it could be a cause of confusion for a driver not used to driving an A3.

I think some of you are being a bit harsh on those who raised the alarm. I think there's a good chance the 999 call was made by someone who was on the train, perhaps catering staff. Even a low speed collision can feel much worse when you're actually in the train. Imagine what you would think if you were in that catering vehicle when all that stuff fell down! The people injured must have been inside the train (or possibly on the engine footplate).

I once was in a low speed collision. I was the guard of a train bringing 40 empty coal wagons from Ravenscraig to Cardowan Colliery. The normal arrangement there was that I'd couple off the brake van on the main line. Then, when the ground signal came off, I'd signal to the driver to come back quite vigorously so as to kick my van into one road. The driver would then slow down, and a member of the Coal Board surface staff would pull the points so that the empty wagons would go into an empty road. Normally I'd run my van down on top of some loaded wagons of call ready to take a second train of coal to Ravenscraig. But on this occasion there was some sort of misunderstanding, and other Coal Board staff were running five or six loaded coal wagons into the exchange sidings. So, instead of running my van right down into the exchange sidings on top of the loaded wagons in the sidings, I had to try to stop it in a fairly short crossover, fast enough and far enough to clear my own train coming in on my left, but before I reached the wagons being run down on my right. The situation was complicated at Cardowan because, as soon as I passed the signal box and went into the colliery, I was out of sight of my driver, still on the main line. Both I and the colliery staff had to rely on the signalman to pass on our handsignals to my driver. Of course we wanted to get the train off the main line, because there was a DMU every half hour from Cumbernauld to Springburn. Well I nearly made it. I got it clear of the crossing on my left and frantically started to screw the brake on before I hit the wagons in front of me. When it hit them, the van was moving very slowly, but it wasn't quite stopped. I think I'll always remember the sound of splintering wood as my van hit them. Then, almost in slow motion, the front of the van lifted off the rails and dropped down into the four foot. I'm glad I was going very slowly because, if I'd hit them going faster, the wagons would have tipped over and crushed the men who were running them down. You don't survive a loaded coal wagon falling on top of you. The brake van was an old pre-nationalisation ex-L.M.S. one with an M73xxxx number. (We called them Caley vans.) Having felt the collision and heard the splintering wood, I was sure it would be condemned, and, being the kind of person that I am, I felt kind of bad about that. But, as I said, it feels worse when you're in the train. In fact it was rerailed, and repaired for £70, and went back into traffic. The C & W repairer fitted a new footstep -- that's all that was wrong with it. Sometimes derailments in sidings would be fixed by local staff without telling anyone. But in this case I felt I had to tell the Control what had happened, as, without my brake van, I couldn't continue working. And anyway I felt a bit shaken. But not as bad as the men who were running the wagons down -- they were shaking like leaves! When my van hit their wagons, they thought the wagons would tip over on top of them. As they were working the brakes on the far side of the wagons, they didn't know we were there at all until my van hit their wagons. So it was a very minor accident. But it could so easily have been a tragedy.

. . . All that is a very long digression, but you get the idea. The collision feels much worse when you're in the train.

AFAIK Belmond is the firm that owns (or at least runs) the Royal Scotsman train. As for press coverage, it always has struck me that press reports on railway accidents were always written by people who knew nothing at all about railway operating! Do railway enthusiasts (who usually have some grasp of railway operation) never become journalists? That's why I came here today. I wanted to find out what had really happened. When I heard on the BBC that Flying Scotsman had collided with another train, I envisaged a head-on collision on the single line!
 
Last edited:

John Bishop

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2018
Messages
585
Location
Perth
View attachment 143842Disclaimer: I have been passed this on WhatsApp so cannot verify authenticity, though it looks very much like Aviemore, Flying Scotsman and the Royal Scotsman to me.
Coming in at a fair lick there. I’m sure the fireman shouted over to the driver as they were passing the camera, “Gentle!” ?
Anyone else hear that?
 

chuff chuff

Member
Joined
25 Sep 2018
Messages
461
Coming in at a fair lick there. I’m sure the fireman shouted over to the driver as they were passing the camera, “Gentle!” ?
Anyone else hear that?
Yeah dips his head in and says "gentle " maybe needed to be a bit firmer with the gentle.
 

william.martin

On Moderation
Joined
18 Oct 2022
Messages
844
Location
Telford
View attachment 143842Disclaimer: I have been passed this on WhatsApp so cannot verify authenticity, though it looks very much like Aviemore, Flying Scotsman and the Royal Scotsman to me.
I don't think the driver will willingly return back to work after hurting the country's most famous operational steam loco, I bet there would be riots in the staff room!
 

66701GBRF

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2017
Messages
558
If there's nothing else going on it's not much hassle to send assets that aren't in use to a potential incident. If something comes in the meantime they can divert those assets or redeploy them when found that they're not needed.

I’m not saying it was wrong to send that level of response but it could compromise their response to another incident depending on location.
 
Last edited:

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,094
Coming in at a fair lick there. I’m sure the fireman shouted over to the driver as they were passing the camera, “Gentle!” ?
Now if Scotsman had not been converted from right-hand drive (as a number of LNER, and their predecessors, main line engines had been) to left-hand drive, done in 1954 I believe, the fireman looking out round the inside of the bend would have been the driver ... and none of this would have happened.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,664
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
but the sensationalism that came from this has been ridiculous from news agencies.

It could be seen in a more positive way, in that railway accidents are so rare that even a comparatively minor one such as this is automatically headline news (especially when the 'world's most famous locomotive' is involved). Whereas a road accident in Leeds on Friday night which left two teenagers dead was of local interest only, so commonplace (and seemingly acceptable) are such tragedies.
 

Ianigsy

Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,112
Yeah dips his head in and says "gentle " maybe needed to be a bit firmer with the gentle.
It just needs somebody to say “ooh, nasty” in a Leslie Phillips voice.

A few years ago Police Scotland were in trouble over a road collision where a survivor wasn’t located at the time and subsequently died of the combined effect of their injuries and exposure, so I can understand erring on the side of caution. Equally the effects of the Carmont derailment were exacerbated by fire breaking out. Until everybody is accounted for, there’s always the possibility of somebody having been thrown clear of the incident or trapped under wreckage.
 

paul1609

Established Member
Joined
28 Jan 2006
Messages
7,245
Location
Wittersham Kent
Unconfirmed reports suggesting two RS coaches may have to be removed by road for repairs
If that collision had occurred with heritage railway stock I think you would lift the coaches off the bogies. I don't know if the Strathspey has that facilities but with the Scotsman stock I imagine it was always going to be removed by road to a mainline facility.
 

50002Superb

Member
Joined
18 Aug 2021
Messages
850
Location
Nottingham
Coming in at a fair lick there. I’m sure the fireman shouted over to the driver as they were passing the camera, “Gentle!” ?
Anyone else hear that?
Is it just me that thinks he is going way too fast?

I have stood where this was filmed on a few occasions and vividly remember the laboured pace that they reverse on to the rake.
 

Rail Quest

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2023
Messages
295
Location
Cheshire
Assuming that the people on the observation carriage were the ones injured - knowing the railways, I wouldn't be surprised if this would lead to a ban on people being stood in similar style observation carriages when locomotives (specifically steam) couple to it. Just a thought taking everything for gospel.
 

66701GBRF

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2017
Messages
558
I'd like to see the video from that person that was standing pretty much opposite the coupling.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
2,403
Location
SW London
Assuming that the people on the observation carriage were the ones injured - knowing the railways, I wouldn't be surprised if this would lead to a ban on people being stood in similar style observation carriages when locomotives (specifically steam) couple to it. Just a thought taking everything for gospel.
More likely to be in the catering vehicle, as they wouldn't have seen it coming and would suddenly have been surrounded by flying bottles of wine.
 

Robin Edwards

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
371
No it’s never had a “new” boiler. It has at various times run with an original A3 boiler or a slightly modified A4 boiler (which I think is the one that’s in it now maybe..?).

The A1 (Tornado) is the only ER/LNER designed pacific that’s had a brand new boiler, but that’s because the entire machine was brand new.
The 'original' boilers that have been used on 60103 since preservation and to withdrawal in 1960s do not date from 1923 although similarly, they aren't new.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,308
Now if Scotsman had not been converted from right-hand drive (as a number of LNER, and their predecessors, main line engines had been) to left-hand drive, done in 1954 I believe, the fireman looking out round the inside of the bend would have been the driver ... and none of this would have happened.
I’d question why, given the limited visibility with the tender there regardless of inside of the bend, there was nobody on the ground talking him on.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,432
The phrase that immediately came to my mind on seeing the video clip was "amateur hour".

As someone upthread noted, more like coupling up to freight stock in a yard somewhere.
 

wce

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2011
Messages
31
No it’s never had a “new” boiler. It has at various times run with an original A3 boiler or a slightly modified A4 boiler (which I think is the one that’s in it now maybe..?).

The A1 (Tornado) is the only ER/LNER designed pacific that’s had a brand new boiler, but that’s because the entire machine was brand new.
It’s currently got the A3 boiler which is why the first overhaul after becoming part of the national collection was so expensive.
 

Towers

Established Member
Joined
30 Aug 2021
Messages
1,681
Location
UK
Now if Scotsman had not been converted from right-hand drive (as a number of LNER, and their predecessors, main line engines had been) to left-hand drive, done in 1954 I believe, the fireman looking out round the inside of the bend would have been the driver ... and none of this would have happened.
I wonder does this mean that liability is shared between both footplate crew? Bit of a tricky concept to get your head around in the modern age!
 

John Luxton

Established Member
Joined
23 Nov 2014
Messages
1,657
Location
Liverpool
A wee search seems to indicate that Belmond is a brand offering hotels and associated luxury tours. Perhaps the Herald were looking to send an invoice after mentioning the brand...? :lol:
Belmond is the old Sea Containers offshoot Orient Express which was renamed some years ago now.
 
Last edited:

66701GBRF

Member
Joined
3 Jun 2017
Messages
558
Now if Scotsman had not been converted from right-hand drive (as a number of LNER, and their predecessors, main line engines had been) to left-hand drive, done in 1954 I believe, the fireman looking out round the inside of the bend would have been the driver ... and none of this would have happened.
You honestly blaming something done 50 years ago for this incident?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top