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AWS release time

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Brisbane999

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After a TPWS Brake Demand the brakes can only be released after 60 seconds. Can anybody shed any light on why it's 60 seconds.
I was lead to believe it was 'Thinking Time' allocated to the Driver to avoid further mishap from acting in haste.
Is this correct or is the reason more technical based.
 
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ComUtoR

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On some stock I drive; other action needs to be taken before the 60s timer starts
 

sw1ller

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I’m guessing here, but I’d assume it’s so the driver doesn’t just reset it immediately and set back off causing further damage to points or worse. Pretty sure something similar happened on the chiltern line last year with a driver who had quite a number of incidents. Nearly had a head on crash. Probably a relic before the OTMR (like a black box) was installed.
 

O L Leigh

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It’s just an emergency brake application. The train doesn’t know whether this was triggered by the AWS, a break in the door interlock circuit, the driver or some other reason. As such the time-out has nothing to do with the AWS or any other safety system.

I had been given to understand that the time-out was to ensure that the train actually did come to a full stop. Having a time-out also prevents drivers using the emergency brake as just another brake step.
 

D365

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It’s just an emergency brake application. The train doesn’t know whether this was triggered by the AWS, a break in the door interlock circuit, the driver or some other reason. As such the time-out has nothing to do with the AWS or any other safety system.

I had been given to understand that the time-out was to ensure that the train actually did come to a full stop. Having a time-out also prevents drivers using the emergency brake as just another brake step.
The time-out is affected by the AWS/TPWS unit and not by the train system. In effect, what the train ”sees” is the emergency brake (EB) held for a minimum 60 seconds.

On some stock I drive; other action needs to be taken before the 60s timer starts
”AWS Acknowledge” button?
 

TheEdge

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I had been given to understand that the time-out was to ensure that the train actually did come to a full stop. Having a time-out also prevents drivers using the emergency brake as just another brake step.

Interestingly this isn't the case on 755/745.

An emergency brake application made using the brake handle can be taken off before the train stops. It doesn't release immediately so there is significant deceleration but it doesn't need the train to stop to come off.

Useful if you've badly misjudged a station...
 

O L Leigh

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The time-out is affected by the AWS/TPWS unit and not by the train system. In effect, what the train ”sees” is the emergency brake (EB) held for a minimum 60 seconds.

Do you mean the TPWS timer? Yes this is a separate system from the rest of the train, but the expiry of that timer has no bearing on the train’s own emergency brake time-out. You may still need to wait a while longer before being able to release the brake.
 

D365

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Do you mean the TPWS timer? Yes this is a separate system from the rest of the train, but the expiry of that timer has no bearing on the train’s own emergency brake time-out. You may still need to wait a while longer before being able to release the brake.
Ah ok, understood.
 

skyhigh

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Interestingly this isn't the case on 755/745.

An emergency brake application made using the brake handle can be taken off before the train stops. It doesn't release immediately so there is significant deceleration but it doesn't need the train to stop to come off.

Useful if you've badly misjudged a station...
Same on 195/331s.
 

millemille

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The 60 second delay on brake release after an emergency brake application was introduced on older stock when across the industry emergency brake rate was increased to 12%g and the fatigue life for the bogies was shortened by the forces involved in the higher brake rate. To avoid emergency brake being used as a normal service brake step, and the bogie fatigue life running out prematurely, the 60 second delay was introduced so that emergency brake use in service would cause a delay and this would be picked up by the existing delay attribution/monitoring systems and the emergency brake use would come to light and the driver would get a talking to.
 

D365

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The 60 second delay on brake release after an emergency brake application was introduced on older stock when across the industry emergency brake rate was increased to 12%g and the fatigue life for the bogies was shortened by the forces involved in the higher brake rate. To avoid emergency brake being used as a normal service brake step, and the bogie fatigue life running out prematurely, the 60 second delay was introduced so that emergency brake use in service would cause a delay and this would be picked up by the existing delay attribution/monitoring systems and the emergency brake use would come to light and the driver would get a talking to.
Thanks for explaining the justification behind the ”penalty time”. One assumes that is why the delay time on freight vehicles is longer still.
 
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Brisbane999

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The 60 second delay on brake release after an emergency brake application was introduced on older stock when across the industry emergency brake rate was increased to 12%g and the fatigue life for the bogies was shortened by the forces involved in the higher brake rate. To avoid emergency brake being used as a normal service brake step, and the bogie fatigue life running out prematurely, the 60 second delay was introduced so that emergency brake use in service would cause a delay and this would be picked up by the existing delay attribution/monitoring systems and the emergency brake use would come to light and the driver would get a talking to.
Ok so to clarify, upon there being a AWS/ TPWS brake demand, the emergency brake is applied automatically. The above reason is why the brakes remain applied for 60 seconds???
 
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cwjohnstone

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Yes, and again what happens after that is traction dependent. The 700's will display on the DMI an icon; either "SPAD", "OSS" or "AWS" will appear so you know whether you've had a spad, tripped the grids or missed the AWS. Also, digital Dorris will start speaking to you through the speaker above your head just to run salt in the wounds
 

Dieseldriver

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Thanks for explaining the justification behind the ”penalty time”. One assumes that is why the delay time on freight vehicles is longer still.
I don’t understand what you mean in the second part of your post.
TPWS over speed sensors basically have two ‘trigger’ speeds. A higher trigger speed for passenger trains and a lower trigger speed for freight locomotives.
If a TPWS brake activation occurs on any train (whether a passenger train or a freight locomotive) the brake application will be forced for 60 seconds (this means that even if the Driver acknowledges the brake demand and attempts to release the brakes in that time, the system will not allow that brake release to occur until the 60 seconds elapses.
Now your comment about the time delay being longer on freight trains, it’s still a 60 second timeout but, in that 60 seconds the brake pipe throughout the train will be venting to atmosphere and will completely destroy the air. This means that when the 60 seconds has elapsed and the Driver acknowledges the TPWS brake demand to regain control of the brakes, it will now take an even more prolonged amount of time to recharge the whole brake pipe and henceforth release the brakes throughout the train. Whereas on a modern passenger unit, once the Driver regains control of the brake, they are able to instantly release the brakes as the control for the braking system is usually electronic and acts instantaneously.
 

43066

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I don’t understand what you mean in the second part of your post.
TPWS over speed sensors basically have two ‘trigger’ speeds. A higher trigger speed for passenger trains and a lower trigger speed for freight locomotives.
If a TPWS brake activation occurs on any train (whether a passenger train or a freight locomotive) the brake application will be forced for 60 seconds (this means that even if the Driver acknowledges the brake demand and attempts to release the brakes in that time, the system will not allow that brake release to occur until the 60 seconds elapses.
Now your comment about the time delay being longer on freight trains, it’s still a 60 second timeout but, in that 60 seconds the brake pipe throughout the train will be venting to atmosphere and will completely destroy the air. This means that when the 60 seconds has elapsed and the Driver acknowledges the TPWS brake demand to regain control of the brakes, it will now take an even more prolonged amount of time to recharge the whole brake pipe and henceforth release the brakes throughout the train. Whereas on a modern passenger unit, once the Driver regains control of the brake, they are able to instantly release the brakes as the control for the braking system is usually electronic and acts instantaneously.

I’ve been told that the (30 second?) time out from making an emergency brake application (as distinct from a brake demand from either a fail to cancel AWS or, God forbid, banjaxing TPWS grids) was to prevent drivers using it as a notional additional service brake step.

Seems to have been removed in the most modern stock, as I have personally witnessed a class 700 driver put the brake into emergency and then release before stopping. Perhaps because it’s less relevant on stock equipped with a continuously variable brake as opposed to steps.

As always with these questions - concrete info is difficult to come by. It’d be good to hear from anyone who actually *knows* and can quote chapter and verse.
 

aleggatta

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I disagree with this, but happy to hear anything you have to add

TPWS over speed sensors basically have two ‘trigger’ speeds. A higher trigger speed for passenger trains and a lower trigger speed for freight locomotives.

The TPWS grids are in the same place, the signalling system does not know what train is approaching or it’s braking dynamics, only that it is a train. It is true that grids can be placed for the ‘worst’ traction on a specific route, but generally they are at specific distances from signals for the line speed of that stretch of line. The only communication between train and track is a frequency emitted from the grids. From memory they are:
‘train stop normal’
‘Over speed arm normal’
‘over speed trigger normal’
‘train stop reversed’
‘Over speed arm reversed’
‘over speed trigger reversed’

each frequency would be out through a specific TPWS grid

the reversed frequencies being used in areas of bi-directional running.

the train borne equipment for freight locos and multiple units is effectively the same kit. (Subject to version differences and any ETCS system integration variations. The main change to tpws in recent times (except the ETCS implementation variations) was the change with TPWS 4, where the 60 second brake release required a driver to trigger the brake release after the 69 seconds (rather than it just releasing and the driver not placing the brake controller in a brake notch) and the voice message to contact the signaller
 

Flange Squeal

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Yes for one but the other needs a button on the TMS to be pressed and then the 60s will start.
Some of the stock I drive has been retrofitted with the later TPWS, which I guess works similar to your TMS-based system? A red light for a SPAD, or yellow lights for Overspeed or missed AWS, flash on on the TPWS panel itself, while a lady reaffirms that that you’ve been naughty and what you’ve done. To shut her and the alarm up, you have to press the appropriate light that is flashing, which will turn steady. That then starts the 60 seconds, after which you have to simultaneously press that button again at the same time as holding a brake release button to release the brake. An example can be found in this video (should start in right place, otherwise forward to 2m45)

 

MarkyT

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I disagree with this, but happy to hear anything you have to add



The TPWS grids are in the same place, the signalling system does not know what train is approaching or it’s braking dynamics, only that it is a train. It is true that grids can be placed for the ‘worst’ traction on a specific route, but generally they are at specific distances from signals for the line speed of that stretch of line. The only communication between train and track is a frequency emitted from the grids. From memory they are:
‘train stop normal’
‘Over speed arm normal’
‘over speed trigger normal’
‘train stop reversed’
‘Over speed arm reversed’
‘over speed trigger reversed’

each frequency would be out through a specific TPWS grid

the reversed frequencies being used in areas of bi-directional running.

the train borne equipment for freight locos and multiple units is effectively the same kit. (Subject to version differences and any ETCS system integration variations. The main change to tpws in recent times (except the ETCS implementation variations) was the change with TPWS 4, where the 60 second brake release required a driver to trigger the brake release after the 69 seconds (rather than it just releasing and the driver not placing the brake controller in a brake notch) and the voice message to contact the signaller
While the OSS grids are clearly in the same place for each, a freight train will be tripped at a lower speed than a passenger service. TPWS measures speed using an onboard timer, started when the first 'arming' grid is encountered. If the train then reaches the second 'trigger' grid before the timer has expired, then over speed is assumed and a brake demand initiated. The timer on freight locomotives is set to a slightly longer value to account for differences in braking performance, so a lower speed than for passenger trains will count as too fast.
 

Bigfoot

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TPWS measures speed using an onboard timer, started when the first 'arming' grid is encountered. If the train then reaches the second 'trigger' grid before the timer has expired, then over speed is assumed and a brake demand initiated. The timer on freight locomotives is set to a slightly longer value to account for differences in braking performance, so a lower speed than for passenger trains will count as too fast.
Just under 1 second for passengers and 1.5 - 2 for freight. I can't remember the exact millisecond numbers. Passenger is somewhere between 940-980.
 

D365

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I don’t understand what you mean in the second part of your post.
You can ignore that. You’re right that the ”penalty time” for a brake demand doesn’t change. I was getting mixed up with the setting of the Train Stop Override timer.

Just under 1 second for passengers and 1.5 - 2 for freight. I can't remember the exact millisecond numbers. Passenger is somewhere between 940-980.
Yes that’s right. TPWS equipment datasheets give an exact value.
 
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driverd

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It’s just an emergency brake application. The train doesn’t know whether this was triggered by the AWS, a break in the door interlock circuit, the driver or some other reason. As such the time-out has nothing to do with the AWS or any other safety system.

I had been given to understand that the time-out was to ensure that the train actually did come to a full stop. Having a time-out also prevents drivers using the emergency brake as just another brake step.

That's not entirely correct. Most units don't have an emergency time out, while some other stock does. The timer and time out in the case of AWS (as queried by the OP) comes from the TPWS interface. It's important to differentiate here. An AWS brake demand will still cause the red "brake demand" light on the unit to flash. The emergency brake application will still be exactly the same as per a TPWS intervention.

Where a time out for a driver initiated emergency brake is provided, this is to provide thinking time and is usually adjustable.

In most cases, units with a time out wont run the timer for anything other than a driver initiated EB, so a break in train wire 4 wont cause a time out. This may differ for a minority of traction.

Do you mean the TPWS timer? Yes this is a separate system from the rest of the train, but the expiry of that timer has no bearing on the train’s own emergency brake time-out. You may still need to wait a while longer before being able to release the brake.

Again, where a time out is fitted.

The 60 second delay on brake release after an emergency brake application was introduced on older stock when across the industry emergency brake rate was increased to 12%g and the fatigue life for the bogies was shortened by the forces involved in the higher brake rate. To avoid emergency brake being used as a normal service brake step, and the bogie fatigue life running out prematurely, the 60 second delay was introduced so that emergency brake use in service would cause a delay and this would be picked up by the existing delay attribution/monitoring systems and the emergency brake use would come to light and the driver would get a talking to.

So, the current mitigation to an EB application is that the brake isn't releasable until the unit stops. This effectively prevents using emergency as a service brake, as unless you have incredibly precise braking points and god-like judgement of the railhead and trains brake performance, you can't use emergency for anything like an accurate stop.

The TPWS interface time out is to prevent the driver failing to notice the brake application has been due to TPWS/AWS.

To explain this in more detail:
When AWS slow to cancel or TPWS overspeeds/Train stop loops activate, the TPWS unit applies brakes to emergency. There is then a 1 minute timer started, before which the brakes will not release. On older, series 1 TPWS interfaces, the driver must also press the AWS cancel button to release the brake. If this is done after the 1 minute time out, the brake will stay applied until whatever point the the button is pressed.

Compare this to any other EB application. If its a sporadic fault, quite often the brake releases as soon as the train comes to a stand - quite different to the above.

Equally, if the reason is a serious fault, pass com etc, the driver will have to establish the reason for the brake application in order rectify it and to get the brake to release. Again, quite different to the specific circumstances around a TPWS brake demand.

The reason for all this is that TPWS is piggybacked on AWS on the older iteration. Therefore, an AWS brake demand routes through the same interface, even though, in itself, it is not an operational incident. A TPWS brake demand, however, is a serious operational incident. Failure to recognise this, or even worse, a willful reset of the system and failure to report, is a serious violation of the H&S at work act, therefore, the system needs to provide a very unique way of signalling to the driver what has happened.
 
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ComUtoR

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Some of the stock I drive has been retrofitted with the later TPWS, which I guess works similar to your TMS-based system?

Yep. Pretty much the same as explained nicely by cwjohnstone. Cheers for the video. (I couldn't find one for a DMI)

Yes, and again what happens after that is traction dependent. The 700's will display on the DMI an icon; either "SPAD", "OSS" or "AWS" will appear so you know whether you've had a spad, tripped the grids or missed the AWS. Also, digital Dorris will start speaking to you through the speaker above your head just to run salt in the wounds
 
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