I'll let someone else come up with dates, but 1950s OS map here shows the link (if you've not met NLS maps before, the slider at bottom left means you can fade in / out of 'now' satellite view.)
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
B.R. Locomotives over Underground lines?
- Thread starter OldandRambling
- Start date
- Status
I'll let someone else come up with dates, but 1950s OS map here shows the link (if you've not met NLS maps before, the slider at bottom left means you can fade in / out of 'now' satellite view.)
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Not sure, but it is shown on the 1970 ordnance survey map. I would guess it disappeared around the time the coal traffic ended which was around 1970. It must have been a pain to work as it would need to shunt across the Met and Bakerloo tracks
It was certainly in use in the early 1970s as I used to pass it every day as I headed for work at Elstree from St Pancras. Unfortunately the Middleton Press book "St Pancras to St Albans" by Geoff Goslin and J E Conner, while giving several diagrams of this area, doesn't say when the yard closed! I think it was before the electrification works started, and part of the yard was used for engineers trains for a while.
This photo was taken in 1980 (click on the photo to go to the larger original on the Geograph site):
Midland Mainline - West Hampstead
© Copyright Martin Addison and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence.
According to the photographer the goods yard was then being used as a coal yard and also a scrap yard, but not clear if these still used any rail connection by 1980.
The Midland-Metropolitan connection at Finchley Road-West Hampstead was always I believe described as interchange sidings - suitable for the exchange of goods wagons, but not for the through running of trains (looking at the NLS maps, there was no suitable track to permit this).
I expect it was put in when, or soon after, the Metropolitan extended past there, and think it lasted pretty well until the end of freight traffic on the Met in the early 1960s.
I expect it was put in when, or soon after, the Metropolitan extended past there, and think it lasted pretty well until the end of freight traffic on the Met in the early 1960s.
Gloster
Established Member
The London Railway Atlas (4th édition, Brown, Ian Allan, 2015) isn’t entirely clear. The Metropolitan goods yard is given as closing in 1941, but no date is given for the Midland side. However, it could have been seen as a part of the West Hampstead one which closed in 1970: the sidings could then have lived on as engineers’ ones. Nothing is given about a connection between the two.
matt_world2004
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Nov 2014
- Messages
- 4,578
Didn't a silver link class 313 go to turnham green once by accident
Gloster
Established Member
Of peripheral relevance is that the GWR 9700 0-6-0PT built for traffic to Smithfield had LT tripcocks. They also had ATC apparatus that lifted up to avoid the central juice rail.
Snow1964
Established Member
The Midland also had a big coal yard at West Kensington (which curved off the District line at Beaumont Road). I think that saw BR locos until it closed (early 1960s?)
Trains ran via Acton Central (now Overground) the now closed north side of the Gunnersbury triangle, Turnham Green. The coal trains couldn’t climb the dive under road used by District line so had a more gentle route incline to the original centre platforms at Turnham Green (those now used by Piccadilly, but originally built by L&SWR). Must have been a strange sight seeing BR coal trains on Piccadilly line.
Westbound trains from Turnham Green still go uphill and over the coal train route flyover (although it is partly filled in) as the 2 extra tracks added during the quadrupling in 1920s we’re built that way.
Link is hopefully Google aerial photo of the Fishers Lane Area where the old coal train route can be seen between the remaining District and Piccadilly tracks, the rail bridges over Fishers Lane having been removed
www.google.co.uk
Trains ran via Acton Central (now Overground) the now closed north side of the Gunnersbury triangle, Turnham Green. The coal trains couldn’t climb the dive under road used by District line so had a more gentle route incline to the original centre platforms at Turnham Green (those now used by Piccadilly, but originally built by L&SWR). Must have been a strange sight seeing BR coal trains on Piccadilly line.
Westbound trains from Turnham Green still go uphill and over the coal train route flyover (although it is partly filled in) as the 2 extra tracks added during the quadrupling in 1920s we’re built that way.
Link is hopefully Google aerial photo of the Fishers Lane Area where the old coal train route can be seen between the remaining District and Piccadilly tracks, the rail bridges over Fishers Lane having been removed
Fishers Lane Turnham green
www.google.co.uk
David Burrows
Member
- Joined
- 1 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 100
The DMUs on Sunday mornings, which latterly only ran as far as Loughton, returning ECS to Stratford, were formed of the 3 car Lea Valley units, leaving Liverpool St at 0620 & 0654 and used what was platform 12 at Stratford. The 0620 was also shown in the WTT to call at Bow Jn to pick up signalman, presumably one used to live somewhere down the Central Line. The DMUs were not tripcock fitted and the cabs had to be double-manned.
With regard to the freight and shunting workings,and also the summer Sunday excursions from Loughton, in steam days these were worked by J15s, a number of these at Stratford (and Epping sub-shed until that closed on electrification of the Epping-Onger line in November 1957) were fitted with tripcocks for Central Line work. Once diesels took over they were worked by either North British D84xx (all 10 of which were tripcock fitted), BTH D82xx of which only a few were so fitted, with occasionaly the Brush type 2s, some of which were also fitted.
I remember travelling on the 0620 from Liverpool St once when it arrived at the signal approaching the junction at Leyton which was red. The driver contacted the signalman and was apparently told that we shouldn't be there as we were supposed, according to an LT publication, to be a bus due to engineering work! Fortunately the possession was given up after about 40 minutes and we were able to continue, closely followed by the 0654.
According to Gough's "Chronology of the Midland Railway" (Revised edition published 1989) the yard at West Kensington closed on 14th July 1965, although the last train (removing empties, perhaps?) was on the 29th of July that year.
Thanks for this. Do you (or anyone!) know of any diesel examples with dates and loco numbers please?
And does anyone know of any pictures of diesels working the excursions on the Leyton-Loughton part of the Central Line?
I do know that the excursions ran round in the middle platform at Loughton, with the power isolated, and that the trains were restricted to 7 cars of ex LNER stock.
The following thread from 2015 on District Dave's Forum contains some info on DMU workings to Loughton:
https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/25718/loughton-stratford-liverpool-workings-1960s
It also links to an article in a 2008 edition of a newsletter from the Loughton and District Historical Society (starting on the second page of it) which has some info on steam-hauled excursions in the late 50s/early 60s:
http://www.theydon.org.uk/lhs/Downloads/LHS News 178.pdf
https://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/25718/loughton-stratford-liverpool-workings-1960s
It also links to an article in a 2008 edition of a newsletter from the Loughton and District Historical Society (starting on the second page of it) which has some info on steam-hauled excursions in the late 50s/early 60s:
http://www.theydon.org.uk/lhs/Downloads/LHS News 178.pdf
Thanks for these. I've seen them before, but not looked at them for a long time.
I shall now try to find the back copies of Underground News referenced in the District Dave Forum.
I have traced the Buckhurst Hill train mentioned in the Loughton and District Historical Society article, it ran on 8 May 1959, but I've not been able to identify the locomotives. Also, I've not been able to find a Loughton to Southampton, though there was a Black Horse Road to Southampton, via the Tottenham and Hampstead and Kensington Olympia, on 4 May 1960.
Harsig's signalling diagrams include the Metropolitan Railway in 1933, and the Bakerloo Line in 1941 (including the Met from Baker St to Preston Road), both - at https://harsig.org/Metropolitan.php - showing the connection to the exchange sidings with the LMSR at Finchley Road/West Hampstead.
Dstock7080
Established Member
only as far as the Acton Lane substation gap:
AlbertBeale
Established Member
What route did it take from Clapham Junction to Liv St that involved the East London Line???
Gloster
Established Member
According to Six Bells Junction: Balham-Crystal Palace-New Cross Gate-Thames Tunnel-Liverpool Street; return the same way. A change of locos from M7 30322 to J69 68577 took place at New Cross Gate; J15 65440 was used from Liverpool Street.
Strathclyder
Established Member
That's a classic D'oh! moment. How was the unit recovered in the end, I assume another 313 came along and towed it back onto the BR side of the power gap?only as far as the Acton Lane substation gap:
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
LT sent some battery locomotives , but they were unable to do anything with differing couplers etc , so in the end a 31 came from Willesden and Richmond to clear the errant unit. Took a while as you can imagine....
Strathclyder
Established Member
Yeah, quite a rigmarole there to recover the unit to say the least!
Dr_Paul
Established Member
- Joined
- 3 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 1,473
The RAF aerial photographs on the Historic England site come in handy here. This photograph from May 1946 (please note, it's 'upside down' with south at the top) shows the two yards and the zig-zag connection between them -- it must have been a right old bother shunting anything across -- whereas this one from June 1955 shows that the LT sidings on the up side have been removed and there is longer any connection with the Midland yard.
This photograph from 1947 shows the Midland coal-yard at Earls Court, with the line to it coming off the District at West Kensington. Note also Lillie Bridge LT Depot, the bomb damage and the camouflage on the Earl's Court Hall roof.
This one, also from 1947, shows the yard at Kensington High Street and the zig-zag ramp up to it.
- Status