Coming out of Paddington the other day on a circle line underground train, I happen to see a driver at the "wheel" with both hands on a Banana as he peeled it. I thought all trains had dead man handles now? And is this allowed, I mean eating at the wheel? Quite comical but could be serious at the same time.
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Banana at the "wheel"
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bluegoblin7
Established Member
It would have been an S stock. The C stock no longer operate in service, and there is just one trip remaining before they are completely finished on LUL.
I believe it's actually a CTBC .. Combined traction brake controller.
What's the problem with any train driver eating a banana ? 4 or 5 hours driving in one go is a lot I don't see why they can't snack in that time.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
So long as they don't throw the skin out of the window and cause an adhesion incident.
Aha! the true cause reveals itself!
To my knowledge it is impossible to have an s stock moving without the lefthand on the handle.. c stock sadly missed but allowed two handed snacking or tea making
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Driving an LUL train is reffered to as being on the handle (a twist handle in most stock except bakerloo and picc) this twist is the deadman and the tbc or ctbc is moved forward to exelerate and back to brake. If the handle is let go the deadman activates applying a full emergency brake. So i suspect this was a c stock before they went to the scrap yard or a very talented driver on an s stick. As long he was foccused on the road ahead and signals is most important and wirst case he could simply relaese the deadman for an emergency brake. Bananas are a good energy source for drivers as well when tired[/QUOTE]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Driving an LUL train is reffered to as being on the handle (a twist handle in most stock except bakerloo and picc) this twist is the deadman and the tbc or ctbc is moved forward to exelerate and back to brake. If the handle is let go the deadman activates applying a full emergency brake. So i suspect this was a c stock before they went to the scrap yard or a very talented driver on an s stick. As long he was foccused on the road ahead and signals is most important and wirst case he could simply relaese the deadman for an emergency brake. Bananas are a good energy source for drivers as well when tired[/QUOTE]
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Nym
Established Member
Having used modern TBCs as installed on S Stock, I feel compelled to report that I feel it would be possible to drive with one's arm in order to peel or eat a banana, depending on the placement of the TBC in the cab, having not driven S Stock I cannot report directly on this.
I don't know about other stock, but on 95 stock it's certainly posssible to hold the CTBC in a motoring / off / braking position with your knee. I've done this for brief periods as required when I've needed both hands free.
It's not very comfortable and not a position that I would want to use for long. It doesn't compromise the operation of the deadman as the slightest move of the knee will normally cause the deadman to operate.
It used to be possible (don't know if it still is) when the 95 stock were introduced for the CTBC to be wedged in the normal running position by jamming the end of a J door key under the CTBC handle, thus preventing the deadman springing back. I never did this (that's what knees are for!), but there was evidfence of it by the amount of paint that was scraped off the CTBC wher the J key was force in. Virtually every CTBC was marked in this way.
Of course, now that the Northern line is fully auto, T/Ops can just sit back and relax, with both hands free to eat a three course meal if they want to
It's not very comfortable and not a position that I would want to use for long. It doesn't compromise the operation of the deadman as the slightest move of the knee will normally cause the deadman to operate.
It used to be possible (don't know if it still is) when the 95 stock were introduced for the CTBC to be wedged in the normal running position by jamming the end of a J door key under the CTBC handle, thus preventing the deadman springing back. I never did this (that's what knees are for!), but there was evidfence of it by the amount of paint that was scraped off the CTBC wher the J key was force in. Virtually every CTBC was marked in this way.
Of course, now that the Northern line is fully auto, T/Ops can just sit back and relax, with both hands free to eat a three course meal if they want to
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Johnny_w
Member
I was disappointed as I thought this was going to read "I saw a driver putting a banana under the wheels"
Dstock7080
Established Member
I can now confirm what the OP saw, it is posible to eat a banana, or anything, on a C or S Stock while carefully operating the train.
joeykins82
Member
A Sunday roast with all the trimmings?
tsr
Established Member
Trimmings are a bit tricky, as ever, but the basics can be managed with the Combined Two-veg Beef Controller setup, yes.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Shame you're not allowed to have a glass of red with it.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
While stuck in a cab for endless hours of a tedious shift you woud be amazed at the ingenious solutions people come up with.
How did drivers of 72 stock manage to brake without the rheo after the cut out switch had been sealed off for instance.
Nym
Established Member
If you go straight from "Off and Release" down into "LAP" with less than 0.1 seconds in each braking position on the EP brake you can get it straight into using the Westinghouse brake, you need to be good to be able to use that at a station stop though.
My old Instructor Operator used to drive entirely on the Westinghouse brake when he was bored...
I've only ever really used the EP brakes on 72TS other than when I was testing outside of the EP, although there are still ways to cut out the Rheo brakes (but I won't tell)...
My old Instructor Operator used to drive entirely on the Westinghouse brake when he was bored...
I've only ever really used the EP brakes on 72TS other than when I was testing outside of the EP, although there are still ways to cut out the Rheo brakes (but I won't tell)...
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
...yes, let's just say you need to on the ball when you set off afterwards.
Met Driver
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How else do you think drivers make a service Westinghouse application, other than (initially) going straight from O&R to LAP? You can't do it any other way, unless you want to put a fistful of EP in the brake cylinders first and come up in a heap halfway down the platform (and probably get brakes hanging on). It isn't some sort of dark art which only a few are capable of; it is a routine action which must be carried out at least once per trip, by EVERY driver, and usually at the last station before a terminus.
Granted some are better at it than others, and it does require practice and perseverance to use it really accurately, but if you get EP failure coming into a platform or approaching a signal, you have to use the Westinghouse whether you like it or not!
Are or were you a driver, btw?
White shadow
Member
Sorry, could someone explain to me what westinghouse is please? I'm only a simpleton when it come to railway knowledge but I'm trying to understand more!
Nym
Established Member
Of course it's not some kind of dark art, it just requires a bit more skill than using the EP; but with many drivers these days that have passed out since the dual handle stock disappeared when the A Stock and now the C Stock retired, and the increase in reliability of the EP brakes on the remaining conventional stock (When the PASCOM moved from dumping air over to the Max EP, the reliability needed to increase so it's now checked and maintained more vigerously). As a result I've witnessed a far few who at the penultimate stop (Lambeth North usually, when I've been heading down to London Road or with the better half down to the IWM) will just ram it straight over to let some air out on the curves into Lambeth and then pull it straight over into an EP application as soon as they feel it bite.
Having looked at the brake wear rates on 1972TS as well, I can safely say there aren't that many applications made to a stop with the rheo fully cut out (on Westinghouse).
Having looked at the brake wear rates on 1972TS as well, I can safely say there aren't that many applications made to a stop with the rheo fully cut out (on Westinghouse).
Southernrover
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Used to drive round the circle line stopping only on the Westinghouse brake simply to relieve the boredom.
Met Driver
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It's one of two braking systems fitted to virtually all LU passenger trains up to and including the 1972 stock. This is now the last example so-fitted that is still in service. Drivers normally use the EP (electro-pneumatic) brake to slow and stop the train because it is quicker to respond and can be controlled more precisely. However, the EP brake is not failsafe and will cease to work if the electrical supply to the equipment fails. The Westinghouse brake (named after its manufacturer) is provided as a backup - it is purely pneumatic in operation and failsafe. It applies automatically when the pressure in the train line pipe is reduced, either in a controller manner by the driver, or due to the operation of the train's tripcock, deadman valve, or a burst in the pipe, etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not being able to disprove most of the above, I'll stop short of dismissing it as abject nonsense. I will however say that I have never witnessed a train being driven in that manner and would imagine that you actually misinterpreted the sound and feel of the train on those occasions. I've no idea what you mean be 'ramming it straight over' either. If you're referring to the prescribed action required in order to make a routine, service Westinghouse application, then that is quite normal (and you don't have to pause in 'LAP' - you can go straight to service application and make the initial reduction immediately). I've never, EVER, witnessed a colleague deliberately pile an EP application on top of Westinghouse as you've described, and anyone doing that as a matter of course (and I really doubt there is), needs to be spoken to.
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
The way the motors used to' drop out' and with not every one being a Westinghouse fan the other 'method' used to be popular among one or two. Not sure it was actually officially banned either though imagine it would have been frowned upon - or maybe they never twigged and put the increase in wear on the blocks down to WH use.
The other method was common knowledge and would certainly have got a driver into trouble if found out because of the safety implications. One Guard complained that he was always having to pull the driver down and would always close his door before giving the bell in tunnel stations.
The rheo on the 72 MkI and MkII was very unreliable. One of the issues being that a rheo fault on any motor car would affect the rheo on the whole train
Another fault was that when the rho cut out at around 8mph, the EP brake didn't always take over straight away. This would usually mean that a nice controlled braking to the stopping marknormally ended up in the driver having to make a sudden heavy brake application or the train would have overshot.
The rheo on 73 stock was much better because any fault only affected the one motor car, this gave a much smoother, reliable braking. You could approach Hatton X WB at 60 and apply the brakes and make a comfortable, accurate stop every time. At least it was good when the stock first came out, I don't know what it's like these days.
Westinghouse was boring on a 72 compared to a 38 / 59 stock as it generally worked every time! There was more skill to braking on westinghouse on the earlier stock. However, if the westinghouse on that train was a good one and applied and released OK every time, it was a pleasure to use. Many a time I would use it for a whole trip on the Northern line, irrespective of whether I was stopping at an auto or semi, but only if I had complet trust in it.
Westinghouse was ideal on an early turn when drivers had a tendancy to fall asleep. Drive standing up for a while and if that didn't help, then use WH for a few stops. It's surprising how alert you then became!
Met Driver
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The only place on the Picc you'd get anywhere near 60 now is Oakwood - Southgate WB. I've only worked on 73s post refurb but apparently with the extra weight added they are a lot slower than pre refurb. The brakes are still good though. Annoyingly, they did something to the programme machines a few years ago which means the outer and intermediate homes to Hatton X WB only clear on immediate approach (unless the signal operator clears them manually), so you have to bring the speed down well before the top of Crane Bank and can only wind up once WW11a & b drop off as you approach the portal.
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